Tier List Speculation

[Vashimus]

My main problem with Samus is that she's kind of one-dimensional. She's got good keep away, but that's about it, she can't shift between keep away and offense nearly as well as someone like Link or Toon Link, largely owing to her extreme floatiness, limited combo game, and lack of kill power on everything except charge shot. She also has problems with short characters, who can duck under some of her best moves and get in on her more easily.

Highly disagree on the one-dimensionality. Outside of her limited comboability in comparison to other fighters, Samus is one of the most versatile members of the cast. Samus thrives on chipping away and frustrating opponents, baiting them to make mistakes, where she can easily switch to offense because she has many options to punish. With platform canceled/B-reversed missiles and tilts for spacing / keepaway; quick, powerful low-lag aerials; a crouch-cancel game which is still among the best in the cast, great OoS options, with a good wavedash and an invincible Up-B; easily the highest survivability in the cast with the combination of heavy weight, extreme floatiness, and a multitude of ways to recover; she can hold her own with just about every character in the cast, and unlike a lot of the cast, doesn't have much trouble dealing with spacies. Many of her useless/situational moves from Melee have been buffed, and missiles are still just as effective for killing thanks to no longer staling in knockback. I don't see how her killing power is underwhelming, because she's certainly not getting kills with Charge Shot alone.

The only characters I can really think of that give her trouble are those with extreme disjoints, and she can still outlast most of them.

 

[Bryonato]

Where is Toon Link?

OOPS. moved him so far up I forgot to put him in. Added

 

[GP&B]

It's definitely not just Charge Shot. Not only is FSmash much faster (glancing at it over in BrawlBox, I think it's something like frame 15), but it's stronger (I think) and it has a disjoint now (thanks Smash 4).

 

[Ripple]

frame 15 would be 5 frames slower than melee.

also, I HIGHLY disagree with samus being multi-dimensional. the only way she makes people approach is with missles and then she plays her annoying attrition game with jabs and f-tilt. sometimes throws in a grab too.

she keeps playing that game over and over again until she gets enough % for d-smash to kill.


her punishes are weak and don't guarantee a kill until like 150% unless charge shot of course.

 

[Vashimus]

frame 15 would be 5 frames slower than melee.

also, I HIGHLY disagree with samus being multi-dimensional. the only way she makes people approach is with missles and then she plays her annoying attrition game with jabs and f-tilt. sometimes throws in a grab too.

she keeps playing that game over and over again until she gets enough % for d-smash to kill.


her punishes are weak and don't guarantee a kill until like 150% unless charge shot of course.

Reductionism can make any character's game seem 1-dimensional. See:

Fox: Lasers, Nair, Drill, Shine, Up-Smash, Up-throw up air

Ness: PK Fire, D-throw, Fair, Bair

etc.

 

[SpiderMad]

samus is terrible now that you can't isai drop with her.

I thought you still could even with their being a crawl

 

[Juushichi]

I wonder how many spots G&W will be climbing up now that he's placed high in a tournament for once.

Oracle, Dakpo, myself, probably others have won tournaments with GnW. (Dakpo was statistically one of the best players last year, too)

There have been plenty of top 8 and top 5 placements with this character.

way back in 2.5 iirc, GnW won a tournament before Mario did.

 

[Jacob29]

Soft Serve whats wrong with Link using Up-B OoS? is Nair really way better than that?

 

[Terotrous]

Yeah I'll definitely address why I didn't put those 5 higher.

It would take way too much space to quote all 5 so I'll just name each character and respond to it.


Link:
Link is definitely somewhat susceptible to pressure if you can get in (he would be ridonkulously OP if he wasn't), but even the most mobile characters have to go in cautiously because taking a hit on the way in always leads to huge damage. Link can also afford to be cautious in escaping pressure because he has strong defense (he's heavy and has good recovery) and his punishes hurt a ton. He only needs one touch to do a lot of damage and get you back out, allowing him to start up his keep away game again. Up B and even shield grab are also viable OOS options in some situations.


Mewtwo:
Mewtwo has pretty great (and surprisingly fast) pokes due to his tail, so he doesn't really struggle to rack up damage for his handful of killing moves to connect. UThrow is an amazing kill move on everyone but fast-fallers, and he has other options to deal with them so he can live with that weakness. His recovery is also totally amazing, and he's also great at regaining stage control after being knocked off or above the stage.


Kirby:
The main thing which makes Kirby's cutter dash a decent approach is the fact that he could do the regular final cutter instead. If you try to rush forward and punish it you're risking getting hit by the dash version. The two versions are reactable so you shouldn't go to it all the time but it can be useful in some situations. The strength of Kirby's recovery, edgeguarding, and wall of pain lie in the massive number of jumps that he has, coupled with the option for either vertical or horizontal recovery. Kirby can go super far out for punishes / edgeguards and never have to worry about whether or not he'll make it back. Compare Wario, whose wall of pain is scary on paper but less so in practice simply because he does need to get back onstage at some point. Puff's WoP is still decent but she does need to actually hit someone first, and she has far less options for doing that than Kirby does.


Sheik:
I think you're somewhat overthinking Sheik. She's still fast, strong, and has ridiculous combos on most of the cast. It's true that she's lost a bit since Melee (which is why I moved her down to upper mid), but she's still fairly scary.


Zelda:
Zelda isn't totally one-dimensional, though, she also has good tilts, smash attacks, and aerials. Zelda is actually exactly the kind of character I wish Samus was. If Samus could frustrate you with projectiles and then deal big damage with normals or kill you around 100-110% I'd have no problem with her.

frame 15 would be 5 frames slower than melee.

also, I HIGHLY disagree with samus being multi-dimensional. the only way she makes people approach is with missles and then she plays her annoying attrition game with jabs and f-tilt. sometimes throws in a grab too.

she keeps playing that game over and over again until she gets enough % for d-smash to kill.


her punishes are weak and don't guarantee a kill until like 150% unless charge shot of course.

This is pretty much my opinion on Samus too. Poking / projectile game is good, but her offensive options beyond that seem very limited. None of her aerials have any killing power, it's pretty much charge shot, Dsmash, or Dtilt that has to do the job. Her survivability also isn't the absolute best because she's easily killed off the top due to her floatiness.

This is why I'd like to see buffs to Ice Beam. I think the way it should work is that Fire Beam = damage building while Ice Beam = kill power. That would make her offense far more dangerous once you got to higher percents. I'd also like to see some buffs to throw followups to better reward the fact that her throw is quite hard to land.

way back in 2.5 iirc, GnW won a tournament before Mario did.

Wasn't G&W much better in 2.5 though? Of course, he had fewer characters to contend with back then, too.

 

[Chevy]

This is pretty much my opinion on Samus too. Poking / projectile game is good, but her offensive options beyond that seem very limited. None of her aerials have any killing power, it's pretty much charge shot, Dsmash, or Dtilt that has to do the job. Her survivability also isn't the absolute best because she's easily killed off the top due to her floatiness.

This is why I'd like to see buffs to Ice Beam. I think the way it should work is that Fire Beam = damage building while Ice Beam = kill power. That would make her offense far more dangerous once you got to higher percents. I'd also like to see some buffs to throw followups to better reward the fact that her throw is quite hard to land.

Samus generally doesn't need as many offensive options, she's supposed to force the opponent to make a mistake. If she is forced to approach, aside from the missile-cancel into anything approach, she is a bit lacking. Crawl helps a bit in this regard, makes you smaller and crouch-cancels everything. Repeatedly zairing your opponent will also condition them to stay in shield sometimes, which you might get a grab off of.

She has plenty of kill power as is though. Sweet-spotted bair is very good, and she has multiple fairly reliable set-ups for it. Nair is also fairly powerful when it comes out. Dtilt will pretty much never kill in an actual match, and a properly DI'd Dsmash generally shouldn't either. Her best kill moves are Charge Shot(obviously), Fsmash, bair, smash missiles, nair, dair, Upsmash(actually kills now, albeit at fairly high percents), Ice Upsmash, and Ice Fair. The only thing that really kills early is Charge shot, but you have plenty of options to make up for it. Also no-one has mentioned her edgeguard game at all which is an area where she really shines. A sex-kick, disjointed bair, bombs, missiles, very strong meteor smash, plus the ability to recover from deep give her an excellent off-stage game, where generally any aerial will seal the deal.

I do agree that Ice Beam needs buffs though. Upsmash and Fair are fine, but the Fsmash is just way too damn slow and weak to make up for the delayed second hit. Dtilt is pretty much just used for gimping narrow recoveries. I think Fsmash should have more knockback and come out a little faster. Dtilt should do some shield damage or something to compensate for it's vastly inferior angle compared to fire Dtilt.

Her down throw follow-ups are excellent, grab is fine.

The only thing Samus really needs is tweaks to ice-beam, bombs detonating on shield, and ideally melee tether(not really a buff, but a much better and deeper mechanic). Failing that, fixing the ledge-grapple so she doesn't just die sometimes if you're too high would be nice.

 

[Ripple]

Reductionism can make any character's game seem 1-dimensional. See:

Fox: Lasers, Nair, Drill, Shine, Up-Smash, Up-throw up air

Ness: PK Fire, D-throw, Fair, Bair

etc.

Ness Does seem 1-dimensional to me considering him options in the neutral are pretty much limited to Spam PK fire and then 10% of the time go for dash attack.

and samus was hardly reductionism, she might seem less so now because Ice beam but she plays almost the exact same as her melee counterpart.

she has no approach at all, her punishes are weak except for charge shot and Ice up-smash, and as soon as she sends someone flying her options is always the same, continue to spam missles.



you can't even make a case for fox being 1-dimensional. Fox's speed allow him to camp with lasers at any point he wants to, his low lag aerials allow him to use any aerial on shield and be safe, and then getting a hit with one of those aerials basically allows him to follow up into at least 2 more aerials or a grab. and then his shine allows him to do anything he wants to, whether it be aerial, dash attack, grab, retreat and spam, or even another shine. and all of this is on at least half the cast.

samus' mix ups are only available to her after she dairs someone on stage which doesn't happen too often, or does a grab or d-tilt, at low %. otherwise she's entirely limited to 1 hit at a time and then reset neutral

 

[steelguttey]

well djc gives ness an insanely safe pressure game that he can almost always get a combo off of a hit at most percents. even if he cant its a free grab if you are good at chasing di's

 

[Terotrous]

Samus generally doesn't need as many offensive options, she's supposed to force the opponent to make a mistake. If she is forced to approach, aside from the missile-cancel into anything approach, she is a bit lacking. Crawl helps a bit in this regard, makes you smaller and crouch-cancels everything. Repeatedly zairing your opponent will also condition them to stay in shield sometimes, which you might get a grab off of.

I do like Zair, Air dodge down forward / back into Zair is a really good advancing / retreating poke. Unfortunately, it's very hard to hit short characters with this, which lets them get in easily. In particular, Samus vs Squirtle seems like an ungodly terrible matchup, he can just Side B through all her projectiles and she has trouble hitting him.

Also, did Zair lose its tipper hitbox from Brawl? That seems like a stupid change if so.

She has plenty of kill power as is though. Sweet-spotted bair is very good, and she has multiple fairly reliable set-ups for it. Nair is also fairly powerful when it comes out. Dtilt will pretty much never kill in an actual match, and a properly DI'd Dsmash generally shouldn't either. Her best kill moves are Charge Shot(obviously), Fsmash, bair, smash missiles, nair, dair, Upsmash(actually kills now, albeit at fairly high percents), Ice Upsmash, and Ice Fair. The only thing that really kills early is Charge shot, but you have plenty of options to make up for it. Also no-one has mentioned her edgeguard game at all which is an area where she really shines. A sex-kick, disjointed bair, bombs, missiles, very strong meteor smash, plus the ability to recover from deep give her an excellent off-stage game, where generally any aerial will seal the deal.

The problem with her edgeguard game is she has to get you offstage first, which she generally has trouble doing. Also, buffed recoveries have weakened everyone's edgeguarding.

Her down throw follow-ups are excellent, grab is fine.

What I'd like is a kill option after throw at high percents. I know you can get some damage with Uair / Screw Attack, but generally she needs the kills more. This is one area where buffed Ice Beam would be nice, if you could say, back throw off the edge and then Meteor / spike with Ice Fair you'd have to respect her grab a lot more.

 

[Chevy]

Also, did Zair lose its tipper hitbox from Brawl? That seems like a stupid change if so.

Tipper hitbox is still in, it does 7% and is, coincidentally, a good way to get people off-stage.

The problem with her edgeguard game is she has to get you offstage first, which she generally has trouble doing. Also, buffed recoveries have weakened everyone's edgeguarding.

It's not incredibly easy, but missiles, ftilt, or any aerial will generally get your opponent off the stage. All of her aerials aside from dair have horizontal knockback on the last hit.

What I'd like is a kill option after throw at high percents. I know you can get some damage with Uair / Screw Attack, but generally she needs the kills more. This is one area where buffed Ice Beam would be nice, if you could say, back throw off the edge and then Meteor / spike with Ice Fair you'd have to respect her grab a lot more.

D-throw will almost always lead into at least one aerial, unless it's a floaty at fairly high percent.

 

[roman5hero]

Kirby:
The main thing which makes Kirby's cutter dash a decent approach is the fact that he could do the regular final cutter instead. If you try to rush forward and punish it you're risking getting hit by the dash version. The two versions are reactable so you shouldn't go to it all the time but it can be useful in some situations. The strength of Kirby's recovery, edgeguarding, and wall of pain lie in the massive number of jumps that he has, coupled with the option for either vertical or horizontal recovery. Kirby can go super far out for punishes / edgeguards and never have to worry about whether or not he'll make it back. Compare Wario, whose wall of pain is scary on paper but less so in practice simply because he does need to get back onstage at some point. Puff's WoP is still decent but she does need to actually hit someone first, and she has far less options for doing that than Kirby does.

No, if you are getting cutter dash to land from a non garunteed follow up then your oponent sucks. Dash attack is super overrated, it can be pivot grabed by a lot of the cast or just simply shielded or idk run away and punish the end lag because it is super easy to see when kirby is going to dash attack!

Yes his edge gaurding is great ill agree on that. No he is not hard to edge gaurd, kirby has slow air movement and even with cutter dash his recovery is very telagraphed. With him loosing all jumps from being hit out of both variants of up-B, vs any competant oponent this means death once that happens.

His combo game is nowhere near the combo heavy chars so i dont understand "has a good combo game" that is just false.

His pressure game is not great at all. Nair is not safe on shield from what i can tell, in fact i think only fair and landing before the last hit is safe on block as a pressure move.

Kirby is a reactionary charecter, his gameplan revolves around getting the oponent off stage and then gimping.

The evidence you give on kirby being good is chudat, but he is a great player and would be winning sax with any char he decided to use, it also doesnt hurt that the people at sax just do not play the kirby MU right at all aside from pink fresh.

 

[Ace55]

I'm a little late with the Ganon buff talk but I think giving him some sort of reflector (I won't be missin nB) and buffing the speed of (grounded) upB to be on par with shieldgrabs would go a long way. Allowing him to grab lower and making up- and downsmash more reliable would be helpful too.

Wait nvm about Warlock Punch, just let his ftilt reflect stuff so I can die laughing every match.

 

[Oracle]

I know how to make samus viable

Spoiler

EXTENDUUUUUURRRRRRRRRRRR

 

[The_NZA]

Reductionism can make any character's game seem 1-dimensional. See:


Ness: PK Fire, D-throw, Fair, Bair

Not a reduction. THATS THE NESS WAY SON!

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ike: Quick Draw
Marth: Fair-Spacing
DDD: Being Fat
Roy: Hoh, hoh
Link: Boomerang
Wario: Farts
Donkey Kong: Nachos

EVERYONE SUX.

 

[Bryonato]

Why is every character in this game so terrible amirite

 

[FlamingForce]

Ike: Quick Draw

Roy: Hoh, hoh

Dont forget HIIII-YAH

 

[Terotrous]

On spacies she has guaranteed d-throw in to back-air at killing percents. D-throw will almost always lead into at least one aerial, unless it's a floaty at fairly high percent.

Unfortunately it seems like it's usually Uair or Fair, neither of which can kill very well.

Dash attack is super overrated, it can be pivot grabed by a lot of the cast or just simply shielded or idk run away and punish the end lag because it is super easy to see when kirby is going to dash attack!

Those are pretty stupid statements to be honest. Marth can also FSmash every Dash Attack in the game if you space it perfectly. This does not make all Dash Attacks useless, because every character has options when dashing and you don't know they're going to go for the dash attack. This applies to Kirby just as well, whose Dash Attack is generally fast and safe but he still has the option to jump and do an aerial, grab, or whatever else while dashing.

Yes his edge gaurding is great ill agree on that. No he is not hard to edge gaurd, kirby has slow air movement and even with cutter dash his recovery is very telagraphed. With him loosing all jumps from being hit out of both variants of up-B, vs any competant oponent this means death once that happens.

Kirby has so many jumps he can come back from almost anywhere without using Up B at all. He generally shouldn't have to Up B unless he was the one doing the edgeguarding, in which case there's no one on stage to worry about. You also have to be wary of going deep to hit Kirby because his air to air is very good and he can suck you up for Kirbycide.

His combo game is nowhere near the combo heavy chars so i dont understand "has a good combo game" that is just false.

It's not the best of the best or anything but it's good enough to put in damage when he gets in. I would consider a "good combo game" to be "they can generally put on 30-60% damage when they land a good hit", which Kirby is capable of.

The evidence you give on kirby being good is chudat, but he is a great player and would be winning sax with any char he decided to use

He used to play Ice Climbers and wasn't winning nearly as much with them. And it's not like Sax is free or anything, Boss, Pink Fresh, and Junebug are all very legitimate.

It's also not just Chu anyway, though he opened my eyes to the greatness of Kirby, it's Kirby's general toolset and my own experience of playing him. There are many reasons that Kirby was bad in Melee, like a godawful dash attack, throws you could mash out of, low damage potential, lack of kill power, etc, all of which have been made better in this game. He's looking much more like his Smash 64 self, who was top tier.

 

[Soft Serve]

responses in bold.

It would take way too much space to quote all 5 so I'll just name each character and respond to it.


Link:
Up B and even shield grab are also viable OOS options in some situations.

I think the important part is the In some situations. Yes, he can Up-b, Up-smash, and shield grab OoS. If any of them miss, get shielded or side stepped, he will eat a full combo. They also come out incredibly slow for OoS options. Assuming perfect inputs, so either canceling the first possible frame of jump squat or nairing the first frame airborne, they fastest hitbox will be up-b, which comes out 9 frames after you leave shield stun. Nair comes out 10 frames, up-smash comes out in 12, and grab in 12. If any of these but Nair miss he eats a punish. They are good options to punish unsafe moves on shield, but for them to be good OoS options when under actual pressure they can't be that slow or that punishable. Rolling is still his best option.

Mewtwo:
he doesn't really struggle to rack up damage for his handful of killing moves to connect. UThrow is an amazing kill move on everyone but fast-fallers, and he has other options to deal with them so he can live with that weakness.
He definitely doesn't have trouble wracking up damage. But like I said, even if up-throw is a good kill move, and he has options in neutral to deal with floaties for a while, he still has to land a raw fair/grab/smash out of neutral to get kills. He had this problem in melee and he still has it. Unless there is some cool tilt > teleport fair set-ups that haven't been fully explored yet Mewtwo struggles in killing characters past where he can combo them.


Kirby:
The main thing which makes Kirby's cutter dash a decent approach is the fact that he could do the regular final cutter instead. If you try to rush forward and punish it you're risking getting hit by the dash version. The two versions are reactable so you shouldn't go to it all the time but it can be useful in some situations. The strength of Kirby's recovery, edgeguarding, and wall of pain lie in the massive number of jumps that he has, coupled with the option for either vertical or horizontal recovery. Kirby can go super far out for punishes / edgeguards and never have to worry about whether or not he'll make it back. Compare Wario, whose wall of pain is scary on paper but less so in practice simply because he does need to get back onstage at some point. Puff's WoP is still decent but she does need to actually hit someone first, and she has far less options for doing that than Kirby does.
Using kirby's final cutter in neutral is just sticking out a huge flag saying "I don't want this stage control, please run in and shield my cutter and take it from me." I really don't think that mixing up the two cutters in neutral is a good mix up when running forward and shielding covers both of them. Being "useful in some situations" doesn't make it an approach.
Wall of pain isn't solely carrying people off the ledge. That is an extension of it, when it lies solely in the ability to create a Wall of spaced, disjointed aerials in front of the opponent. Kirby lacks air speed and weaving capacity. Spaced bairs are great in neutral but his best aerial to capitalize off of is fair. I also would like to know why you think Puff's WoP is "decent but needs to actually hit someone first." I honestly don't see how she has any less ability to hit someone with her bair than kirby with his fair/bair. She has better mobility and gap closing, and a much more flexible air game. Jiggs may seriously suffer in this game but I don't think her WoP is any less effective than it was before.

Sheik:
I think you're somewhat overthinking Sheik. She's still fast, strong, and has ridiculous combos on most of the cast. It's true that she's lost a bit since Melee (which is why I moved her down to upper mid), but she's still fairly scary.
That blanket statement could be thrown onto most of the cast. Falcon and sonic are fast faster and have better combos. Roy too. She has the same run and walk speed as donkey kong and he has ridiculous combos on most of the cast. I don't think she lost anything too important from melee, i'm saying other characters just shine more. She is definitely very scary, most of the cast is.

 

[roman5hero]

but Kirby's dash attack isn't safe! and to have it combo you cannot use it from super close or Kirby just goes right through them, this means you must commit to it at a distance that the opponent can react to it. use the dash attack as a combo extender or tech chase is the best use.

why would you go off stage vs Kirby to edge guard him? sure he has jumps but they are slow and telegraphed and therefore easy to hit

 

[Chevy]

Unfortunately it seems like it's usually Uair or Fair, neither of which can kill very well.

Oops, D-throw is only DI dependant to bair spacies, I was thinking of Dtilt, Up-throw would probably work though. Anyway you can still usually Nair of Bair out of a throw in most situations that you can Uair of Fair, so it's pilot error to not kill them when you have the chance.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Tero, you're confusing the ability to get back to the stage from long distances with a versatile/hard to edgeguard recovery. Only one of those qualifiers applies to Kirby.

You're *severely* underrated how big a role airspeed plays in Walling opponents. Kirby's average aerial speed and drift capabilities hold him back here.

And saying that Charge Shot is Samus' only kill option proves you know less than zilch about the character.

Ripple's pretty spot on about Samus though. Though I feel like I must say that 1-D =/= bad necessarily.

 

[Ripple]

Ripple's pretty spot on about Samus though. Though I feel like I must say that 1-D =/= bad necessarily.

I didn't mean to imply that it did

 

[Droß]

Oracle, Dakpo, myself, probably others have won tournaments with GnW. (Dakpo was statistically one of the best players last year, too)

There have been plenty of top 8 and top 5 placements with this character.

way back in 2.5 iirc, GnW won a tournament before Mario did.

I didn't know. I heard about P:M about a month ago, so I only know of v3.02. I'm glad G&W is so viable; he's a cool character to watch.

 

[1FD]

You are underestimating Samus as well, she is a super solid character. She did decent against space animals in melee, and her tools aren't exclusive to fast fallers. She is a way better character in this game. Stop sleepin on Samus

She could manage ok because of things like upB out of shield but you can't even ledge cancel it on most platforms anymore because of momentum changes after using it from the ground and the different stages. She's way better but her arch-type is still limited to pushing people away and not so much touching into death combos like most of the cast. She's great for what she does (way better than Melee) but she still does the same thing really.

Mewtwo:

Spoiler

His punish game on non-fast fallers is very subpar, and aside from getting nice shadow claws off of a read or a set up (Footstool DJC fair works people) he doesn't have kill options on floaties. Like, he can kill with Fair, up-throw at higher percents, and smashes off of reads. He is a good character but still struggles from issues that have always plagued him.

This is only if you play him like Melee+ instead of project M as if you're m2k before studying the game in the basement for a year or something. Wait a bit and he might do something like incorporate downB kills which are superfree and easy to set up on floaties (and spacies) at any % at any time. Then it will become more trendy to know m2 has good punishes instead of just a few people doing it good. His ddGrab game mixed with Uptilt and DJCUairs make his ground game beat most things in neutral and combo into the touch of deaths easy too.
Sometimes I think people like nausicaa and umbreon are some of the few people who know what goes on in this game when new stuff comes out.

No offense I just mean that the punish game is so bad with new and molded characters unless it's simple like Dk or melee originated like m2 on spacies, but even those 2 have so much depth not brought to the surface. At least they can touch of death some stuff even in early to 1 year metagames.
Look at where you put Wolf on your list for example and yet his punish game is pretty terrible even from players considered good right now too. Do you think he can land hits in neutral that lead to touch of deaths on all characters right now? Or do you think it is something you can see him doing or have seen enough of and think it will become normal eventually? Why not with mewtwo? Is your basis for not being that way with m2 based on melee m2s and personal troubles when experimenting with the character yourself? So far it seems like m2 has an easier time landing hits out of neutral, and does more with uair juggles than wolf can do outside of niche combos. That's if you look at m2k compared to sw and chill etc, yet that's tiny for resources and analysis and doesn't show much of anything really.

Just my 2 cents hope it helps somehow maybe



To add also about Samus. The new roll doesn't add much but make up for upB things not being as effective against more distance-fighting characters and not being as safe overall. Her charge shot and grab were normalized but she didn't benefit from that. Her grab was great because it was so long (FURTHER THAN THE ATTACK RANGE OF THE SPACE AROUND HER PEOPLE TRIED TO AVOID) and that's why it was so good with her overall game. The same for the charge shot landing lag being worse now since she can't fake landing lagless or missiless or whatever and shoot one just before landing to bait people into getting hit by projectiles and trapped in her ATTACK SPACE when they thought they would be safe.
She actually became more one-dimensional and almost like lucario with that old 1 thing beats all their stuff in project M because of this type of stuff. It's good that crawling and buffs to all her stuff saved the day a little bit.
She is niche with extremes as an arch-type and normalizing her hurts her. It would be like trying to make Ganon faster and weaker just to deal with people and you might as well just make 20 versions of the same character under this tampering. @Nausicaa @Umbreon @ Ripple help me i suck at explaining stuff and I want to know if this makes sense or is right and I trust you guys mostly

 

[Juushichi]

GnW is at his strongest iteration currently, for the person who asked. His weakest was 2.1, I believe.

 

[trash?]

GnW's only flaws that make him mid-to-high and not high-tier is hints of inconsistency. not even really with judgement, moreso **** like the random trajectory on his neutral b being the difference between a successful gimp and a ballsed-up one

still incredibly good, though. I feel like the GnW/Wolf matchup is greatly helped that wolf's lasers are predictable enough to downb, but don't quote me on that one

 

[Paradoxium]

GnW is at his strongest iteration currently, for the person who asked. His weakest was 2.1, I believe.

Wasn't his frying pan stronger at one point? Like i remember it shooting out super foods

 

[Bryonato]

Yes. In 2.6 they gave him super food.

So glad that was removed

 

[Juushichi]

2.6 pan hit on shield was not stronger, but it was +7 because it had no landing lag. It's now +4 because we decided to keep in the same as similar specials (lasers, etc), which have a few frames of heavy land lag.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure if 3.0 Watch is stronger than 2.6, but people enjoy playing against it more.

 

[1FD]

Superfoods didn't help much, what makes GW good is hard hitboxes that are quick and rangy to throw out and basically do what Samus TRIES TO DO but can follow through all the way since it's not limited to FSmash and FTilt but transfers to his aerials and he can actually set up and complete touch of deaths off those big*** hits.
He's also limited in the same manner because his build type is just like that. Outside of hard hitboxes to force things and some good bait and punishes with everything from ground speed to upBs and Dtilts, he still doesn't actually have ways to insure he can open people up for those hard hits to LAND or flexibility enough to bait people into hits harder punishes without going on a bit of a limb or simply flatout hard reading-baiting them into it.
Great char but he can't straight out break things like a lot of the cast can in some way. Can't be broken easily either though. Reminds me of shiek in that sense.
I'm kind of regurgitating stuff I read here and elsewhere a long time ago between Juushi and Nausi that made a lot of sense to me, so hopefully this can make sense to others.

 

[Terotrous]

Mewtwo:
He definitely doesn't have trouble wracking up damage. But like I said, even if up-throw is a good kill move, and he has options in neutral to deal with floaties for a while, he still has to land a raw fair/grab/smash out of neutral to get kills. He had this problem in melee and he still has it. Unless there is some cool tilt > teleport fair set-ups that haven't been fully explored yet Mewtwo struggles in killing characters past where he can combo them.

This is also something that's true for a lot of the cast, but generally if you have good mobility and good normals it's not that hard to get a grab at neutral (also consider Marth, Sheik, etc). M2's grab seems to be pretty good overall, which helps.

Jigglypuff:
I also would like to know why you think Puff's WoP is "decent but needs to actually hit someone first." I honestly don't see how she has any less ability to hit someone with her bair than kirby with his fair/bair. She has better mobility and gap closing, and a much more flexible air game. Jiggs may seriously suffer in this game but I don't think her WoP is any less effective than it was before.

Jiggs has the world's least flexible everything. It's literally all weave into Fair or Bair. Her horrible ground speed and ground normals give her almost no other approach options, and her specials are all useless at neutral. At least Kirby has an acceptable ground game that can also allow him to get grabs. I feel like he also generally does better at coming in from above, despite the fact that their Dairs are fairly similar.

Sheik:
That blanket statement could be thrown onto most of the cast. Falcon and sonic are fast faster and have better combos. Roy too. She has the same run and walk speed as donkey kong and he has ridiculous combos on most of the cast. I don't think she lost anything too important from melee, i'm saying other characters just shine more. She is definitely very scary, most of the cast is.

Well of course it's not entirely that, Sheik is a generally balanced character who also hits hard and has big combos. Her normals are much faster and safer than DK's, and she has a projectile, which allows her to vary her approach more. She also has better recovery than the likes of DK and Falcon.

but Kirby's dash attack isn't safe! and to have it combo you cannot use it from super close or Kirby just goes right through them

Going through someone isn't terrible, it creates a mixup of sorts between dash attack and grab, even if it's not a super damaging one it's still fairly safe if you can make your opponent respect it. He can also dash attack off the ledge, which is even safer and allows more follow ups.

why would you go off stage vs Kirby to edge guard him? sure he has jumps but they are slow and telegraphed and therefore easy to hit

If you don't go offstage he can just recover low and grab the edge (possibly via airdodge), which most characters have trouble hitting. If you grab the ledge and just wait for him for a ledge drop bair or something then you're risking his air to air game and you're pretty susceptible to getting sucked up.

Tero, you're confusing the ability to get back to the stage from long distances with a versatile/hard to edgeguard recovery. Only one of those qualifiers applies to Kirby.

Kirby's recovery is still quite versatile. He has a lot of jumps, so if he can make it back to the stage in, say, 3 jumps, that means he has 2 other jumps to work with. He also has the option to recover either horizontally or vertically, which is always helpful. He can also potentially recover high from pretty much anywhere and use stone to make it back to the stage, which is another recovery option. Oh, and he has great anti-edgeguarding due to the quality of his air-to-air game.

I don't see how this recovery isn't better than like 75% of the cast. Compare someone like Roy. What does he have? One midair jump and a single vertical option. The only thing Kirby is lacking is a tether option, but there's only a few characters with those.

And saying that Charge Shot is Samus' only kill option proves you know less than zilch about the character.

I never said it was the only option period, it's just the only great one. After 120-130% or so she has others, but as a character who doesn't rack up damage super fast you'd generally prefer not to let your opponents live that long.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Why doesn't olimar have a zair

 

[Terotrous]

Why doesn't olimar have a zair

Because his tether is a special move and not a grab input?

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Because his tether is a special move and not a grab input?

what's stopping him from having two tethers that go in different directons?

 

[Chevy]

I never said it was the only option period, it's just the only great one. After 120-130% or so she has others, but as a character who doesn't rack up damage super fast you'd generally prefer not to let your opponents live that long.

I don't think any character needs more than one move as powerful as Charge Shot.