• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Tips vs MetaKnight

Status
Not open for further replies.

The Real Inferno

Smash Hero
Joined
Jan 22, 2008
Messages
5,506
Location
Wichita, KS
I used to pick on these mistakes with Domo's Metaknight and do very well against him with characters like Donkey Kong, ROB, even Jiggz. Now, he doesn't make those same mistakes anymore. His approaches have grown more clever, and I'm noticing that my options are much more limited than they were before in getting those KO's. I find that these tips only really help against unexperienced Meta's who don't know to avoid falling into these patterns and traps and at top level play it won't be as big of a help. I would much rather read an expose on how to defeat M2K's meta rather than how to defeat Random Joe's Meta.
 

Lord Exor

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Sep 8, 2008
Messages
146
NNID
LordExor
3DS FC
0430-8460-0827
#1 Tip vs. MK: Throw the fight. It'll make it quick and painless.
 

unwelc0med

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
419
i'm guessing you did this so hopefully mk won't be banned?

but anyways, nice read, but the wall of text is kind of intimidating..
 

Dragonslayer9

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Messages
36
I understand how you feel but what about the low tier characters? MK basically dominates most of the Lower tiered characters and by banning him you would be able to actually use most of those weaker characters in tournaments.

Or at least soft-ban him like they do to Akuma in SSF2T, that way you can give some weaker characters a better chance of beating him.
 

ftl

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 4, 2008
Messages
498
Location
Champaign, IL
The lower-tier characters are mostly screwed anyway... Snake, DDD, etc can **** the lowers pretty bad too, though not quite as bad as MK.
 

TVTMaster

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Mar 7, 2008
Messages
124
I occasionally get my cousin Dave over, and he goes to VT and plays a seriously good MK. He plays people like Azen and Chillin pretty often, and **** his MK is tough. As Lucas, I usually get my kill be punishing two ways.

1. Dthrow chain can be punished to reasonable effect by either rolling backwards or using PK Fire to push back a bit. After he whiffs the grab, he usually goes in for another try or a Dsmash, but having Lucas's Fsmash ready means he gets sweetspotted if he dashes and plain hit if he rolls. It's probably because he doesn't use shFair as much as he should.

2. Shuttle Loop to glide attack is great when there's platforms- the lag is perfect for setting up Usmash if you time it right and he lands on a platform. If it doesn't get timed right, one of two things happens- he shields and survives, dropping down with Dair and proceeding to destroy, or he spotdodges and gets wrecked by the long hitbox. Sometimes they just try to move fast and Usmash gets him then, too.

I never get more than two stock off him, but punishing a whiffed Dthrow or glide attack is the best way to KO in my experience. Lucas can also force him to roll by using PKT as a horizontal projectile and then following up with a smash, usually Dsmash in case he tornadoes.
 

Denzi

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 25, 2008
Messages
3,483
Location
Cleveland, OH
I read through it ; it's great advice but, to keep it from scaring away other people, do you think you could use different font sizes/colors (maybe even bolding/italics to highlight the really important parts) to seperate the sections? I think it make it easier to read overall.
This right here. Other than that, extremely helpful.
 

BrawlBro

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Messages
770
Location
michigan
couldn't presenting this info simply make it that much easier for them to patch up these bad habits and cause Metaknight to do even better? With that being said, I think this advice could be very helpful initially but then it would become a hinderance because Metaknight players would quickly find a way to stay dominately on top.

.

nah definitely better he posts it. Hes one of the best mk's (I think) so hearing it from him you should believe its good info.

And the things he pointed out most mk's probably know, or even if they just now found out they cant simply put a band aid on it. To fix these "holes" would require bad metaknights to actually become "shudder" ---good.

This thread does not HELP metaknight.
 

salaboB

Smash Champion
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
2,136
nah definitely better he posts it. Hes one of the best mk's (I think) so hearing it from him you should believe its good info.

And the things he pointed out most mk's probably know, or even if they just now found out they cant simply put a band aid on it. To fix these "holes" would require bad metaknights to actually become "shudder" ---good.

This thread does not HELP metaknight.
By your logic, it also doesn't hurt him. The good ones already were aware of these tips and traps.

So just going off what you said, it's a wash.
 

Vulcan55

Smash Lord
Joined
May 7, 2008
Messages
1,824
Location
May-Lay
Or at least soft-ban him like they do to Akuma in SSF2T, that way you can give some weaker characters a better chance of beating him.
I do not think you understand the soft-ban.
The SBR won't just come out with a new rule set and say, "Oh yeah, and MK is soft banned. Everyone better than [Pro's name here] cannot play him in tournaments where [X amount of money] or greater is at stake."
This would cause an uproar among pros concerning who is "better".
You can't define a soft-ban that way. It is an individual "rule".
Some individuals that make up the "top players" simply decided against using Akuma in serious tournaments. M2K clearly shows that he believes MK is not ban-worthy.
You however, can soft-ban MK.
You can choose not to use him in tourneys.
But I don't think that's what you intended.

Also, lol @ this thread being hijacked by ban arguments.

@M2k: I thought it was a very useful thread.
Many people will probably find it useful. Hell, I found it useful, and I rarely play Brawl anymore. What people don't seem to get though, is that strategies always evolve and you can always counter a strategy.
 

Pierce7d

Wise Hermit
Joined
Dec 20, 2006
Messages
6,289
Location
Teaneck, North Bergen County, NJ, USA
3DS FC
1993-9028-0439
Uh, while these are all things I already knew, I found it an excellent read. Neo, you're ODing. If you really knew Jason you'd know that if MK got banned, he'd keep winning anyway, because he'd still **** with the rest of the top characters, and that he honestly wants people to get better. Seriously, I'd expect you to know that.

The thing about MK is, you need to know your options. I've been saying this for a long time . . . Dsmash is NOT safe on block. Learn WHAT you can punish with, and punish.

For those that said you're never above the tornado, learn to DI. Seriously, if you get hit by the first part, and DI up and toward the center, you can either then attack or footstool out. Learn to angle your shield up, and down for dtilt. Angling the shield is super important in this game, and I bet almost NONE of you practice it ever.

Seriously, MK has awesome gimp options, but you need to learn to DI really well. Truth, M2k gimps me pretty well. Also truth, he doesn't even do it 1/4th as easily as he used to, ever since he told me to improve my DI. That's real talk. Also, when I get gimped, I usually have good options, and I was just out-guessed, or had bad DI. I've seen gimps that are impossible to evade, but against characters with even halfway decent recoveries, you have options.

Standing from the ledge is a good option. Probably the best most times.

Learn your options out of shield. Jumping out of shield is very effective. especially if you block a dtilt after angling your shield down. Learn it.

The other day, while fighting M2k, I learned that his glide attack CLASHES with Marth's jab, and puts Marth at advantage. I don't remember what we found when we tried D3's utilt. EXPERIMENT AND LEARN YOUR OPTIONS. Try unusual stuff, and learn new things.

Seriously, I only lose to good MKs (and btw, Inui is a good player NEO. You're better, yes, but not everyone has to be amazing just to be good. It's a relative term. I lose to players that are better than me, but even good players don't think I'm bad. People need to stop disrespecting each other for poor reasons).

Now, IMO, MK should still be banned. His option ratio vs. the rest of the cast is still ridiculous. Some people say the top characters in Melee aren't banned so MK shouldn't be. Well, I'm not good at Melee, and don't know it nearly as well. Maybe there are characters in Melee that do deserved to be banned. I can't say because I didn't play Melee. In Brawl, there are less reliable answers to MK, and fighting him is very often a guessing game, in which the odds are extremely stacked in MK's favor.

However, I do agree with M2k that for the vast majority of the cast, there is no hope even if MK is banned. Welcome to competative fighting. I don't even play other fighters, but to me this is an obvious fact. I think that waiting until next year to ban MK is a good idea. Even if there are options, it's better for the community on a whole if, on the level of play that 99% of the players play at, MK is a broken entity. Even if he's on the godly level which players such as M2k play at, he's not as broken, he's still broken in a real way to most of us, and it's still plausibly reliable to easily win with him. We're talking real players, with real skill, levels, at real tourneys, spending real money. Realistically, it's pretty dumb to say "Well, if you use these characters and play perfect, you could win." Guess what, if I was amazing, I could win with C.Falcon by perfect shielding almost everything, including physical attacks. From there, I could proceed to punish, and eventually K.O.. This is theoretically possible, but simply too unlikely to ever come into fruition to even consider. For most of us, even on highest level of play (right under m2k god level), this is NOT reality, and this game would be funner, more plausible, and dare I say more competative without him.
 

brinboy789

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
2,684
Location
Suffolk, Long Island, NY
However, I do agree with M2k that for the vast majority of the cast, there is no hope even if MK is banned. Welcome to competative fighting. I don't even play other fighters, but to me this is an obvious fact. I think that waiting until next year to ban MK is a good idea. Even if there are options, it's better for the community on a whole if, on the level of play that 99% of the players play at, MK is a broken entity. Even if he's on the godly level which players such as M2k play at, he's not as broken, he's still broken in a real way to most of us, and it's still plausibly reliable to easily win with him. We're talking real players, with real skill, levels, at real tourneys, spending real money. Realistically, it's pretty dumb to say "Well, if you use these characters and play perfect, you could win." Guess what, if I was amazing, I could win with C.Falcon by perfect shielding almost everything, including physical attacks. From there, I could proceed to punish, and eventually K.O.. This is theoretically possible, but simply too unlikely to ever come into fruition to even consider. For most of us, even on highest level of play (right under m2k god level), this is NOT reality, and this game would be funner, more plausible, and dare I say more competative without him.
lol remember the times when sakurai said that this was gonna be a balanced game? good times
 

FBM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
193
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada

∫unk

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
4,952
Location
more than one place
I'm not complaining about the predictable, easy metaknights.

It's the ones that mix it up that have the same ridiculous advantage over other characters while still being easy to play.

It makes no sense that I can play Marth for 100+ hours and have a similar level (competitive success wise) Metaknight after playing him for 1 hour.
 

Emblem Lord

The Legendary Lord
Joined
Aug 11, 2005
Messages
9,720
Location
Scotch Plains, NJ
NNID
ShinEmblemLord
3DS FC
3926-6895-0574
Switch FC
SW-0793-4091-6136
Marth boards is just too fearsome.

lolz@ NEO leading the charge.
 

Crizthakidd

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 1, 2007
Messages
2,619
Location
NJ
i like this. lets not have a smash game where a charcter is banned. just get good vs that char so the pple who main him can keep using him and eventually we will have to find counters to YOUR counters
 

FBM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
193
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
It makes no sense that I can play Marth for 100+ hours and have a similar level (competitive success wise) Metaknight after playing him for 1 hour.
Keep in mind that they have far more similar styles than a lot of characters, you put in the 100 hours with Marth FIRST (which is a lot of general Brawl experience), and that amazing characters with a minuscule learning curve aren't necessarily always better than those with a huge learning curve overall (64 Kirby was easy to play but Pika was still #1).
 

_Phloat_

Smash Champion
Joined
Dec 1, 2006
Messages
2,953
Location
Tennessee V_V
Keep in mind that they have far more similar styles than a lot of characters, you put in the 100 hours with Marth FIRST (which is a lot of general Brawl experience), and that amazing characters with a minuscule learning curve aren't necessarily always better than those with a huge learning curve overall (64 Kirby was easy to play but Pika was still #1).
He is right. General smash experience is a huge factor. Also, if you know the people you are playing against the matches may seem to get easier.
 

FBM

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 17, 2008
Messages
193
Location
Victoria, BC, Canada
He is right. General smash experience is a huge factor. Also, if you know the people you are playing against the matches may seem to get easier.
Just to add on to my previous post, I in no way disagree that MK is the best character in the game, which it may have sounded like I was, having used the Kirby/Pika 64 comparison.

But it's totally true that once you reach a certain skill level, picking up a new character is EXTREMELY easy, especially if you've seen videos or read guides that give you an idea of what you are shooting for.
 

Napilopez

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2008
Messages
1,775
Location
Columbia University, NY
-_-. Can people ot turn this into a ban discussion please? There's a thread just for that you know... I know that its hard to avoid on a thread like this, but yea. Also, yes this thread is to help avoid MK being banned. M2K said it himself in the first post. And frankly, I agree with him.

This thread should be about discussing the tips given by M2K. I'm not pointing out anyone specifically, just saying.
 

∫unk

Smash Master
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Messages
4,952
Location
more than one place
You know for your 64 reference... Kirby was easy to play and also easy to beat with Fox and Pikachu. And Kirby was easy to play because he was one dimensional in recovery/approach/and combo. In comparison it's hard to find bad options for Metaknight.

Pikachu isn't that hard to play you just need to learn to do weak u-airs.

Actually all the 64 chars don't take that much time to learn because the game isn't super deep, but sadly it's still deeper than Brawl.
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
M2K you said earlier that there are several characters who are even against MK. Who are these characters? Besides Snake which is debatable.
 

N@$H

Smash Rookie
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
3
Hey Mew2King, why don't you now do a match-up guide on how to beat Meta Knight with Captain Falcon? Now that would be impressive...
 

BUM163

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
1,940
i just read this thread. as a man that sticks with dk no matter the situation. do i think mk is cheap...... very much so. should he be banned? not yet. reason being... i remember fighting falcos and shieks in melee and how hard the fight was for me. eventually i learn the matchup and became real good at it.

the problem with m2k post and no offense to m2k is that he only knows how to be cheap lol. he doesn't play other characters low level so his information is only based on tournaments which is usually high tiers or top.

as a matter of fact mk is cheap to the point i won't even tell ya how you can cancel tornado lag.... if so i bet you i get him banned. only me and like 3 other people know and i won't say. mk does have weaknesses. he is light, power is not the best.... even though he can put damage real fast. his moves are noticeable the more you fight him. his tornado is weird. m2k had one point correct. you can move your shield to prevent shield stab... but the top of the tornado is not the weakpoint from what i experience.


the tornado weak point is the start of it and near the end. also characters like mario neutral air from the top usually works real good. also big characters can get out of it such as dk and bowser.... how do i know? i play spam and inui in tournament and always manage to break out. if i know i'm gonna get hit i just d.i towards where he is coming from.

now like i said, mk can cancel the lag on his tornado in a special way which i won't announce to maybe future wise. his shuttle loop gets beat by moves with staying power aka neutrals such as mario, samus, link, dk and others where the move continues to hit even after pressing a.

he shouldn't be banned till he is fully explore. remember this game juuuuuuuuuuuuuuuust came out. it took melee 3 years before wavedash was etablished thrust making melee one of the best fighting games known. but if people keep converting to mk......... then eventually i see no other choice just cause it will make the game extremely repetitve and boring.

any questions or just want to talk to me, my aim name is oni163 or pm me.
 

BUM163

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
1,940
with big people its tough to get out the tornado... but not impossible. i manage to do it.
 

En.Ee.Oh

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,527
Uh, while these are all things I already knew, I found it an excellent read. Neo, you're ODing. If you really knew Jason you'd know that if MK got banned, he'd keep winning anyway, because he'd still **** with the rest of the top characters, and that he honestly wants people to get better. Seriously, I'd expect you to know that.

The thing about MK is, you need to know your options. I've been saying this for a long time . . . Dsmash is NOT safe on block. Learn WHAT you can punish with, and punish.

For those that said you're never above the tornado, learn to DI. Seriously, if you get hit by the first part, and DI up and toward the center, you can either then attack or footstool out. Learn to angle your shield up, and down for dtilt. Angling the shield is super important in this game, and I bet almost NONE of you practice it ever.

Seriously, MK has awesome gimp options, but you need to learn to DI really well. Truth, M2k gimps me pretty well. Also truth, he doesn't even do it 1/4th as easily as he used to, ever since he told me to improve my DI. That's real talk. Also, when I get gimped, I usually have good options, and I was just out-guessed, or had bad DI. I've seen gimps that are impossible to evade, but against characters with even halfway decent recoveries, you have options.

Standing from the ledge is a good option. Probably the best most times.

Learn your options out of shield. Jumping out of shield is very effective. especially if you block a dtilt after angling your shield down. Learn it.

The other day, while fighting M2k, I learned that his glide attack CLASHES with Marth's jab, and puts Marth at advantage. I don't remember what we found when we tried D3's utilt. EXPERIMENT AND LEARN YOUR OPTIONS. Try unusual stuff, and learn new things.

Seriously, I only lose to good MKs (and btw, Inui is a good player NEO. You're better, yes, but not everyone has to be amazing just to be good. It's a relative term. I lose to players that are better than me, but even good players don't think I'm bad. People need to stop disrespecting each other for poor reasons).

Now, IMO, MK should still be banned. His option ratio vs. the rest of the cast is still ridiculous. Some people say the top characters in Melee aren't banned so MK shouldn't be. Well, I'm not good at Melee, and don't know it nearly as well. Maybe there are characters in Melee that do deserved to be banned. I can't say because I didn't play Melee. In Brawl, there are less reliable answers to MK, and fighting him is very often a guessing game, in which the odds are extremely stacked in MK's favor.

However, I do agree with M2k that for the vast majority of the cast, there is no hope even if MK is banned. Welcome to competative fighting. I don't even play other fighters, but to me this is an obvious fact. I think that waiting until next year to ban MK is a good idea. Even if there are options, it's better for the community on a whole if, on the level of play that 99% of the players play at, MK is a broken entity. Even if he's on the godly level which players such as M2k play at, he's not as broken, he's still broken in a real way to most of us, and it's still plausibly reliable to easily win with him. We're talking real players, with real skill, levels, at real tourneys, spending real money. Realistically, it's pretty dumb to say "Well, if you use these characters and play perfect, you could win." Guess what, if I was amazing, I could win with C.Falcon by perfect shielding almost everything, including physical attacks. From there, I could proceed to punish, and eventually K.O.. This is theoretically possible, but simply too unlikely to ever come into fruition to even consider. For most of us, even on highest level of play (right under m2k god level), this is NOT reality, and this game would be funner, more plausible, and dare I say more competative without him.

You don't think that's a little bold of you to state "you only lose to good MK's" when you haven't even been out of your area? Inui is a good player? Nah, no he's not. Why do you think so.. because he beats you with MK? Or because he beats Atomsk with MK? That doesn't make him a good player. He's a bad player using a broken character. And - further note, I am not amazing, I lose to bad MK's (Plank is a bad MK imo). When considering how BROKEN MK -ACTUALLY- is, you should NOT use the term 'good' as loosely as you are. Inui is not a good player, his performance with Marth/Snake should show you that much. I'm allowed to have an opinion, and in my opinion most Metaknights aren't actually good... they're just Metaknights.


I've heard you're a nice guy Pierce, apparently much more kind than I am, but don't give people so much credit rofl
 

BUM163

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
1,940
yikes lol. i just read the post of dissing from en ee oh lol. i say lets just wait and find out.... if mk is banned.... i can see alot rankings changing guranteed.
 

En.Ee.Oh

Smash Champion
Joined
Jul 31, 2003
Messages
2,527
LMAO @ bum typing my whole **** out


i'm NEO

and wtf @ me never meeting you ever wow
 

Tien2500

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Messages
1,432
Location
NY
yoshi is neutral. snake is debatable yup. DK would be if the tornado didnt **** him that badly.
Well then DK is not. Snake is still just a maybe. I'd also question Yoshi. I know that he can chain MK into some nice combos and Usmash *somewhat* limits Yoshi's approach but I think a good enough MK can avoid Yoshi's grab very effectively and can overwhelm Yoshi. Yoshi's shield also should be a liability here too.
 

BUM163

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2005
Messages
1,940
wassup neo lol. yea i heard about you from melee to brawl..... and i hear the skills been pass over like most pros. to me i be straight up the most honest here.

m2k says this to keep his best character alive obviously. we all know this, but i be the first to say this. regardless m2k does have points. we shouldn't give up on mk... not yet. if we do how else can we learn? to me i like to see if it's possible to tame the beast. i'm not afraid to lose to one... only cause i'm a fast learner and know how fighting games are.

now i also see the point of neo. people with low level skills with whatever character, touch mk and they easily compete with good players. should that be possible? no it shouldn't. a character shouldn't make a low class player to mid or mid high. still i say lets fight it out just for a bit more. the game just came out.
 

Turbo Ether

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
3,601
MK is fine imo. A fighting game tournament scene can live off a handful of tournament viable characters just fine. Tekken is fine with Nina, Brian and Steve. SF3TS is fine with Yun, Chun-li and Ken(kinda). Both games also have a few more characters that can do well, but aren't as good.

MK, Snake and DDD at the top, they kind of soft counter eachother. Wild cards like Falco, GW and Diddy can also eat. People need to get better at fighting MK.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom