The Unity Ruleset: Discussion

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Don't like Hyrule temple, you can ban it against Sonic.

Fixed to show why this doesn't work.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Hyrule Temple is broken by a lot more than Sonic.

YI:M is only, very debatably, broken by Dedede against 6 characters.

 

[T-block]

FD has same height as BF/SV.

Yay more false information.

Looking into the Dedede chain grab thing...pretty sure it's false

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

i argue for both pipes and japes so there. they are both great stages without bannable qualities. you're guys arguing it makes DDD better is nulled by the fact that his infinites are now legal so the characters he can walk off there are screwed anyway. these 2 stages also give some of the lower tier characers in the cast like link, zelda, and samus more options as these stages reduce some of there qualities compared to most other stages so this even promotes diversity in character choice since lower tiers would finally have some stages that are more in their favor.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

No they're not.

But a lot of people ignore the rest of the stage and focus on using the cars as a reason for banning it.

@Gea Final Destination.

Not really. FD's blastzones are fairly one the line when compared to BF or SV as well.

Stage Knowledge should be a part of the game, more than all think.

Pictchat should be in <3

As much as I agree with the sentiment, Pictochat is probably the worst example of "Stage knowledge", because no matter how much you know about the stage, random **** will still **** you over.

@OS: Well, I still want to see it.
@Everyone: Stop arguing for stages like Pipes, or Onett, or whatever. It's not going to get us anywhere, and it promotes the idea that we're not doing anything productive. Japes, larger starter lists, more stage bans, FD as CP, maybe even GG/Norfair. These are the things we can start to make a case for. But the rest... Just drop it. It's not helpful at all.

 

[Chuee]

i argue for both pipes and japes so there. they are both great stages without bannable qualities. these 2 stages also give some of the lower tier characers in the cast like link, zelda, and samus more options as these stages reduce some of there qualities compared to most other stages so this even promotes diversity in character choice since lower tiers would finally have some stages that are more in their favor.

huh
I can only see Samus going japes.
Other than that Im not seeing why Link or Zelda would go to pipes or japes.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Ganon would love Japes against characters who kill up.

Mario can pull all kinds of **** in conjunction with the water and klaptraps.

Ivysaur likes the right side of this stages.

Bowser lives forever here.

Could probably go more into depth, but there's a bunch of reasons people might go here. Maybe it's simply where they're most comfortable. There's a player in my region, Iliad, who mains Marth, is ranked, and CPs Rainbow Cruise whenever possible.

 

[Maharba the Mystic]

@chuee

my best friend out in cali is one of the better links around (he mains falco, link, and metaknight. look up pulse131 in norcal) and he was showing me that due to the lack of a fall zone at japes and link's DI capabilites he becomes almost impossible to kill there plus he can camp those edges hard. also his Z-edging allows him to navigate under the stage really well, a kind of pseudo scrooging if you will. you would have to play a link main that is good to understand how link can really own here.

zelda for the fact that her kill moves at pipes rock and she can camp decently well at japes to.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What made you guys decide on 18 and 13 (MK) for the LGL in the one stock re-match?

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm not even going to spend time trying to debate this stuff. They aren't really interested in reason or backing things up with tournament results. Never have been.

The goal of this ruleset isn't to make something competitive. It's a circlejerk of like-minded people making things that they enjoy. It is the inverse of the items-only crowd, and the miniscule attempts at compromise are a mockery of the term.

Kinda this, sans the condescending tone.

The BBR-RC doesn't really need justification for their choices. They are national level TOs that host THE national level tournaments.

They have authority, and will do as they choose.

The question now is how well each player will be able to influence their TO, and from there, if the TO will bring it up in the BBR-RC (which could potentially trigger a change). Alternatively, you could become a national level TO, become a member of the BBR-RC, and make change yourself.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Zelda can't camp.

 

[Tin Man]

Dirt, the point is, there is somewhat an unofficial list of stages that have a more legitimate chance of being considered viable as opposed to others. the discussion for YI:M is literally pale in comparison as to wether Japes and Norfair should be legal. The BBR Made a priority stage list with different levels of counterpicks, as well as different levels of neutrals. This is one of the main reasons why it bothers me to see FD as a starter among the 5 stage starter list (instead of PS1). If one of Rainbow Cruise/Brinstar were to be removed, chances are it would be Rainbow since Brinstar was considered in a higher tier of Counterpicks (level 1) as opposed to Rainbow Cruise (level 2). I realize Delfino isn't OP for DDD. MK wins the match up there, but its still quite an exceptional stage for him against characters he ca Chain Grab. That was all I was trying to say.

One thing I'm also interested in is how it would effect tournaments to have an extremely liberal stage list with 2 stage bans.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Liberal + two stage bans is something I have been advocating for SO LONG. Nobody takes it seriously though. It's ridiculous. Hell, it doesn't even need to be super liberal. This + Japes benefits seriously from 2 stage bans. >.> At a certain point, you even start wanting three (like when you add Norfair).

 

[Supreme Dirt]

We did have 2 stage bans with Norfair and Japes legal, at the Monster Smash. Lots of people commented on how they liked how everyone was picking Norfair.

Whatever, I'll continue to argue for some other stages, and once those are legal, mark my words, I will work to get YI:M legalized.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

LIVE THE DREAM

That is, if we ever manage to get into the thick skulls of some of the people involved... I know that at least Xyro is really very stupid when it comes to issues like starters. No, saying "stupid" is not unfair.

 

[Deleted member]

If Pictochat gets removed(though really, I'm fine with it), then I hope it gets replaced with Norfair.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I really hope all the input regarding "Picto is ****ing stupid" is being noticed... I really should start that compilation...

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I don't bother arguing against Picto.

I get shut down by people in my region with "shut up, learn the stage, it's good for GaW".

 

[Tin Man]

The counter point to 2 stage bans is that a character like Mk can ban 2 of Snakes strongest stages in the matchup (Halberd and FD). Snake bans Rainbow and Brinstar. Now MK can still choose Frigate, and Delfino, but what does Snake have to choose from? Castle Siege, Pictochat, PS1 I would say.

Now its about wether or not the left over stages are conceptually fair for both players. Do they still get good counterpicks?

Now also, the counter argument was that having more stage bans makes the game less about stages, and more about Skill. But heres my question. Not saying I'm siding with any argument here but, is competitive Brawl about minimalizing the amount of influence the stage has? If it was, we'd all be Japanese right?

 

[Gea]

I'm fine with two bans IF our stage list is actually expanded. Otherwise helllllllll no

 

[Supreme Dirt]

So Snake doesn't have enough legal stages.

HMMMMMMMMMMMM.

HOWEVER CAN WE FIX THAT?

 

[san.]

I would only consider 2 stage bans if there are many stages. Isolating the case to just RC and Brinstar (since it's the only reasonable case for me currently) really isn't enough.

I still don't think Brinstar is that amazing (to the point of being a large problem) for MK moreso than the fact that MK is that much more amazing than whatever character you're using.

 

[Overswarm]

You'd have to ask him. I know he plays better on it than many other Diddy mains (although Gnes can do well there)

 

[MK26]

@Everyone: Stop arguing for stages like Pipes, or Onett, or whatever. It's not going to get us anywhere, and it promotes the idea that we're not doing anything productive. Japes, larger starter lists, more stage bans, FD as CP, maybe even GG/Norfair. These are the things we can start to make a case for. But the rest... Just drop it. It's not helpful at all.

This. So much.

Even 9 starters and replacing Picto with Japes is so much better than what we have now.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

This. So much.

Even 9 starters and replacing Picto with Japes is so much better than what we have now.

And going for anything more is greedy and counterproductive, as it'll get people to stop paying attention to us. Hell, even just 7 starters and dropping picto is an improvement.

 

[MK26]

Pretty much anything is an improvement...

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Yeah, let's go after the single thing which I will boycott tournaments over.

7 stage starter list. Now. The arguments have been presented. What is the BBRRC's response?

AlphaZealot
Bizkit
Chibosempai
ESAM
Havok
Keitaro
Radium
t1mmy
The Real Inferno
Xyro

This namesearch brought to you by the letter 7.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

What made you guys decide on 18 and 13 (MK) for the LGL in the one stock re-match?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

All right, just for continuancy's sake, here's a list of things that are almost universally considered (logically almost) improvements and that stand a chance of being implemented without people going on strike:
-FD replaced by PS1/CS/DP in the 5-starter stage list
-using a 7-starter (add PS1/CS)
-(Using a 9-starter (add PS1/CS/DP/Halberd)?)
-Removing Pictochat
-Adding Japes
-(Adding Norfair, or Green Greens)

 

[MK26]

and, assuming the bottom line is fulfilled, 2 stage bans per set

 

[Deleted member]

BPC: Why would you want Green Greens? o_o

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

...Hmm, okay scratch that. Guess I mistook the general opinion on Green Greens... I like Green Greens, lol.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Green Greens isn't too big a problem outside Dedede.

But w/e let's not get off topic.

 

[Xyro77]

All right, just for continuancy's sake, here's a list of things that are almost universally considered (logically almost) improvements and that stand a chance of being implemented without people going on strike:
-FD replaced by PS1/CS/DP in the 5-starter stage list
-using a 7-starter (add PS1/CS)
-(Using a 9-starter (add PS1/CS/DP/Halberd)?)
-Removing Pictochat
-Adding Japes
-(Adding Norfair, or Green Greens)

we will consider SOME of these(90% of them are total BS and wont even be considered). and a strike will have 0% chance of success. The people who have made this rule set run like all of the major events in the usa. you cant boycott them and win. Also, this new ruleset does not control out of country events so those cats can relax.

edit: thanks for making that list though. its easier to improve the ruleset if we know the most wanted items.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

we will consider SOME of these(90% of them are total BS and wont even be considered).

Like? I'll prove you wrong. (The ones in parentheses are the ones I found questionable)

and a strike will have 0% chance of success.

I mean like people will look at the list after you apply the change and say "**** this, this is BBR all over again".

 

[Pierce7d]

Lolmeatriding. Nothing wrong with seconding a call for logic. I'm just pointing out that a lot of people are making claims or implying things that they simply cannot back up at all. I'm just asking you guys to think about it for a minute. There is absolutely nothing wrong with 7 starters or 9 starters, as long as they do their job (which they do, almost regardless of what you put in them) of providing an unbiased starting ground for a matchup. There IS, however, something very wrong with creating a starter list that can allow various characters to force you onto their best stages, and then backing it up with nothing more solid than "Well we want to start on a static stage", without any form of justification for that statement.

EDIT: THANK YOU ALPHICANS


Also, another thing. I suppose it's best not to bring up stuff like this, but I wasn't the only member of the stages forum who was quite frankly outraged that we were, well, completely ignored. On almost every issue.

We showed again and again why FD is a lousy starter, at least when you have 5 starters. You did not listen.
We showed again and again why larger starter lists (7+) are better. You did not listen.
We showed again and again why Picto should be banned. You did not listen.
We showed why two stage bans is a really good idea, at least to the extent that only one stage ban with both RC and Brinstar legal should be reevaluated in favor of looking into multiple stage bans (most out of country people are fairly irked about this one, TBH, and I don't blame them). You did not listen.

So... then the thread comes around, and what do we have? People complaining about Picto. People complaining about RC/Brinstar. People complaining about FD. Geez, you'd think we might be on to something here...

Look, as much as you (TOs, players, whatever) hate to admit it, the Stage Discussion forums are important. We find **** out, we really think about the stagelist, and we get **** done that otherwise would not get done. We try very hard to make this community more competitive and less willing to ban anything on knee-jerk reaction, and we try to get people to think about this stuff. And we get ignored. But as much as you hate to admit it, we know what we are talking about. We're, for the most part, the people who know the very most about the brawl stagelist and how it should develop to push this game in the right direction. And we're sick and tired of getting snubbed. And I think that it's really justified at this point. I mean, for ****'s sake, I personally went around and talked to each and every TO on this list about starters, and I got most of you to agree that FD was a lousy move in a 5-starter stagelist. What changed? I mean, I know Alex is one of the most obstinate opponents of liberal starter or stagelists, but he's gone... who's pushing this agenda?

I'm not done reading the thread yet, and I like the ruleset, but I wanted to just say tat this is possibly the best post I've ever seen from BPC, and I LIKE FD as a neutral (and I play Marth/MK)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

we will consider SOME of these(90% of them are total BS and wont even be considered). and a strike will have 0% chance of success. The people who have made this rule set run like all of the major events in the usa. you cant boycott them and win. Also, this new ruleset does not control out of country events so those cats can relax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AyenRCJ_4Ww

Particularly the last two seconds is the vibe I'm getting here.

 

[MK26]

@bpc: i think the 90% he's referring to are things like adding PTAD or YI:M

also, lol@the last 2 posts

 

[Xyro77]

Like? I'll prove you wrong. (The ones in parentheses are the ones I found questionable)

Dude, you are an extremist when it comes to stages. I refuse to debate with some one who wants FD as a CP or PS2/Distant planet(DP right?) as a starter....ROFL. You done eliminated yourself as a "logic" person long ago.

I mean like people will look at the list after you apply the change and say "**** this, this is BBR all over again".

Thats the good thing about this new ruleset. Its actually is gonna be used/already is used by many TOs. ALL of the major TOs who helped make it are now using it(thats already 10000000x more success than the BBR ruleset.....which literally NO ONE used[well, maybe you]) and since we are willing to make changes anytime we feel like it(we can update it every week if we need to) it will be picked up even more after every update.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

I refuse to debate with some one who wants FD as a CP

I really can't put into words how stupid this statement is.