The Unofficial Offical MLG Ruleset Discussion

[fkacyan]

Protip: Just put every legal stage on random if you're practicing.

 

[Raziek]

^ I do this ALL the time. Sometimes I even disable the neutrals, just to work on my CP's.

 

[Demp]

In all honesty, I've probably played on Green Greens (in a casual setting notwithstanding) more times than most of you have thought "Green Greens"...and I have never seen an exploding apple. Ever. Everybody says "oh, i think i remember seeing an exploding apple that one time", but it's nothing but an urban myth to me at the moment.

I really want somebody to prove me wrong, though. I want to see an apple explode.

I had an exploding apple just today...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Protip: Just put every legal stage on random if you're practicing.

This is what I do.

 

[MK26]

I had an exploding apple just today...

I hate to be a skeptic, but I said 'see', not 'hear about'
Thanks for the heads-up but do you have it on video?

EDIT: lol ENVELOPE

 

[B0NK]

I hate to be a skeptic, but I said 'see', not 'hear about'
Thanks for the heads-up but do you have it on video?

EDIT: lol ENVELOPE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-OADvca7A

Exploding apple at 8:59, very end of the video.

 

[Raziek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-OADvca7A

Exploding apple at 8:59, very end of the video.

Well, I can't say I'd ever seen it before, but there it is. Still, it's incredibly uncommon and you have time to react to the falling apples. I don't think it warrants a stage ban.

 

[Psychoace]

So.... is there going to be an OFFICIAL list anytime soon to clear all of the drama up?

 

[Kitamerby]

Well, I can't say I'd ever seen it before, but there it is. Still, it's incredibly uncommon and you have time to react to the falling apples. I don't think it warrants a stage ban.

Let's leave the individual item settings on. I don't think how rare it is for DDD to throw an item warrants a specific rule dedicated at disabling that option.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

It's been declared before that it wasn't to limit DDD's items, but to make tournaments run faster. It has nothing to do with the character or stages themselves.

 

[Kitamerby]

It's been declared before that it wasn't to limit DDD's items, but to make tournaments run faster. It has nothing to do with the character or stages themselves.

Make them run faster by wasting 2 minutes once you turn on the wii?

The heck? How does it make tournaments run faster?

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Less confusion about which items are to be turned on and the frequency. It's much easier to just put all off.

 

[Kitamerby]

Less confusion about which items are to be turned on and the frequency. It's much easier to just put all off.

Why all off? Why not all on? They don't appear enough to negatively impact a match, just like exploding apples.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

I'm not BBR, so I would think to ask them before me.

However, based on the logic that b/c something has one thing that is rare and random should be banned, Peach should be banned.

 

[MarKO X]

based on the logic that is the MLG ruleset, MK should be banned.

 

[1048576]

you want to know if a hazard is going to appear 10 seconds in advance? that's ridiculous!!!

you have just as much time as your opponent to move away from the hazard as they do to force you into the hazard.

2 seconds is plenty of time


I wouldn't be surprised if people started calling snake a broken stage hazard because he can explode randomly if you hit him without 10 seconds warning

Why do I even bother making points when they are completely missed?

It's not about whether or not you can move out of the way. It's about having to give up the positional advantage you earn based on nothing more than the luck of the draw. Suppose I get you to the edge of the stage. Good for me. Chances are, you're going to take a bit of damage in this exchange. Oh wait, here comes the lava plumes. Lets reset. Later, you force me into the same position. Where's my lava. Of course it doesn't come for me. I'm not lucky. So you get 10-20% on me that was completely unearned.

It works the other way too. If both players are in the middle of the stage and a hazard begins to form on the right side, then whichever player is on the left now has a completely unearned advantage, even though the hazard hasn't appeared yet.

 

[Kitamerby]

Every new lava hazard comes approximately 20-30 seconds after the last lava hazard on a set timer. I forget the exact number.

 

[SGF rocker]

Protip just play as MK then you don't have to worry about stages, and just focus on the MK ditto everyone else u can just spam nado.









































I'm joking.

 

[joeysmash]

Protip just play as MK then you don't have to worry about stages, and just focus on the MK ditto everyone else u can just spam nado.









































I'm joking.

you relize thats what half of the entrees are doing right? lol

 

[SGF rocker]

Yeah that's why I think their will be a new ruleset after orlandos epic failure.

 

[Judo777]

Why do I even bother making points when they are completely missed?

It's not about whether or not you can move out of the way. It's about having to give up the positional advantage you earn based on nothing more than the luck of the draw. Suppose I get you to the edge of the stage. Good for me. Chances are, you're going to take a bit of damage in this exchange. Oh wait, here comes the lava plumes. Lets reset. Later, you force me into the same position. Where's my lava. Of course it doesn't come for me. I'm not lucky. So you get 10-20% on me that was completely unearned.

It works the other way too. If both players are in the middle of the stage and a hazard begins to form on the right side, then whichever player is on the left now has a completely unearned advantage, even though the hazard hasn't appeared yet.

Well hey im mad too! i earned a postitonal advantage on halberd then the laser came and made me give it up! Now im on the edge wheres my laser!? Its not fair i earned a gimp on YI and then the ghost platform came up and saved him! Now i have been gimped where is my ghost platform?!!! This can be said about almost every single non neutral stage..

 

[Raziek]

Why all off? Why not all on? They don't appear enough to negatively impact a match, just like exploding apples.

Umm.... what? Did you just imply that all items on wouldn't negatively affect a match? lolk. I'll be playing Sonic and grabbing everything and winning then.

 

[Ripple]

this is utter nonsense. by some people's logic, radomness is NEVER acceptable. no matter how slight.

and they are so hellbent on their point of view that its laughable.

any stage that has any "unfair" part should be banned. unfair meaning damaging or moving

SV should be banned
YI should be banned and not only because of the ghosts but because of the center platform. it can be a hazard!
Lylat should be banned
delfino should be banned
Castle seige should be banned
halberd, stadium, brinstar. all banned

if fact there are only 2 stags that wouldn't be banned! FD and BF. and FD is considered unfair by many at how many characters are too good on that stage.

we are now left with every game ever being being played on BF. no counter picks.

and this doesn't apply to stages only. by their logic, characters should be banned because of a "random" factor that takes no skill to execute

-luigi should be banned because he trips more often
-DDD -banned
-Peach- banned
G&W-banned
olimar- gone

people need to reconsider their logic

 

[Chuee]

Well, I can't say I'd ever seen it before, but there it is. Still, it's incredibly uncommon and you have time to react to the falling apples. I don't think it warrants a stage ban.

I've seen a match where a kirby Uthrowed his opponent on green greens into an exploding apple. Sorta like MKs with snakes grenade.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_-OADvca7A

Exploding apple at 8:59, very end of the video.

I retract my last point, and barn on Raziek's.

Well, I can't say I'd ever seen it before, but there it is. Still, it's incredibly uncommon and you have time to react to the falling apples. I don't think it warrants a stage ban.

This.

Also, if the lava is able to take your positional advantage... tough luck. You'll gain it back later. Or, you can get risky and either block the lava plume and then respond or jump in the other direction. Et cetera. Again, stage knowledge FTW.

 

[Rog~er]

Pokemon Stadium 2? the fxk?

 

[Kitamerby]

Umm.... what? Did you just imply that all items on wouldn't negatively affect a match? lolk. I'll be playing Sonic and grabbing everything and winning then.

Yes, I am. I am implying that by having all items able to be spawned by King Dedede's Waddle Dee toss, which is achieved by having item spawns set to none without turning any individual item off, it would be just as problematic as exploding apples on green greens. After all, the chances of an important item appearing from an already very rarely used move ending up changing the course of a match is about the same chance of an exploding apple killing a random player, if the apple deaths aren't more common outright.

 

[1048576]

Well hey im mad too! i earned a postitonal advantage on halberd then the laser came and made me give it up! Now im on the edge wheres my laser!? Its not fair i earned a gimp on YI and then the ghost platform came up and saved him! Now i have been gimped where is my ghost platform?!!! This can be said about almost every single non neutral stage..

I'm pretty sure everything on the stage list is fine save YI, Norfair, Delfino, and Pictochat. How long does it take the lazer to fire on Halberd? It seems like a pretty long time.

In general, randomness is bad. Sometimes it must be tolerated because you can't extract it without also removing something good, like a character. It's all a matter of degree I guess. TBH, if judgment hammer was a staple of G-Dub's meta, I'd want him removed from the character list.

 

[Ripple]

In general, randomness is bad. Sometimes it must be tolerated because you can't extract it without also removing something good, like a character. It's all a matter of degree I guess. TBH, if judgment hammer was a staple of G-Dub's meta, I'd want him removed from the character list.

it is a staple of G&W meta game. ask UTD zac. he 9'd ultimate razor 3 or 4 times in a teams match recently. and 4 stocked their team

 

[sunshade]

I'm pretty sure everything on the stage list is fine save YI, Norfair, Delfino, and Pictochat. How long does it take the lazer to fire on Halberd? It seems like a pretty long time.

In general, randomness is bad. Sometimes it must be tolerated because you can't extract it without also removing something good, like a character. It's all a matter of degree I guess. TBH, if judgment hammer was a staple of G-Dub's meta, I'd want him removed from the character list.

Turnips are a stable of the peach metagame. They can randomly have bombs, beamswords, Mr.Saturns, and stitch faces.

Olimars pikmin pluck will randomly give you a pikmin. It is very possible for Olimar to randomly be given the exact color pikmin which will favor him more or less based on a random decision.

Olimar's Pluck and Peach's turnips are staples of their metagame and are random.

Ban peach/olimar or you support randomness.

 

[Judo777]

I'm pretty sure everything on the stage list is fine save YI, Norfair, Delfino, and Pictochat. How long does it take the lazer to fire on Halberd? It seems like a pretty long time.

In general, randomness is bad. Sometimes it must be tolerated because you can't extract it without also removing something good, like a character. It's all a matter of degree I guess. TBH, if judgment hammer was a staple of G-Dub's meta, I'd want him removed from the character list.

Um halberds hazards as far more dangerous than anything on delfino and YI. Id argue they are more dangerous than lava but i wont say that cause its too debatable. That said please dont respond to the lava statement.

And i thought how frequent didnt matter. Thats why PS2 is bad remember even though the stage is normal for 2/3 of a match and there is a 1 in 4 chance that u will get ground phase that isnt very bad at all it doesnt matter cause there could be like 30 seconds where the game physics are changed. The claw on halberd is very dangerous infact it will kill u at like 90 ez. the reason the stage isnt bad is cause u have ridiculous amounts of warning for each hazard.

Also im pretty sure nothing on delfino is random at all im pretty sure it has a set path so whats the issue there.?

Castle siege also has an element of randomness but no one seems to care about that. The stage transformation duration is the same as zeldas trasformation it has no set time. So i could be going for a gimp on olimar and walking him out over the ledge after part 3's transformation and try to time my gr to where is he way offstage whenever the floor drops out then have it fail because the stage didnt trasform fast enough then lose the match for it. Thats not fair ban that stage too! (sarcasm)

There is no way to avoid randomness just learn that the random things are always a possibility and try and avoid it. Also lol at turning items on because D3 1 in 8 chance of getting gordos isnt already stupid enough......

 

[T-block]

K there's some pretty silly things coming from both sides here... all in all, randomness is not a good thing. Why would you make the outcome of a match based on luck, rather than skill? There are other ways to test a player's ability to adapt. There are many random things in this game that I would have made not random if I had the choice (Pictochat timings ). I mean, why is Wario Ware banned? It doesn't offer an overwhelming advantage to any small subset of characters, and there are no degenerate strategies like running the loop on it. We ban it because it leads to results that are too random to be consistent.

This is not "random is bad" vs. "random is acceptable". We need to judge things on a case-by-case basis. Most people agree that the randomness in GW/Peach/Olimar/Luigi/D3/etc. is not worth banning an entire character, but it's not as clear when it comes down to stages. We should look at the randomness in a stage and determine how much it can actually affect a match (for Wario Ware it's too much, I argue that for Pictochat it's very infrequent, etc.), and then weigh it against the benefits of keeping the stage.

I'm pretty sure everything on the stage list is fine save YI, Norfair, Delfino, and Pictochat. How long does it take the lazer to fire on Halberd? It seems like a pretty long time.

Wait wait...you think DELFINO should be banned for randomness? I can't even begin to see where you're coming from there. Also, all of the hazards on Halberd give more than enough warning, and you should be able to always predict 100% when they're going to attack.

In general, randomness is bad. Sometimes it must be tolerated because you can't extract it without also removing something good, like a character. It's all a matter of degree I guess.

I fully agree with this, but I think you either overestimate the randomness in some of these stages, or you underestimate the worth of these stages. I've been arguing that the number of times Pictochat has singlehandedly changed the outcome of a match is so small that it's not worth banning it, because it's such a good stage otherwise.

Also im pretty sure nothing on delfino is random at all im pretty sure it has a set path so whats the issue there.?

It's not completely random, but it's not set either. It's like...first stop can be one of two possibilities, second is always this one, third can be one of two, etc. (I don't know the details exactly, but I'm fairly sure that's how it works).

Castle siege also has an element of randomness but no one seems to care about that. The stage transformation duration is the same as zeldas trasformation it has no set time. So i could be going for a gimp on olimar and walking him out over the ledge after part 3's transformation and try to time my gr to where is he way offstage whenever the floor drops out then have it fail because the stage didnt trasform fast enough then lose the match for it. Thats not fair ban that stage too! (sarcasm)

Castle Siege's transformation time isn't actually random - it's dependent on how long the game takes to load the next stage file from the disc. So the transformation would take longer on a Wii with a slower disc reader.

 

[Luxor]

I'm pretty sure everything on the stage list is fine save YI, Norfair, Delfino, and Pictochat. How long does it take the lazer to fire on Halberd? It seems like a pretty long time.

You make me laugh. Yoshi's should be banned?

Um halberds hazards as far more dangerous than anything on delfino and YI. Id argue they are more dangerous than lava but i wont say that cause its too debatable. That said please dont respond to the lava statement.

Halberds hazards are laughable. The laser is easily SDI'ed out of, and there is absolutely no way to get hit by the claw unless you're up stretching your legs or you're being grabbed at just the wrong moment AND you have the lower port.

And i thought how frequent didnt matter. Thats why PS2 is bad remember even though the stage is normal for 2/3 of a match and there is a 1 in 4 chance that u will get ground phase that isnt very bad at all it doesnt matter cause there could be like 30 seconds where the game physics are changed. The claw on halberd is very dangerous infact it will kill u at like 90 ez. the reason the stage isnt bad is cause u have ridiculous amounts of warning for each hazard.

PS2 isn't bad. Once the transformation occurs, there's not even anything random about it. It simply rewards stage knowledge. If you feel like it's unfair because your snake has a hard time on the wind stage, tough luck. That's why it's a CP; it's supposed to change matchups.

Also im pretty sure nothing on delfino is random at all im pretty sure it has a set path so whats the issue there.?

Castle siege also has an element of randomness but no one seems to care about that. The stage transformation duration is the same as zeldas trasformation it has no set time. So i could be going for a gimp on olimar and walking him out over the ledge after part 3's transformation and try to time my gr to where is he way offstage whenever the floor drops out then have it fail because the stage didnt trasform fast enough then lose the match for it. Thats not fair ban that stage too! (sarcasm)

There is no way to avoid randomness just learn that the random things are always a possibility and try and avoid it. Also lol at turning items on because D3 1 in 8 chance of getting gordos isnt already stupid enough......

There's a diagram somewhere of Delfino's transformations.

Here's the thread.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd hard.
Edit2: Got the pic/thread.

 

[Judo777]

You make me laugh. Yoshi's should be banned?


Halberds hazards are laughable. The laser is easily SDI'ed out of, and there is absolutely no way to get hit by the claw unless you're up stretching your legs or you're being grabbed at just the wrong moment AND you have the lower port.



PS2 isn't bad. Once the transformation occurs, there's not even anything random about it. It simply rewards stage knowledge. If you feel like it's unfair because your snake has a hard time on the wind stage, tough luck. That's why it's a CP; it's supposed to change matchups.



There's a diagram somewhere of Delfino's transformations.

Here's the thread.

EDIT: Wow, ninja'd hard.
Edit2: Got the pic/thread.

I think u didnt follow some of my sarcasm. lol i love PS2 i was saying that it was said earlier tat ps2 was bad despite it being a great stage 2/3 of the game and then while i like all the transformations few have a problem with the ground phase.

Also i didnt say that halberds hazards were dangerous i love that stage too but they are more dangerous than.... ghost platform, water and walk offs on 2 partsof the stage 1 of which u can easily avoid ......... which are the only major hazards on the other 2 stages.

And @ tblock yea i knew that it was based on loading time just like zeldas transformation i was just saying that there is no set in game time. And also sometimes the game takes longer to load then others so it is sorta random but i guess i just didnt clarify.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I'm pretty sure everything on the stage list is fine save YI, Norfair, Delfino, and Pictochat. How long does it take the lazer to fire on Halberd? It seems like a pretty long time.

In general, randomness is bad. Sometimes it must be tolerated because you can't extract it without also removing something good, like a character. It's all a matter of degree I guess. TBH, if judgment hammer was a staple of G-Dub's meta, I'd want him removed from the character list.

LOLWUT?

This post confuses me... Wrong on almost every count except the blazingly obvious "randomness is bad".

TBH, the argument here is not "is random bad", it's "how much random should be tolerated". And I honestly think that putting up with a little random which you can easily see coming is an important game skill, even if it screws with your zoning.

 

[adumbrodeus]

You should be using the lava plumes to your advantage, does the stage screw with zoning heavy characters? Yes, but it's reliable in that regard, so it's more a "effects MU" point as opposed to a matter of randomly interfering. Why do you think Ganondorf loves that stage?


It's honestly not so much random as intrusive and different.

 

[MarKO X]

Why do you think Ganondorf loves that stage?

Because Ganon is the king of evil and Norfair most closely resembles hell.

 

[1048576]

Well at this point its opinion vs. opinion, so I'm not going to keep posting unless someone says something factually wrong or poses a blatant strawman (ban Olimar lol wtf?) I just hope that nobody loses $3,000 because we have such a large starter stage list full of random hazards.

Also, I'd like to again point out that just because a hazard does not hit or directly interact with any player doesn't mean it did not affect the match.

 

[rPSIvysaur]

Also, I'd like to again point out that just because a hazard does not hit or directly interact with any player doesn't mean it did not affect the match.

Yeah, and that's what counterpicking is supposed to do.

 

[fkacyan]

People who dislike Norfair need to realize that the main issue many people who banned it have is not so much with the randomness of the stage, and more with the nearly-ever-present hazards.

Norfair doesn't have anything happen fast enough that you can't react to it.