Meta "This is the Monado's Power" - Metagame Discussion

[KiraFlax]

if i press downb then forward it does the fast counter?

 

[Berserker.]

if i press downb then forward it does the fast counter?

Yep

 

[Masonomace]

You guys do realize that you can actually back slash Luma on the back right? Just saying
You can also back slash Pac Man's hydrant's... back...

I did not know Back Slash applied to Luma & the hydrant like that. Items / minions don't discriminate~

I guess we can just confirm that Back Slash does this to every minion-type of character such as the Pikmins etc. Which is always good, especially for the Priority rule.

Projectiles in general, in this case, minions thrown or not, are apart of the Priority rule, which is when a move is 9% stronger than another move, it out-strengthens that attack having more priority. No clanks, no clashes, straight-up powers through it.

So Back Slash hitting the minion's back such as Luma or Pikmins, or Back Slash hitting from the front area with the Hilt / Base coming downward airborne, could out-prioritize a projectile.

 

[CupofT]

I have much fun Back Slashing the sandbag while waiting for matches to start. 10 damage in front, 16 back if my memory is right.

Small report on my Air Slash usage (apologies if all this has been discussed and known):
1. if both Shulk and his opponent are recovering to the same side of the stage, if the opponent does a normal get up you can catch them with the second hit of Air Slash.
2. playing too much ZSS has caused me to attempt to chase opponents to the top of the screen and try to grab a star KO with Up-B. Works best for those who do not know the MU, do not air dodge effectively, or are doing dumb things in the air.

Not good at actively changing stances so not much I can say other than "I'm not really feeling it" (A.K.A I'm bad at this game). Number one on my list is doing raw Air Slashes in Jump stance. Like how Marth's do in Melee sometimes.

 

[KiraFlax]

so if i press down b then forward when i get hit it will do the fast counter?

 

[Berserker.]

so if i press down b then forward when i get hit it will do the fast counter?

Er... you asked this twice

 

[Masonomace]

so if i press down b then forward when i get hit it will do the fast counter?

Yeah that's it. Wherever Shulk is facing, hold toward that direction on the circle pad

Here's a rough sketch of time frame input:
+ > Wait for the attack to activate your parry > then hold or , depending where you're facing.

For a in-depth scenario, (and @ Berserker. stop me if I'm wrong here) but let's say if you're facing away with them behind you & you input Vision to parry their attack. When your Vision procs, hold toward them. You may need to wait just a tiny moment longer for Shulk to turn around first, but yeah hope that helps.

Btw if you have questions Kira, ask in the Q & A thread.

 

[Berserker.]

Just QCF (Quarter circle forward) to wherever the player is once you triggered the counter

then things happen

 

[erico9001]

I would like to provide some input on the custom monado arts.

Decisive Monado Arts -
A couple of times I wanted to use Jump to recover (while plain Shulk), but I died. Decisive MA mostly gets rid of the option to use Jump to recover, unless if you use it early and with no active monado art. Even if you do recover with Jump, you still face issues afterwards. It's not a great idea to be in Jump at high damage (unless you have intent to gimp the opponent) since it increases knockback taken. If you had to use Jump to recover, you likely were at high damage and then, unfortunately, you can't cancel it. Well, using Monado Jump to recover isn't a great decision, but what else is there?

Buster and Smash are troublesome with Decisive Arts. You can't cancel Buster if the momentum turns to the opponent, and neither can you cancel it if you want to have knockback. Really, buster is a bust with Deisive Arts. Not being able to cancel Smash would be troublesome for when you actually do kill the opponent and they respawn.

The last downside I see is Shield not cancelling might be bad for recovery, since I usually cancel it and go to Jump when I've been hit off the stage (4 presses)

The major benefit to Decisive Monado Arts is it increases the positive effects of arts without increasing the negative effects. Specifically, this would help with Monado Shield (assuming you're not knocked off the stage), Speed, and gimping with Jump.

Hyper Monado Arts -
Monado Buster seems much improved in Hyper Monado Arts. You just quickly activate it when you have momentum so that you can quickly deal out a lot of damage. The lowered knockback should help even more with combos, allowing you to continue using combos when the opponent is at higher percents. By the time the momentum has shifted back against you, the art might already be cancelled.

I'm not sure if Monado Smash is an improvement or not. Since when in normal monado arts I already only use the Smash when I'm at low damage and the opponent is at high damage, the additional knockback I experience is not that bad. However, once you activate smash you don't have much time to get the KO. It may deactivate before you get a good hit in. The knockback is great if you do, though. I guess I would go for Bairs.

Jump is improved when recovering but may deactivate too soon for gimps. Good for one, possibly two, jumps off of the stage.

Shield is a definite improvement while it lasts, but it unfortunately does not last long. You will be well protected against enemy attacks but not for long. You'll be undefended soon enough, and all the opponent has to do is stall (which is very easy thanks to your slow movements).

Speed - Great on land but bad in the air - you get great grabs, combos, and follow-ups, but gimping is really hurt. Overall, I would say this mode is improved in hyper monado arts as long as you are aware of the lowered jump.

 

[Berserker.]

Hyper Smash is pretty much why I ran HMarts in the tourney. It KO's at ridiculously low %'s but the key to using all Hyper arts is precise timing. Like, use HSmash when they're off the edge and they're guaranteed to get KO'd by f-air or b-air or air slash or u-tilt. I can KO with HSmash F-ait at sub 100%. It's nuts

For HBuster, I use it when I land a grab. Blah. Stuff. HMarts is good stuff

DMarts is good against Mac because you'd wanna stay in shield and speed for a long time

Oh and you can share your opinions in this thread about customs: http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-custom-moveset-discussion.375050

 

[Masonomace]

I would like to provide some input on the custom monado arts.

Decisive Monado Arts -
A couple of times I wanted to use Jump to recover (while plain Shulk), but I died. Decisive MA mostly gets rid of the option to use Jump to recover, unless if you use it early and with no active monado art. Even if you do recover with Jump, you still face issues afterwards. It's not a great idea to be in Jump at high damage (unless you have intent to gimp the opponent) since it increases knockback taken. If you had to use Jump to recover, you likely were at high damage and then, unfortunately, you can't cancel it. Well, using Monado Jump to recover isn't a great decision, but what else is there?

Buster and Smash are troublesome with Decisive Arts. You can't cancel Buster if the momentum turns to the opponent, and neither can you cancel it if you want to have knockback. Really, buster is a bust with Deisive Arts. Not being able to cancel Smash would be troublesome for when you actually do kill the opponent and they respawn.

The last downside I see is Shield not cancelling might be bad for recovery, since I usually cancel it and go to Jump when I've been hit off the stage (4 presses)

The major benefit to Decisive Monado Arts is it increases the positive effects of arts without increasing the negative effects. Specifically, this would help with Monado Shield (assuming you're not knocked off the stage), Speed, and gimping with Jump.

Hyper Monado Arts -
Monado Buster seems much improved in Hyper Monado Arts. You just quickly activate it when you have momentum so that you can quickly deal out a lot of damage. The lowered knockback should help even more with combos, allowing you to continue using combos when the opponent is at higher percents. By the time the momentum has shifted back against you, the art might already be cancelled.

I'm not sure if Monado Smash is an improvement or not. Since when in normal monado arts I already only use the Smash when I'm at low damage and the opponent is at high damage, the additional knockback I experience is not that bad. However, once you activate smash you don't have much time to get the KO. It may deactivate before you get a good hit in. The knockback is great if you do, though. I guess I would go for Bairs.

Jump is improved when recovering but may deactivate too soon for gimps. Good for one, possibly two, jumps off of the stage.

Shield is a definite improvement while it lasts, but it unfortunately does not last long. You will be well protected against enemy attacks but not for long. You'll be undefended soon enough, and all the opponent has to do is stall (which is very easy thanks to your slow movements).

Speed - Great on land but bad in the air - you get great grabs, combos, and follow-ups, but gimping is really hurt. Overall, I would say this mode is improved in hyper monado arts as long as you are aware of the lowered jump.

I can vouch for DMArts off-stage to switch to Jump. . the time it takes for an Art to activate is a long time & waiting for it doesn't help. Though when you're on the ground with DMArts, you're safer for the Arts to activate on their own. I find DMArts better off used for ground-based game-play more than edge-guarding off-stage with, because 20 seconds of Jump is a bit too much time to be suppressed dealing with it on.

I have no input on DBuster, but DSmash when you have the moment of sealing their stock & they revive on platform, you play very safe & find an opening to grab & get them off-stage as quick as you can, & focus on gimping their recovery with the KB boost from DSmash, because that's the best thing you can do with that moment.

DShield is amazing because turtling longer & the boosts make me smile. It's definitely my favoritism using this Art, but what can I say, 20 seconds of stock tanking avoiding anything by rolling away, & mostly traveling by rolling smart, is the way to go for your ground-game holding out your stock. That's all I have to input, since I'll be at the Custom Specials Thread.

 

[Berserker.]

I know I had a HUGE wall of text regarding Rosalina but the true tl;dr of the match up is...

Speed+Aggro nuts

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Is it just me being hopeful or does Shulk feel different in 1.03? Like his fair is bigger range less landing lag and his bair comes out faster. Fsmash almost feels shorter range too.

I dunno I'm tired as hell so I'm probably hallucinating.

 

[Berserker.]

Is it just me being hopeful or does Shulk feel different in 1.03? Like his fair is bigger range less landing lag and his bair comes out faster. Fsmash almost feels shorter range too.

I dunno I'm tired as hell so I'm probably hallucinating.

I dunno. I don't have the 3DS with me atm....

Since I'm helpless, can anyone test this?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is it just me being hopeful or does Shulk feel different in 1.03? Like his fair is bigger range less landing lag and his bair comes out faster. Fsmash almost feels shorter range too.

I dunno I'm tired as hell so I'm probably hallucinating.

I think you might be right on this.

Range on Fsmash is very noticeable right now, I feel like it did hit farther til this patch.

 

[Berserker.]

I think you might be right on this.

Range on Fsmash is very noticeable right now, I feel like it did hit farther til this patch.

Thanks for testing Red

Seriously, a lot of kudos

I got the new patch right now so I'll test also

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Thanks for testing Red

Seriously, a lot of kudos

Im not 100% on this but I'm asking someone who plays Shulk more than I do, I secondary him, to see if he notices a difference.

Fair does seem like it's Brawl Marth fast atm, Fsmash doesn't have that stab I felt like ti did anymore though. I;m gonna dig more into this before I give a 100% on this though.

I do think, imo from feeling, something was changed with Shulk but I'll be testing for full details.

 

[Berserker.]

I tested it

F-air seems faster and the range is slighty longer (I think)


We need direct footage comparisons though....

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

My friend who plays Shulk more than me thinks nothing was changed, I'm not certain on this myself.

Gonna await for data on this like comparison footage.

 

[Berserker.]

Hm.......

Whelp. That's pretty much it. I'll just wait for the comparison footage.

If he feels the same (He does though to be honest) then whatever changes there are, it doesn't really matter than :|



Edit:

I'm not feeling any changes

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Can you guys test out spaced Fsmash slipping out issue in new pach? Multi hit moves may be improved for connecting all hits, curious if it applies to Shulk.

 

[Berserker.]

@ SamuraiPanda

..............

Oh my. It actually connects this time. I don't know. Last time, it didn't connect but... I'm using this against Link btw. I'll try the rest. The heavy ones were the ones that couldn't connect

ALTHOUGH, Jigglypuff is still hard to hit with it. Although again, aiming it up makes it 100% connected

Using f-smash with buster solves this also

Um... wait... It's 100% connecting now with puff if you use it straight

NOW, it's consistently hitting. F-smash rarely whiffs. idk. I'll try spamming it in a match


So this is what I got

14/15 F-smashes fully connected at high %'s (90+)

28/28 F-smashes fully connected at low to mid (Below 90)

All against Puff

All my f-smashes connected 100% against Bowser

Now they're all connecting with Puff





IDK. You guys should try it for yourselves to be sure

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I was the friend, for the record. I played a fair bit last night and I only remember one time having someone slip out of FSmash (Kirby for the record and the FSmash was angled up). It could simply be I never got a bad connection seeing as it connect most of the time for me anyway. I'll test it more deliberately for you later today. I have a friend with a JP copy of 1.02, so I can get him to test the original in comparison when he's off work laaaaaaaaaaate tonight.

 

[Berserker.]

I was the friend, for the record. I played a fair bit last night and I only remember one time having someone slip out of FSmash (Kirby for the record and the FSmash was angled up). It could simply be I never got a bad connection seeing as it connect most of the time for me anyway. I'll test it more deliberately for you later today. I have a friend with a JP copy of 1.02, so I can get him to test the original in comparison when he's off work laaaaaaaaaaate tonight.

Dude thanks. Sorry about the hallucinating back in that thread @_@

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Everyone's doing it. I might even be doing it, but I'm a cynic.

Everyone is just eyeballing things at the moment.

 

[erico9001]

Interesting, I had no blue notification to indicate the patch, but I'm downloading it from E Shop now. I'll let you know if I notice anything. I'll be wary not to think it's there just because you guys are saying it is (placebo).

Hyper Smash is pretty much why I ran HMarts in the tourney. It KO's at ridiculously low %'s but the key to using all Hyper arts is precise timing. Like, use HSmash when they're off the edge and they're guaranteed to get KO'd by f-air or b-air or air slash or u-tilt. I can KO with HSmash F-ait at sub 100%. It's nuts

For HBuster, I use it when I land a grab. Blah. Stuff. HMarts is good stuff

DMarts is good against Mac because you'd wanna stay in shield and speed for a long time

Oh and you can share your opinions in this thread about customs: http://smashboards.com/threads/shulk-custom-moveset-discussion.375050

Cool. I think I'll copy and paste my post there. I agree, and that seems to be a good use of decisive monado arts.

 

[Berserker.]

Against some characters where you'd wanna stick to your guns, decisive is probably good

Against Mac, just hope that he doesn't knock you far off the stage. Especially with *cough* shield

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I run Decisive Monado arts more often than Hyper or Standard due to a skill discrepancy in my region. I understand it isn't the best in many situations. The big drawback is definitely the almost complete inability to switch to jump while recovering. However, saying that Buster is not good for Decisive is crazy talk. I wouldn't run it against a good player playing a good character, but I would run it against a good player playing a bad character. Any character worse than Shulk (meaning I'm not playing against the S-Tier for once in my life) can easily let the game get out of hand because of how explosive Shulk's damage output is due to the increased time in Buster. It lets a lead become insane and due to Sm4sh's system mechanics, it is not unreasonable to wait out Smash mode defensively. Note, however, that I'm talking about playing against opponents that do not deal well with Sword characters like Shulk. Note that this is niche use, but I do believe it to be the optimal choice in these scenarios.

That and it is probably the best doubles Arts because you can stay in Buster and Shield if you're teaming with a partner who kills things or you can stay in Smash and Shield (probably start the round in Buster) when teaming with a partner who can deal damage, or Shield and Jump/Speed if you want to stock tank. The increased duration lets you stay in whatever form you want long enough to do your job and damage/kill/survive two opponents. If you are teaming with a partner that can cover the other side of the Smash/Buster dichotomy, you can almost exclusively play one or the other and aim for the target you need to be hitting while your partner does his job with the other.

 

[erico9001]

Okay. What's very apparent to me is that they have brightened/thickened the graphics for the Monado's beam. They have made it much more clear where the beam ends. This is noticeable in FAir, Bask Slash, Down Smash, Up Smash, DAir, and many other moves. They have also changed the length of the graphics/model of the move to better reflect where the hitbox is. This is very noticeable on the counter, since a few days ago I noticed that my hitbox connected with the opponent even though the sword was a decent ways away. Now they have increased the length of the beam model on the sword so that it is as long as the hitbox of the move. I think this is why it may appear that certain attacks may be longer or shorter in range, since it appears like it with the model, but in function it will be the same range since it appears they did not move or lengthen any hitboxes. As a result of these changes, we should be able to better follow where the Monado is swinging- improving our spacing.

After many tries, I have not had an opponent escape out of F-Smash yet. It looks like they may have fixed that, which means they must have not intended for that to happen in the first place. That was a bug. It makes me happy to know that =]. I'm not noticing any other hitbox/timing differences.

I just had a Link get out of my F-Smash; idk if they actually fixed that.

Yeah, they didn't.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Dantarion confirmed through datamining that effects changes occurred, so maybe Shulk got some of those like you've said. There were no hitbox changes. FSmash may link better (as other moves that required DI) through some global DI modifier that got adjusted, but as of this time, we have no way of knowing if that occurred. Regardless, it is POSSIBLE that FSmash was changed due to the result of global change and probable that his beam was made easier to notice, but other than that, nothing is different.

 

[Banjodorf]

Wish they'd just put out some patch notes. This whole having to figure them out ourselves leads to alot of misinformation and misunderstanding. Gah.

 

[NT 3000]

Wish they'd just put out some patch notes. This whole having to figure them out ourselves leads to alot of misinformation and misunderstanding. Gah.

It's nintendo they just don't care if we know or not lol

 

[Masonomace]

Personally it looks to me the Blade coming out as the first hit, increased in range. But that's just from observation alone.

 

[Opana]

This is pretty hard to test, so don't hold me to it, but I think we might be able to b reverse the monado deactivation as well.

 

[Masonomace]

This is pretty hard to test, so don't hold me to it, but I think we might be able to b reverse the monado deactivation as well.

Special Reversing the de-activation? Idk about that, I'd test if MArt Turn Around works first.

 

[Opana]

Special Reversing the de-activation? Idk about that, I'd test if MArt Turn Around works first.

Yeah that'd be easier, just need to get the timing down.

Also, a KO method I've been experimenting with is Air Slashing towards the blast line with both hits, with enough distance to grab the ledge. It can score some early KOs.

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Is it me or is Shulk able to land the kill easier now? Before I would kill around 125% and now I've just landed some kills around 80% and 100% easily. I'm a slightly confused.

 

[Berserker.]

Is it me or is Shulk able to land the kill easier now? Before I would kill around 125% and now I've just landed some kills around 80% and 100% easily. I'm a slightly confused.

I could do 80-100 with smash usually

So, specifically what moves are you talking about for KO'ing?

 

[Scourge The Hedgehog]

Up Smash and Back Slash specifically. I think I may just be seeing things but for some reason players are being KO'd way faster.

 

[Berserker.]

Up Smash and Back Slash specifically. I think I may just be seeing things but for some reason players are being KO'd way faster.

There are several variables though. With u-smash, it depends if....
1) DI or vectoring or whatever you call it
2) The character's weight
3) Which stance were you in

With back slash, it's basically the same variables except for the positioning in the stage