There are many things to do to make fighting MK easier. Here are some basic tips, although many of this is common knowledge, if any of this isn't here's some stuff that could help you:
Tornado. The top/center of the Tornado is the weak point. If say... DeDeDe jumps above MK and does a falling Bair, it will hit through (of course, if MK makes sure to be horizontal to MK so as that DDD only hits the side of the tornado, the Tornado will win, but most of the time jumping over it and faling on it with Bair is good, at least with DDD. Many moves beat Tornado (most moves in a MK ditto actually), although I don't know the specifics for each one, I'm pretty sure someone was making a list for that somewhere.
theres not that many times your going to find yourself above the center of the tornado. Most short hops arent high enough and full jumping way above your opponent all the time isnt going to get you anywhere. I guess you have to see it coming or predict it? That requires some pretty hard prediction skills.
You can block Tornado and angle your shield up and be practically invulnerable to tornado the entire time, and then dash grab MK in his lag (with some characters, but most of them can retaliate just fine). Angling your shield up prevents MK from shield stabbing you when he aims it high at your head.
Wearing down your shield is always dangerous and for characters with slow ground speed MK can usually just move back away from them far enough so that you don't have time to grab him in lag,
Lastly, and this is very useful, the BEGINNING of Tornado seems to POP PEOPLE UP a lot, so MANY characters (even semi-big ones like Rob) can just DI (or smash DI, which is pushing up really fast as you get hit basically) can just repeatedly hit up on the control stick really fast and escape the Tornado (even semi-big characters like Rob can do this really well). Another MK, or a Game and Watch, (among other characters I probably am not thinking about) can counterattack with a Dair, while most of the characters can simply DI up and try to double jump away (often footstool jumping away). Bowser, DDD, and DK seem to get ***** by Tornado the hardest, so this sometimes helps for them, but not as well as the majority of the characters.
ok, no problems here well said
So keep those things in mind: Smash DI up (repeatedly if necessary, although only 1 good one is needed obviously), especially at the beginning of the Tornado. If you see a Tornado coming, just block it (and if necessary, angle your shield up) and you can often counterattack with most characters, and if you predict a Tornado just either stay above MK or prepare for a move that will go through it.
Shuttle Loop. The thing about shuttle loop (an aerial shuttle loop) is that it gimps (a gimp is a low % kill) really well if you don't DI it ....... but increases ONLY SLIGHTLY with % compared to other moves. Basically what this means is, if you make sure to DI it, you will still live to really high %s. I make sure to be holding toward the stage always, so that my DI is at least "decent" and I won't really be "gimped" by it. I also try to stay directly above MK, and sometimes do a falling aerial (Snake Bair, DDD DJ [double jump] Dair, MK DJ Dairs, Lucario's Dair ***** it).
Staying directly above MK will make the odds fairly high that the shuttle loop hits you really weak with the top part of it, sending you almost nowhere, allowing you to land safely. A common way around shuttle loop is to predict it with air dodging which makes a missed shuttle loop easily punished by something like a Wario F smash or slightly charged down smash for example (or staying out of range of it then getting to the edge), but once you do that it starts to become predictible then MK can easily Dair or Nair you after your air dodge lag. Other options are doing an aerial attack that can hit through it or trade (while also holding toward the stage so your DI isn't bad), or mashing double jump dairs (with MK and DDD doing a lot of double jump dairs is a good anti-shuttle loop. Remember that shuttle loop is weak damage wise (8% in air) and it's main purpose is to gimp you without DIing it. If you remember to DI it, while doing a guessing game between aerials or air dodging while making sure to DI towards the stage at all times, you shouldn't get ***** by it too badly. It's purpose is to put you in a bad position, and it's actual priority is really low.
If MK is below you and tries to shuttle loop at the EDGE, you can block the first part and then do either a shield hop fair or bair (depending which way you are facing) or even drop under him and uair/nair. This also counts for a grounded shuttle loop, as if you block the initial rising shuttle loop he is basically saying HIT ME WITH WHATEVER YOU WANT as he glides above you and leaves himself vulnerable to things such as GW's Nair or Uair -> Up smash.
What about the shuttle loop, glide attack to downsmash approach? Theres so little lag you basically have no choice but to just get out of the way; which will never win you a match.
Spot dodge=you get downsmashed
Attack= you get outprioritized
Airdodge= by the time you land you'll probably get hit with a 2nd dsmash or MK can simply move away
Down tilt seems to trip like... 1/3 times? Vidjo said it trips more when it's spaced or hits their feet, and this seems to be true, although it could also be coincidence. It is a defensive move, and usually when I see MKs try to do that to me I roll backwards or try to shield grab (as DDD you can shield grab MK's down tilt since he is leaning over, although I don't know how well this works for the other characters). Rolling backwards is always safe, and since MK's down tilt may or may not trip you, they will usually try to follow up anyway (with like a dash grab or something) so you can immediately counterattack them since you can expect it. The primary purpose is to trip them, and since most people follow up after the first down tilt (either down tilt -> dash grab or down tilt -> down smash), often a good option is to just dodge right away then react to what they do and punish the lag they would have.
when your only option is to "roll backwards or pick DDD" thats not too great...Anything else we can come up with here? Obviously projectiles but what else, like what if you need a KO?
If MK does get you a little into the air, most MKs will do 1 of 2 things
1) follow up right away (most of the time the beginner/intermediate MKs do this
2) try to punish your small air dodge landing lag, assuming you will air dodge
Projectiles (GOOD projectiles) are good against MK since he has none and needs to approach you (although he can easily get to you,the reason is cuz being offensive is easier to throw him off, and it is harder for him to camp you if he attempts to). Once MK gets used to you running away and spamming projectiles, he is going to run at you. Once he does this, dash grab him. If Snake is fighting MK, you can grenade camp and then F tilt MK when he runs at you. When MK gets used to that he will eventually start to run and shield, so expect it and dash grab him (into down throw, which is a 50/50 chance of a tilt, or even a tech chase Dair if needed).
im willing to bet if MK runs at you and you run at him to dashgrab you will get a face full of dashattack or SHaerial. Remember metaknights amazing priority? Is dashgrab really going to go through it. Dash grabbing an apporaching MK will take quite the timing assuming he is throwing in attacks and not just running at you like an idiot.
Yes projectiles are good, but projectiles (at least most) arent going to KO!
it's hard to edge guard MK safely, but if you're at really high % already then it's not as bad to go for risky things. Just try to beat MK by %age though, center stage especially.
Theres really no option to edgeguard MK. Might as well have left this out... it kinda says " Well why not try to Ganon Dair him if your down two stocks anyway"
You can also edge hog MK's up B at the last second to kill him if he is really low when he does it (but they will try to up B you just before then, so you might wanna approach the edge then shield, so that you block the predictible coming up B). On smashville and battlefield MK can fly under it quickly, but on most stages he can't do it [very well]. (If he could you could just run to the other ledge and edge hog it, but I don't know if I've ever even had to do that before). I like invincible-aerial attacks vs MK from the ledge, at least in MK dittos it's good (invincible Nair).
please dont talk about how to USE metaknight to beat metaknight.
Most MKs down smash after glide attack, so if you are worried that you can't punish after glide attack, just wait until just after the probably-going-to-happen down smash.
Shield stun pushes me too far away to grab, downshash is probably done fast enough to deal with whatever else.
So yeah, those are some random tips I thought of maybe could help you people, but it mostly comes down to fighting MK center stage, use my Tornado tips, and have good DI.
Well anyway most of it was good, trying to help make the community more competitive is always a good thing so thanks for the post
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[Font="impact]Bowser King[/Font]
