Tier List Speculation

[MagnesD3]

I hope you're not suggesting that the balance in PM is anything like Brawl.
The context is PM. It was a joke anyway, sorry if I offended you.




I mean, I agree with you. I don't mind playing against defensive styles of play (actually I find it refreshing to be able to think instead of getting run over, haha). I've never complained about a character being "too campy." However, I don't consider zoning and camping (sorry for using this word) to be the same thing, and I think one is definitely considered bad by most players.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the focus on defensive play one of the reasons Brawl is being modded in the first place?

When I said not to encourage camping, I'm responding to the suggestion that Lucario's Aura Sphere should be given less end lag, because, and I quote, it's "not fast enough to camp with." I don't know about you, but giving Lucario the option of spamming his projectile until his Super is charged doesn't sound like the intended design for Lucario.

Believe me, I don't like it when people say defensive play is bad. But I don't think all defensive play is camping, and (as much as I really don't care whether people camp or not), I think most people dislike defensive play, and I don't think encouraging it is taking the game in the right direction. I don't expect you to agree with me, and I'll gladly hear your side of things, but I do feel like the majority of players dislike excessive defensive play (again, I don't!), and that's really all I meant. Sorry for being unclear, and sorry if I offended you.

/apologies

I thought brawl was modded to be more like melee, aka more tech skill, speed increase, combos, no tripping, etc. I dont think it was to discourage defensive play like brawl has mostly within it (or at least I hope so). Anyways it just really grinds me gears when people **** on a character like guile or sagat due to their extreme defensive nature when at a high level those matches are beautiful due to correct spacing imo defensive play is only boring at low levels. Camping has always seemed like a noob term and thats why I get offended because of the ignorance that usually comes along with it, anyways I have no beef with you just the general Idea that defensive play is bad.

 

[MagnesD3]

I don't think people mind defensive play so much as long as it's FAST defensive play. Stuff needs to be happening, and the offensive player should be able to force the defensive player to make meaningful decisions very often (and, likewise, the defensive player should be rewarded accordingly if he makes the correct one).

People by and large don't hate campy or defensive games as much as they hate *slow* games, which was Brawl's biggest downfall IMO. It's no surprise that, considering the entire fighting game spectrum, games with bad balance but are lightning fast (eg: MvC2) got played a lot more than games with bad balance but are slow. Also worth noting that there are some serious defensive, runaway, campy powerhouses in MvC2's top tier.

SF4 can be very slow and is still very popular.

 

[deadjames]

SF4 can be very slow and is still very popular.

Even the slowest SF4 match isn't Brawl slow. Plus SF4 actually has combos.

 

[Cassio]

It takes greater understanding to appreciate slower games, its hard to appreciate if you dont know whats going on.

 

[MagnesD3]

Even the slowest SF4 match isn't Brawl slow. Plus SF4 actually has combos.

True but I did have fun with brawl for what it was, a boxing match where you sometimes slip for no reason.

 

[deadjames]

It takes greater understanding to appreciate slower games, its hard to appreciate if you dont know whats going on.

The reason I don't appreciate Brawl is precisely because I understand it. The deeper I delved into the metagame the less appealing it became to keep wasting my money on tournaments which is why I inevitably quit and picked up PM.

 

[Metazoa]

Brawl is just an unfortunate case of problems piling upon problems.

Slower game speed.
Lessened falling speed.
Near-nonexistent hit-stun.
All of which combine to create an engine which basically renders most forms of approach moot and defeats most of the roster from the start, almost forcing competitive players toward certain characters and styles just to achieve mild success.

Melee has higher values of the above which, while promoting offensive play (Captain Falcon, Shiek, Fox & Falco), also leave room for a defensive but active style (Jigglypuff, Peach, Spacies), leading to a wider breadth of expression and personality in each game and player. While I don't know much about 64, I'm confident that it is very much the same way.

 

[MagnesD3]

Tripping and metaknight are the only real chinks in the chain of brawl for me, I would play it more often if those alone were removed.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Tripping and metaknight are the only real chinks in the chain of brawl for me, I would play it more often if those alone were removed.

Have you ever tried Brawl+?

 

[Cassio]

The reason I don't appreciate Brawl is precisely because I understand it. The deeper I delved into the metagame the less appealing it became to keep wasting my money on tournaments which is why I inevitably quit and picked up PM.

Disliking the game is one thing, but if you don't appreciate it you don't understand it. Most people dislike playing Brawl because of the intense mental stability and aptitude the game requires. They fall apart when they can't deal with defensive play/mk/tripping, or have issues figuring out how to condition, bait, and read to be capable of approaching.

Brawl is just an unfortunate case of problems piling upon problems.

Slower game speed.
Lessened falling speed.
Near-nonexistent hit-stun.
All of which combine to create an engine which basically renders most forms of approach moot and defeats most of the roster from the start, almost forcing competitive players toward certain characters and styles just to achieve mild success.

Melee has higher values of the above which, while promoting offensive play (Captain Falcon, Shiek, Fox & Falco), also leave room for a defensive but active style (Jigglypuff, Peach, Spacies), leading to a wider breadth of expression and personality in each game and player. While I don't know much about 64, I'm confident that it is very much the same way.

You gave characteristics, but your conclusion doesn't completely follow. Virtually every other fighting game including melee has a limited successful cast which arent attributed to any of these qualities. Defensive play in melee isnt really comparable, you generally dont have to take the same risks to approach.

 

[Infil]

Another important factor in a lot of games is the attacks having good oomph. SF4, while it seems slower, actually has a decently brisk footsies game, and one bad decision can lead to you losing the entire round quite easily. Also, in general, when an offensive powerhouse is in your face in SF4, you are scared to death. In non-MK Brawl, these moments of tension are lacking, because of all the things mentioned above (low hit stun, slow falling speeds, in general KOs at much higher percents). You can make more mistakes, because it feels like the entire cast (again, sans-MK) is trying to hit you with a nerf bat rather than a metal pipe.

I've thought a lot about why I don't like Brawl, since I care about game design in general and trying to determine how and why people have fun. And it seems that most people seem to agree; fast-paced is better than slow-paced (note that this does not mean offensive vs. defensive), and attacks that feel satisfying to hit, whether by visual cues or sound effects, are a lot more important than they may first initially seem. Brawl actually has great sound effects for a lot of moves but when the opponent barely moves and then takes 5 seconds to descend to the stage, the impact is really lessened. That's one of the main things that is making me consider learning Ike in PM... I love that his attacks just *sound* beefy, and when an opponent goes flying, it's a great visceral response for the player. I don't want to derail this thread too much more with this, though.

Disliking the game is one thing, but if you don't appreciate it you don't understand it.

I will say that this is a really crazy misrepresentation of the issue, however. It is very possible, and very common, to understand something and not appreciate it.

 

[Metazoa]

You gave characteristics, but your conclusion doesn't follow. Virtually every other fighting game including melee has a limited successful cast which arent attributed to any of these qualities. Defensive play in melee isnt really comparable, you generally dont have to take the same risks to approach.

I'm honestly not really sure how to accurately put it into words. Let me try anyway.
In most games, approaching is a risk. In SF4, defense is incredibly strong, and offensive characters have to work hard to find a way to begin setting up their own game. However, most, if not all characters in the game, have some form of tool that allows them to play the defensive poking game or at least some kind of semblance of it while looking for opportunities to score that chance to create big damage.
In Melee, offense and defense both have a chance to shine thanks to techniques that can be applied to both offensive and defensive styles. I'm referring mostly to wavedashing and L-cancelling, improving mobility and making moves end quicker. On the attack, this aids characters (some more than others) in approaching and putting pressure on the opponent. On the defense, it allows players to move out of tight spots and makes moves safer. The engine of the game is flexible enough to let players and characters of many different styles to work their own magic.
Brawl, on the other hand, has an engine that very much limits the number of ways characters can play. The low hit-stun and generally slow speed of characters aids defensive play since it makes it easier to react to attempted assaults and get out of juggles. However, it does not help offensive play. Lack of hit-stun makes it difficult for many characters to follow up on clean hits, a problem magnified by the lack of L-cancelling. The slow speed makes approaches mostly predictable and easily react-able. As such, not only is it difficult for a player to mount an offense, but the payoff is nearly nonexistant for all but a select few characters in the roster. Here, the engine of the game holds back many characters from greatness.

But enough of my attempts to relate the troubles of Brawl's engine, let's get back to discussing tiers!

 

[Cassio]

You can have techniques that are both offensive and defensive, but in the end you will either have more offensive or defensive options. The weaker option is always relegated to becoming more read and bait intensive. The amount of options is handy but not necessary beyond the third layer of yomi (meaning 2 counter options) as it may circle around again (citing sirlin).

The way you describe Brawl seems to be for low-mid level play, hit by hit with momentum yielding 'non-existant' results. Any top level player will be able to explain why this is false. Both approaching and momentum require the mental aptitude to condition, bait, and read. Approaching, for instance, taking the initiative to dash at an opponent from neutral requires knowledge of your opponents options and which option the player is most likely to pick. Hit an opponent, and they have limited options to your many. Following up and maintining momentum, even without guaranteed follow ups, is a statement of your intelligence as a player.

@ Infil I know, but I was being specific.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ Cassio again I still find saying that Pika's edgeguarding game is "nerfed" to be entirely out of context and silly. It's like saying he's worse at comboing because there are more relevant characters that aren't as susceptible to being combo'd as Melee's top 8. Or that his recovery is "worse" because some new characters are proficient at edgeguarding it. These aren't nerfs, this is how unique media responds to changing environments and there's nothing wrong with that. Referring to these things as "nerfs" is not only false, it introduces a connotation that these aspects of Pika's gameplay were made weaker intentionally, which can't be further from the truth. If you'd like to argue that Pikachu's kit has responded negatively to the environment he finds himself in in Project M, then do that, instead of whatever you're doing.

 

[deadjames]

Disliking the game is one thing, but if you don't appreciate it you don't understand it. Most people dislike playing Brawl because of the intense mental stability and aptitude the game requires. They fall apart when they can't deal with defensive play/mk/tripping, or have issues figuring out how to condition, bait, and read to be capable of approaching.

Last time I checked appreciation and comprehension weren't synonyms.

 

[Cassio]

That wasnt a universal claim, it was statement specific.

@ Strong Badam I dont wish to argue semantics. If you want me to use a different term thats fine, I can see there wasnt a scheme to make him worse. The point is pikachu had limited tools to begin with and one of his most important ones doesnt work as well for him anymore. I can see what youre saying about combos, recovery, and potentially other things. But the changes either werent as important or didnt affect him in the same way, at least it doesnt feel that way. Id have to think about it more, but his movement seems to cover a weaker combo game well enough, and nerfs to his recovery also came with buffs. Its hard to describe, but the way his edge game changes affects him has to do with how pikas various strengths and weaknesses meshed together to give him a personality as a character, and now an important part of that personality is gone without a replacement. I think its the same way people frequently say hes missing something special or flair. Granted I can see why its not so easy to simply turn things back into how melee was, just disappointing I guess.

 

[deadjames]

That wasnt a universal claim, it was statement specific.

That doesn't make it any less false.

 

[MagnesD3]

Have you ever tried Brawl+?

No but I've heard the balancing is a little crazy, heck I didn't even jump on the pm train till I was sure that the balancing was pretty sound (even though I still feel there is favoritism towards some melee characters (subject to change)) That's basically why I haven't tried it out.

 

[Deleted member]

i tried brawl+ once. i was on a version where ganondorf's get-up tech option was safe on shield. that was the first and last time i ever played that.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

Anyone else think that mario is top tier? Because it feels like mario is top tier.

 

[Soft Serve]

It feelslike everyone is top tier.

But yeah, i think most people would agree that mario is one of the best characters.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

It just seems like he can get stage control and space so well. Downsmash punishes rolls so hard and idk. Playing him feels like playing a stronger shiek with better options whose slightly slower.

 

[NightShadow6]

Mario has so much going for him its ridiculous. Those laser like fireballs are a pain in the ass.

Long as hes got those short limbs though.

 

[The_NZA]

Mario has so much going for him its ridiculous. Those laser like fireballs are a pain in the ***.

Long as hes got those short limbs though.

The fact that the fireballs can be clanked means they should never be compared to the lasers.

 

[deadjames]

The fact that the fireballs can be clanked means they should never be compared to the lasers.

But some lasers can be clanked, like Wolf's and I'm pretty sure I've clanked with Falco's lasers before, but I could be wrong about that.

 

[Zeallyx]

I often see Charizard low(er) on tier list speculations. Can someone elaborate please?

Zard seems beast to me atm.

 

[GunBlaze]

I've clanked with Falco's lasers before, but I could be wrong about that.

You can't.

 

[popsofctown]

I often see Charizard low(er) on tier list speculations. Can someone elaborate please?

Zard seems beast to me atm.

He does get combo'ed pretty hard.

 

[Zeallyx]

He does get combo'ed pretty hard.

That can't be all: Fox and Falco wouldn't be top of top tier in Melee if that factor was THAT important.

I'm not saying Charizard is Fox/Falco tier, but doesn't he have more potential than barely mid?

 

[deadjames]

I often see Charizard low(er) on tier list speculations. Can someone elaborate please?

Zard seems beast to me atm.

He has a lot of good tools and is ridiculously mobile for a character his size, but he doesn't have many options for escaping pressure and is susceptible to being combo'd really hard. As far as big characters go he's probably better than D3, but not as good as Bowser or DK imo.

 

[popsofctown]

That can't be all: Fox and Falco wouldn't be top of top tier in Melee if that factor was THAT important.

I'm not saying Charizard is Fox/Falco tier, but doesn't he have more potential than barely mid?

Susceptibility due to hurtbox size tends to be a different set of problems than susceptibility due to high fall speed.

 

[Zeallyx]

He has a lot of good tools and is ridiculously mobile for a character his size, but he doesn't have many options for escaping pressure and is susceptible to being combo'd really hard. As far as big characters go he's probably better than D3, but not as good as Bowser or DK imo.

Susceptibility due to hurtbox size tends to be a different set of problems than susceptibility due to high fall speed.

Alright, fair enough.

Thanks for clarifying. I still think he has the potential to end up at least a little higher though.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

I think the best big character is probably DK, his grab game is superb and he has great combos on all weights and falling speeds. Bowser and Ganon are definitely up there too. If Ganon spaces even a little better than his opponent it's curtains for them.

 

[SixSaw]

If Ganon spaces even a little better than his opponent it's curtains for them.

If only it were possible to space better than projectiles

 

[Infil]

DK does seem really good, I'm not really on the Bowser train though. Can someone explain to me how he gets anything done against good characters? Certainly Charizard is better than Bowser.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

I guess it's a good thing that Ganon can punch missiles and wolfs lasers.

 

[deadjames]

DK does seem really good, I'm not really on the Bowser train though. Can someone explain to me how he gets anything done against good characters? Certainly Charizard is better than Bowser.

Define good characters, imo the only MU that is like "switch off your character bad" for Bowser is Sheik. He has a lot of unfavorable MUs, but none of them are terrible.

 

[Zoa]

@PerhapsMan

You're drawing the wrong idea about reduced end lag. AS has a very low travel speed that is easily powershielded, and has around twice the end lag of Falco's blaster. Reducing some of its end lag will allow Lucario to act faster after releasing AS to help his approach.

Camping with AS would be a bad idea given the projectile's slow speed. It would be easy powershield bait if tried. Currently Lucario suffers from a lack of approach options. He only has Double Team cancel, DA, fair to try and poke the opponent, DD, and maybe a couple of more options in neutral. All are easy to defend against within the same range. Lucario doesn't even have the range to approach with aerials safely. A reduced end lag AS will provide another way to pressure with his approaches, and provide a much needed addition to his approach game.

 

[Mera Mera]

@PerhapsMan

You're drawing the wrong idea about reduced end lag. AS has a very low travel speed that is easily powershielded, and has around twice the end lag of Falco's blaster. Reducing some of its end lag will allow Lucario to act faster after releasing AS to help his approach.

Camping with AS would be a bad idea given the projectile's slow speed. It would be easy powershield bait if tried. Currently Lucario suffers from a lack of approach options. He only has Double Team cancel, DA, fair to try and poke the opponent, DD, and maybe a couple of more options in neutral. All are easy to defend against within the same range. Lucario doesn't even have the range to approach with aerials safely. A reduced end lag AS will provide another way to pressure with his approaches, and provide a much needed addition to his approach game.

Personally I think Lucario is intentionally designed such that he doesn't have a great approach without an aura charge. Since it's kinda supposed to be his weakness and he has some solid strengths, I think he's fine as is. I could be wrong, but this iteration of Lucario seems to be the most balanced one. Starting with an aura charge every life makes a big difference, now you have to make a mistake in order to lose your good approach options, rather than starting that way.

 

[Plum]

The best fatty is secretly DDD but people like to fool themselves into thinking they aren't his ***** offstage.
You are. Stop kidding yourself. In fact just don't bother recovering because you're dead anyways.