Time to Throw Down - Almost everything you ever wanted to know about throws

[UnSaxon51]

KO percentages are updated with no Directional Influence. Some interesting additions.

New grab testing with dashes, pivots, and durations is about 1/3 complete.

 

[Zinc Elemental]

You make Lucario look sucky. His pummeling, albeit weak, it EXTREMELY fast. Good for refreshing and the dthrow leads into aerial combos. Also, what about his Force Palm grab? That KOs AND Chaingrabs!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you only refresh one move if you do "fast" pummels at full speed?

 

[DanGR]

For 8 months, I've been under the impression that Olimar's white and blue grabs tied in grab length. (Here is what I thought: blue=white>red=yellow>purple) Are you sure blue's grab is longer?

 

[UnSaxon51]

Just checked it, and you are correct. That will go up with the rest of the update on grab range.

 

[hotgarbage]

Holy crap. Fantastic thread. Thanks

 

[io728]

Awesome. Just pure awesomeness. the 3 second rule is something I need to remember.
THE PK BOYS IS AWESOME!

 

[Samuelson]

Cool but i'm pretty sure Lucario's Fthrow can't chain even at low percents. You should also do tests on characters who's special is a grab like Lucario and Bowser's Side B.

 

[Megavitamins]

Whoa, nice list. This must have taken quite a while haha.

 

[JackieRabbit5]

good guide, very thorough

i've never been too concerned about throws...just kinda do whatever i feel like lol

 

[UnSaxon51]

Bump.

Dash and Pivot grabs are up. Standing grabs are also updated.

 

[Wave⁂]

It should be noted that if you pummel too fast, it is registered as one attack in the attack depreciation queue thing.

 

[XienZo]

Wow, tons of new info.

I just want to add that outside of yoshi, air/ground releases are based on how tall the grabbing character is relative to the character being grabbed, so if you tested them all on Mario, it isn't quite accurate.

However, since it is based on height, you can make a list of characters based on their height and say that a character air releases those below them in the list and ground release the character above them in the list.

 

[UnSaxon51]

I just want to add that outside of yoshi, air/ground releases are based on how tall the grabbing character is relative to the character being grabbed, so if you tested them all on Mario, it isn't quite accurate.

However, since it is based on height, you can make a list of characters based on their height and say that a character air releases those below them in the list and ground release the character above them in the list.

I'm not exactly sure how accurate that is, considering that Link, Samus, ROB, and Charizard all had ground releases against Mario, and they are obviously taller than him.

However, this is something to consider. I will definitely go back and check it out.

 

[XienZo]

Well, TECHINICALLY, it depends on if their feet is touching the ground(they'll always air relase if you grab them over the ledge), which is related to how tall they are, but also how high the grabber holds them. Also, if they are in hitstun from a pummel at that moment, they will always ground release except for Yoshi.

 

[UnSaxon51]

Ah, that makes more sense. I will double check that later tonight.

 

[Tyr_03]

All that's missing to me is how many pummels you should try per percentage which I would assume would vary between characters since their pummel speeds are different. I don't know how you would even go about testing this really but I would think it would take two humans. Amazingly good thread guy.

 

[Foxy]

I think a great addition would be the frame duration of the throws as well, as that could lead to some interesting information about combo-potential, such as comparing the duration of Marth's throws for an aerial set-up or the like.

 

[Natch]

Holy crap, I didn't know PT could kill with any upthrows outside of Ivy's. Adding to that, holy crap Zard's upthrow is almost as good as his dthrow.

 

[Kitamerby]

Something is wrong with the Damage-Per-Second. Why the hell can Lucas get in as many grab attacks as Lucario? Something is seriously wrong here.

 

[XienZo]

I'm pretty sure he meant 3 attacks per second, because if you can do 3% per hit and you're hitting nine times a second but still doing only 9 damage, you're doing something wrong.

 

[Steeler]

hey, is it possible to force the opponent to jump break by tapping the jump button before they release?

 

[Kitamerby]

I'm pretty sure he meant 3 attacks per second, because if you can do 3% per hit and you're hitting nine times a second but still doing only 9 damage, you're doing something wrong.

At 200%, Lucario should be getting like 13% per second with 9 attacks. His list is entirely screwy.

 

[Tenki]

hey, is it possible to force the opponent to jump break by tapping the jump button before they release?

if it's controllable by anyone, it's controllable by the person being grabbed, not the grabber.

 

[XienZo]

Grabber can force an air release by:
picking Yoshi or a tall chracter and not pummeling
grabbing over the ledge

Grabber can force a ground release by:
pummeling them so the other character is in hitstun when they escape
picking a short character or using DK's cargo carry
LOLing when they try to hit jump to escape due to it having nothing do to with air/ground release

Grabee can try to create more air releases by:
picking a short character
playing against Yoshi
using Snake's cipher next to the edge, but it won't end up good for you

Grabee can try to create more ground releases by:
picking a tall character
picking a character that gets infinite grab released, but this one isn't so hot either

 

[Steeler]

balls. i guess no grab release on meta then...

 

[UnSaxon51]

@Kitamerby: I'm in process of double-checking the exact values for pummeling, but basically, Lucas does 3% damage per hit, and is able to to approximately 3 attacks per second; this comes out to 9 damage per second. The "9 attacks" from the list was over a 3 second duration. Sorry if that wasn't clear. As for Lucario... yeah, his DPS is really weird, but I'll be checking it again.

My current project (once pummling is updated) is a full list of character vs character grab release values. It's pretty massive.

 

[Villi]

Very good read. *subscribes* Looking forward to the grab release info!

 

[Mmac]

Nice work on the values of the Dash and Pivot Grabs. I knew that Yoshi's Dash Grab was long, but I didn't knew it was THAT long though O_o


The only that stood out for me is that Yoshi and Lucas have the same length in Pivot Grabs. I secondary Lucas and use his Pivot Grab just as much as Yoshi, and I can say without a doubt that Yoshi's is much longer than Lucas's.

You are using Quick Pivots for testing Pivot Grabs right? Also, Is Sonic's Pivot Grab REALLY that bad?!?

Another thing that I can suggest is that how Quickly the Grab Frames activate during the grabs.

 

[UnSaxon51]

I did use quick pivots for most characters. The only times I made exceptions to this rule were when it was virtually impossible to do so continuously. Ironically, I distinctly remember Sonic being one of those cases. Because his dash is SO ridiculously fast, I pretty much had to base his on a running pivot. I think Dedede may have been an exception, too, based on his very short initial dash length. But yeah, Sonic's pivot is pretty bad.
As for the discrepancy with Lucas and Yoshi, I'll re-check it just to be sure.

 

[Tenki]

I did use quick pivots for most characters. The only times I made exceptions to this rule were when it was virtually impossible to do so continuously. Ironically, I distinctly remember Sonic being one of those cases. Because his dash is SO ridiculously fast, I pretty much had to base his on a running pivot. I think Dedede may have been an exception, too, based on his very short initial dash length. But yeah, Sonic's pivot is pretty bad.
As for the discrepancy with Lucas and Yoshi, I'll re-check it just to be sure.

lol

Try this-
(you have to be in front of the place you're trying to pivot grab from): tap backwards once (initial dash's stop // foxtrot stop) > pivot grab input.

It might work.

On a trivial note, some people claim that Sonic's side-B > shieldcancel+grab has more distance than normal shieldgrabbing. I suspect that this is just placebo and not really true, but it'd be nice if you could check that.


But yeah, Sonic's pivot grab generally sucks and is almost never used, unless you're running past an opponent to bait a spotdodge, and pivot grabbing him out of it xD

 

[UnSaxon51]

Pummel information updated.
Also, I've re-tooled the Grab Release section. Currently I only have the four Mario characters, Yoshi, and Olimar, but it should give you an idea of how the complete section should look.

 

[Natch]

Hey UnSaxon, the only things I can think of that you could possibly add is when the first "grabbing hitbox" comes out and how long it stays out. As a fake example, while Lucas has 35 frames of lag if he whiffs it, the "grabbing hitbox" might come out on fram 10 and stay out 'till frame 20 or something.

The duration may be hard to test, but I'd really like to know how fast I can grab someone when at point blank.

Oh, keep in mind that the point the "Grabbing hitbox" comes out will be determined solely by when the grab actually reached the opponent. For example. Link's tether will take a lot longer to grab someone if they're farther away.

 

[smaci92]

ahh...now this is a good thread...perfect for my Ice Climberzzzzzzzzzzzz!

 

[M.K]

This is extremely useful! Thank you so much for this, I read every bit of it.

 

[Guilhe]

Bumped, great guide. I've suggested the addition of your guide to Samurai Panda’s index, I hope you’ll add grab release information in the future.

 

[PKNintendo]

Cool thread.

 

[zacharia zako]

VERY nice work this must have taken u for ever to collect all of that usful data!!!!!!!!!!!

an idea to smash world forums: MAKE IT SO U CAN SAVE POSTS SO YOU CAN WORK ON THEM LATER OR AT ANOTHER TIME IF THEY'RE GOING TO BE BIG

 

[eman]

well done with this....

 

[DUB]

Good read. Didn't know Dedede's back throw did 16. Guess you hardly ever see it used.

 

[JCav]

wow, this is a very useful guide


nicely done