Tier List Speculation

[deadjames]

The best fatty is secretly DDD but people like to fool themselves into thinking they aren't his ***** offstage.
You are. Stop kidding yourself. In fact just don't bother recovering because you're dead anyways.

You can literally say the exact same thing about Zard, DK, and Bowz.

 

[ELI-mination]

Definitely can't say the same thing about DK are you kidding me

 

[deadjames]

Definitely can't say the same thing about DK are you kidding me

He can use his dash attack to go pretty far offstage and still make it back after throwing out a nair to gimp his opponent.

 

[Ripple]

He can use his dash attack to go pretty far offstage and still make it back after throwing out a nair to gimp his opponent.

Have you even seen a dk play. Nair doesn't gimp and he'd have to jump after the dash attack unless he wants to SD also, thus covering basically straight out and a little up. Not recovering from below or high

 

[deadjames]

Have you even seen a dk play. Nair doesn't gimp and he'd have to jump after the dash attack unless he wants to SD also, thus covering basically straight out and a little up. Not recovering from below or high

Maybe gimp is the wrong word, but I've seen it outright kill, it's definitely not as efficient as D3's offstage game, but it's still an option.

 

[Rᴏb]

Offstage is the only place Dedede can shine, don't take that away from him, man.

 

[ELI-mination]

Well damn, If I only knew

 

[deadjames]

Offstage is the only place Dedede can shine, don't take that away from him, man.

I'm not saying he doesn't. I'm just saying the other big characters can too, except for Bowser, he shines more on the ledge, but my original point is that they all have the potential to make you their ***** when you're offstage.

 

[MagnesD3]

Give Dedede a projectile with less recovery please, Id like have a chance to zone a little with it...

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

DDD shines where he wants to which is everywhere because he has dem aerials and dat standing grab

and your bowser and dk can't **** people offstage like DDD can, like can they even recover? You don't see bowser and DK going under FD now do you?

 

[deadjames]

DDD shines where he wants to which is everywhere because he has dem aerials and dat standing grab

and your bowser and dk can't **** people offstage like DDD can, like can they even recover? You don't see bowser and DK going under FD now do you?

No, but you're still missing the point. I'm saying against all those characters you're screwed when you're offstage not when they are D3 and Zard are the only ones that the latter applies to. Here's an example: you're offstage against Bowser and he's below 100% on the ledge, chances are you aren't going to be able to recover against a competent Bowser player in this situation, unless you're able to recover out of range of his getup attack.

 

[Strong Badam]

He can use his dash attack to go pretty far offstage and still make it back after throwing out a nair to gimp his opponent.

jacob pls
dk's edgeguarding game is ok but not all that stellar. he can't really do like anything to edgeguard recoveries from below.

 

[deadjames]

jacob pls
dk's edgeguarding game is ok but not all that stellar. he can't really do like anything to edgeguard recoveries from below.

I wasn't implying that he could.

 

[Infil]

You're basically implying that these characters, while safely on the stage, can knock back opponents who are trying to recover. This is... not exactly a revelation, or unique to them.

This is how the conversation went.

"You could literally say the exact same thing [if you're off-stage against Dedede you're dead] for Charizard, Bowser, and DK"
"... well, okay. DK can at least do a running attack and maybe hit the opponent a little bit, as long as they aren't below the stage."
"... well, okay. As long as you're standing on the stage, and the opponent has high percent and is recovering predictably, you might get a KO with Bowser."

 

[Deleted member]

jacob pls
dk's edgeguarding game is ok but not all that stellar. he can't really do like anything to edgeguard recoveries from below.

You can hit the opponent with an aerial Down A move and hit them with a meteor spike.

 

[Mr_Sweet]

Who gives a ****. DK is still the best fatty on stage and can make people his ***** ON the stage, during then neutral game.

 

[deadjames]

You're basically implying that these characters, while safely on the stage, can knock back opponents who are trying to recover. This is... not exactly a revelation, or unique to them.

This is how the conversation went.

"You could literally say the exact same thing [if you're off-stage against Dedede you're dead] for Charizard, Bowser, and DK"
"... well, okay. As long as you're standing on the stage, and the opponent has high percent and is recovering predictably, you might get a KO with Bowser."

You may want to reread what I said about Bowser because that's definitely not even close.

 

[Strong Badam]

DK's neutral game isn't great. It's his punish game that's good.

and lol max

 

[Deleted member]

now if i was only good enough to tell eli how to play his character. unfortunately i didn't join smashboards within the last year so i'm not qualified. sorry eli.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Let me

Eli go DJ offstage and up-B recovering people, A++ strategy

 

[Zoa]

@BlackRainFire

I can see how he deserves a weakness. His options are insane, and he's got a great air and ground game. However his range is barely better than Mario's, and he barely has enough of a defense game to handle opposing pressure. Small shield, short dodges, and not that many options to punish OoS. A combo character that can't approach, or even have a good defense game to handle pressure while trying to approach, is going to be neutered by characters who can easily outrange them.

This is Lucario's main issue. He's hard pressed to approach characters with solid keep away games, good OoS options, or those with range that exceeds his. The other issue is too much emphasis on aura. I like the PMBR for how they handle many things about character balance, but just throwing an aura charge on him to approach and hopefully not whiff it at the beginning of each stock is questionable.

Other combo centered characters have significantly better options to force approaches or approach with. Falco can completely shut down the stage with SH lasers, ZSS has an unclankable paralyzer she can move with, and so forth. Lucario has a slow blue bubble with horrible end lag that's powershielded easily. This just completely baffles me how other characters have solid approach options that are capable of being used at any time, yet Lucario is stuck with the poor range on his attacks and a bad defense game.

 

[deadjames]

After reading that post about Lucario, it almost seems like I'm reading a description of Luigi's weaknesses. Who would you say has a worse approach?

 

[jtm94]

After reading that post about Lucario, it almost seems like I'm reading a description of Luigi's weaknesses. Who would you say has a worse approach?

Well being that both of their best approaches consist of throwing an energy projectile, I think they're pretty even.
But Lucario does have just 1 aura charge that could be used as an approach while Lugi has wavedashes.

 

[deadjames]

That's true, plus Luigi can approach with an aerial and waveland out of harm's way if his opponent happens to shield.

 

[Oracle]

Dks offstage game is broken! Suicide fairs all day! Also poob combo is pretty busted for edgeguards

 

[Plum]

can DK still fly off ledges with side b?
I know Mario can still cape glide and it's the same mechanic, so I assume yes?
not sure how practical DK's side b glide would be... but pure levels of swag would be off the chart

 

[Kati]

Has the bowser shiek mu changed with the implementation of armour or can Sheik still just out space and murder?

 

[deadjames]

Has the bowser shiek mu changed with the implementation of armour or can Sheik still just out space and murder?

It's still pretty bad, even if Bowser does manage to get in Sheik can just grab him and tech chase for days.

 

[Metazoa]

Would you say that Ivysaur is still really good in 3.0, even with his nerfs?

 

[Kaeldiar]

Ivysaur is worse in 3.0 not just because of the nerfs, but mostly because people have figured him out. Think about how well aMSa did as Yoshi at Apex. He did this because Yoshi is a decent character that no one was too familiar with. Every pro knows how to beat Fox, but not necessarily how to beat Yoshi. Ivysaur is the same case. He's pretty good (then again, who isn't in P:M?), but not top tier. People saw how big a threat he was, so they figured out how to beat him.

Cliffnotes version: He's still good, but a little bit worse. Also, he is worse mainly because of people learning the MU, not just the nerfs.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

^I swear, do a find+replace and you could be talking about Ike.

 

[Burnsy]

After reading that post about Lucario, it almost seems like I'm reading a description of Luigi's weaknesses. Who would you say has a worse approach?

Luigi by far... not even close.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I personally think it's fitting for Luigi to be low tier-ish in a game where Mario is one of the best characters.

It's his life.

 

[Burnsy]

Don't talk like that. It's still the year of Luigi, dammit.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Don't talk like that. It's still the year of Luigi, dammit.

Let Luigi have his year, even if it somehow is two. DIS THE MARIO MILLENNIUM, BIRCH!

Spoiler

Christ, I hate Mario games, why am I saying this ****

 

[deadjames]

I personally think it's fitting for Luigi to be low tier-ish in a game where Mario is one of the best characters.

It's his life.

Yet Luigi has been better than Mario in every other Smash game except 64, and he's usually better in the Mario series too. Luigi's definitely no Mario in PM, but he's not low tier either, he just lacks representation.

 

[Nausicaa]

Funny is ye who think not shall a list thy see feel silly, cometh!

Explanations for what C/B Tier is (basically they're good enough but polarizing) on the page that's quoted from.
I'll explain more later maybe.

3.0 series

S - Completely Viable (Can win a tournament alone, with only a few hurdles)

Lucas
Wolf
Luigi
Yoshi
Pikachu
Peach
Metaknight

A - Viable (Can win a tournament alone, but with more than a few hurdles)

Zero Suit Samus
Sonic
Pit
Wario
Kirby
Fox
Diddy Kong
Mario
Sheilda

B - Functional Viability (Can win a tournament alone, though possibly with many hurdles)
Captain Falcon
Mewtwo
Snake
Falco
Toon Link
Ivysaur
Marth
Link
Lucario
Ike
Donkey Kong
Sheik
Roy
Samus

C/B - Viably Functional (Probably won't win a tournament alone, but it's still possible since they're good enough to go far until their quirks come into play. Minor tweaks could do well for some, but nothing major, while some are perfect in this tier without changes due to their polarizing nature.)

Game & Watch
ROB
Jigglypuff
Charizard
Bowser
Ganondorf
Ness
Zelda
Olimar
Squirtle

F (permanent Ivan Ooze Tier)
Ice Climbers (2 hammers make a whole)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah okay I've found the most controversial tier list ever. Thanks Nausicaa.

 

[deadjames]

That S tier Luigi, Pika, and Peach tho.

 

[Blade-Fox]

Laughed way too hard at that DeDeOoze pic.