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Toon Link Match-up Video and Critique Thread

-Tempest-

Smash Ace
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Feb 16, 2009
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEy6gfSklUs&feature=channel_page

Here's a friendly between Mr. Doom and myself. This guy is a beast Ike, and a brilliant player. I make a lot of mistakes, and would appreciate critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zW9ASVmtZpk&feature=channel_page

This one's a friendly between Fragbait and myself. I have trouble fighting his Falco, more than I used to, but I still manage to pull out the win. Critique is encouraged on this one as well.

And, before it comes up, I know I roll a lot... How do I stop that?
 

Remzi

formerly VaBengal
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Remziz4
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In Ashraf's section, the 2nd and 3rd matches under Link are actually against my Marth :p

been looking at some vids btw, good stuff guys
 

MJG

Smash Hero
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In Kokomo Circle Camping with Shadow1pj

MJG

Smash Hero
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In Kokomo Circle Camping with Shadow1pj
Sky blue is fine but the coding for my name didn't go through all the way

By the way later in the wario discussion if it is still open i would like to ask you some things ( i have them in my mac notepad somewhere) too tired for now though
 

Sosuke

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Ahh, thats embarrassing. =/
I'm really sorry about that.

You can ask me in a PM if you want.
Or the inquiry thread and I'll answerer whatever you want there.

Whichever works for you.
 

-Tempest-

Smash Ace
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Umm... I hate to bring this up, but to save Jerm the trouble of possibly being mistaken for me, the lower Jerm on the OP should be Tempest. Lol.
 

Sosuke

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Oh, I see why that happened.

I've been making a lot of mistakes lately. O_O
Sorry guys.


But I fixed it.
 

Pho

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Messages
384
Bah, so many matches I have to watch... I'll edit this when I get some sleep in me, but for now, Sasuke's first match against Wario is the only thing I watched.

Good choice in music by the way.

I was just thinking of an idea that just occurred to me while seeing all these videos. I'm sure there's other Toon Link players that wants to get a video out there, but doesn't have a recording device of some kind. If people are nice enough, maybe those who have that stuff could volunteer and try to help out the Toon Link boards.

I only asked because I myself need videos critiqued!
 

Sosuke

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I'll do it for you guys. I don't mind.
 

Pho

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
384
I uploaded a new video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9HsDrlX374A

It's against a Marth.
Your projectile play seems weird to me. You pull out bombs when the Marth was extremely close, which lead to punishments, although not all the bomb pulls were punished. Whenever you SH bomb to quick draw, you never bothered to turn around, except for one time. You have to make better use of your projectiles if you want to keep Marth at bay. Your swordplay is pretty decent though, but try not to fast fall your fair. There's so much lag when you land a fair that's still in motion.
 

-Tempest-

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I'd like to have the two vids I posted earlier critiqued if possible. They're under the second Jerm name toward the bottom of Singles in the OP.
 

TLMSheikant

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
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Puerto Rico
I dont quite get your idea of having only one thread dedicated for videos. But ill let u test it. If it doesnt result I resume my video critique thread. Things might get a little messy here...good luck.
 

Pho

Smash Journeyman
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Nov 29, 2008
Messages
384
It just occurred to me that if people want to get their videos critiqued by me, but don't have recording devices, either send it to me via Wii/brawl friend codes, or talk to Sasukebowser, and he can try to record your videos. Just an idea, since I'm doing most of them anyhow.

Edit: for the purpose of critiquing TrIkZ

Your projectile play is painful to watch. You only nair-> quick draw a couple of times, and sometimes you don't even do that. Your signal your zair with a air dodge every time, other than the two exceptions against G&W on FD. Your random ibombs against Olimar seems pointless to me, and there was one time you did it and it put you in a horrible position. Your swordplay consists of random smashes and a lot of bairs and nairs. One of the things that bothers me the most is that you never block. I don't remember about your first two matches, but against G&W, you put up your shield less than ten times. So many opportunities to either shield grab or short hop nair to punish.

So the number one thing to work on is to fix your defensive game. That needs more work than anything else.
 

Pho

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
384
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gck1A3JIrU
what not to do against Marth lol :( I get worked
but I have made some improvement in my TL game :)

Edit: only my 3rd tournament btw (jonhs)

Marth did it's job, and kept the pressure on and stayed close to you. With that in mind, you gotta get him away with retreating zairs, bomb pull-> quick draw, or even retreating short hop double arrow. All great things to use to keep them away. If you land a zair, try to follow it up with a grab. Make every punish worth while. When the Marth was in water in Delfino Plaza, you kinda were dair happy and missed. Just think it through before you dair. Just wait and think where he'll go the instant he gets out.
 

TrIkZ

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 8, 2009
Messages
52
It just occurred to me that if people want to get their videos critiqued by me, but don't have recording devices, either send it to me via Wii/brawl friend codes, or talk to Sasukebowser, and he can try to record your videos. Just an idea, since I'm doing most of them anyhow.

Edit: for the purpose of critiquing TrIkZ

Your projectile play is painful to watch. You only nair-> quick draw a couple of times, and sometimes you don't even do that. Your signal your zair with a air dodge every time, other than the two exceptions against G&W on FD. Your random ibombs against Olimar seems pointless to me, and there was one time you did it and it put you in a horrible position. Your swordplay consists of random smashes and a lot of bairs and nairs. One of the things that bothers me the most is that you never block. I don't remember about your first two matches, but against G&W, you put up your shield less than ten times. So many opportunities to either shield grab or short hop nair to punish.

So the number one thing to work on is to fix your defensive game. That needs more work than anything else.
Yeah G&W is fast so i like to dodge instead of shield.
Ill take the shield dodging and changing my projectile play in consideration. But i think the main thing is, is that i need more practice.
 

Pho

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
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I would have done yours earlier, but I like to do all the critiquing all in one go.
Your choice of aerials seems a bit odd. That was only in your first match against Wario, so maybe you were just experimenting. I really like your sword play. Very solid and you definitely racked on a lot of % when you could have. The amount of grabs missed does make me a little nervous though. Especially when you missed grabs when you were at 100+ percent. A good Fsmash from Wario, and you would be dead. Your projectile game is pretty good as well, and I can tell from the Diddy matches that you know the match up pretty well. I play a friend who uses Diddy too, and I pull a bomb out only when I can't get a banana. You used his weapon against him, which is great. I'll excuse the dair in the third match because you clearly had control of the game and I would have done it too(for the lulz). Keep it up, because I think you're either my skill level, or even better than me.

Edit: @Sasuke: Thanks for the critique, and the video. We'll see what everyone else says, and I'll try to incorporate ibombing into my game.
 

Sosuke

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You're vids are rendering and should be up in a few hours, Pho.


I watched a little bit, and your playstyle could REALLY benefit from iBombing. Check Fox's stickied thread for it.
Your airdodges got you punished a lot from what I saw, so this should help you a lot.


And the Dair was supposed to be a Fast-falled Dair, but my finger slipped, haha. ;_;
 

NeoCrono

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Charlotte, NC (where the bobcats play)

Marth did it's job, and kept the pressure on and stayed close to you. With that in mind, you gotta get him away with retreating zairs, bomb pull-> quick draw, or even retreating short hop double arrow. All great things to use to keep them away. If you land a zair, try to follow it up with a grab. Make every punish worth while. When the Marth was in water in Delfino Plaza, you kinda were dair happy and missed. Just think it through before you dair. Just wait and think where he'll go the instant he gets out.
Thanks, I have gotten better since then. Hopefully I can do better at Herb 2 though
 

Sosuke

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>_>



Meh, I updated the OP wit them. =P
 

Power of Slash

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Ok Pho, I'll give my opinion on the two matches.

Match 1 I felt went really well for you. I haven't seen any of your matches vs. other characters, Though I find it interesting the way that you handle the Marth matchup. Your spacing was really good, and you overall dominated with that nice ground game. I especially liked the Zair gimp first stock. Idk if it's your personal preference or not, but I found the lack of arrows to be kinda weird. I mean I can understand the lack of rangs(when you did use it, it was used proficiently), though if you have a specific reason for not using Arrows vs. Marth I'd like to hear it, give me some interesting insight on the matchup.

Match 2 is definately where alot of things went wrong. I mean, like I guess this is really moreso because this is a match you lost, but there were some weird choices here. It happens to all of us, but I noticed there were quite a few moments where you would get hit away and then when you're coming back you head directly towards your opponent. Well pretty much in general you had the tendency of various rolls toward the Marth, which is pretty bad the particular situation I'm referencing happens around the end of the game when you're recovering and you airdodge twice directly in the marth's face and eat a nasty Fsmash that led to your loss.

Overall, you have a Pretty gewd Tlink imo. Your spacing is really nice, you choose very efficient options for the situation at hand(especially in match 1, I picked up on this little thing you did in an instant. 1:42, you jump over the marths head and punish the spot dodge with the Nair. idk if this was intentional, but it was great), I can't really say increase on the projectiles or do this and that because I understand you might've avoided it for the matchup(I play Falcos way different than I normally play).

You already pointed it out, but... That recovery needs 'alot' of work. Uair isn't really the best option to be using at all. Throw a bomb out, follow it with a Rang throw, then recover accordingly. Stage hop Uair isn't really that good, it kinda just gets you hit bar certain stages. Sasuke already mentioned iBombing, it's an easy AT to learn and it would help tons with your already stellar sword play. I'm not sure if this is completely legit, but I saw a few dangerous rolls go on. Try different Out of Shield options. Bairs, Nairs, all that, I kinda saw mostly grabs and dodges/rolls in the shield. Actually I think it's fine to say avoid rolling period, and if you really need to get out of a situation retreating Bairs are there for you.

That's all from my perspective. It's kinda weird critiquing, I'm not really familiar with such a bomb/swordplay heavy playstyle.
 

Pho

Smash Journeyman
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Messages
384
Ok Pho, I'll give my opinion on the two matches.

Match 1 I felt went really well for you. I haven't seen any of your matches vs. other characters, Though I find it interesting the way that you handle the Marth matchup. Your spacing was really good, and you overall dominated with that nice ground game. I especially liked the Zair gimp first stock. Idk if it's your personal preference or not, but I found the lack of arrows to be kinda weird. I mean I can understand the lack of rangs(when you did use it, it was used proficiently), though if you have a specific reason for not using Arrows vs. Marth I'd like to hear it, give me some interesting insight on the matchup.

Match 2 is definately where alot of things went wrong. I mean, like I guess this is really moreso because this is a match you lost, but there were some weird choices here. It happens to all of us, but I noticed there were quite a few moments where you would get hit away and then when you're coming back you head directly towards your opponent. Well pretty much in general you had the tendency of various rolls toward the Marth, which is pretty bad the particular situation I'm referencing happens around the end of the game when you're recovering and you airdodge twice directly in the marth's face and eat a nasty Fsmash that led to your loss.

Overall, you have a Pretty gewd Tlink imo. Your spacing is really nice, you choose very efficient options for the situation at hand(especially in match 1, I picked up on this little thing you did in an instant. 1:42, you jump over the marths head and punish the spot dodge with the Nair. idk if this was intentional, but it was great), I can't really say increase on the projectiles or do this and that because I understand you might've avoided it for the matchup(I play Falcos way different than I normally play).

You already pointed it out, but... That recovery needs 'alot' of work. Uair isn't really the best option to be using at all. Throw a bomb out, follow it with a Rang throw, then recover accordingly. Stage hop Uair isn't really that good, it kinda just gets you hit bar certain stages. Sasuke already mentioned iBombing, it's an easy AT to learn and it would help tons with your already stellar sword play. I'm not sure if this is completely legit, but I saw a few dangerous rolls go on. Try different Out of Shield options. Bairs, Nairs, all that, I kinda saw mostly grabs and dodges/rolls in the shield. Actually I think it's fine to say avoid rolling period, and if you really need to get out of a situation retreating Bairs are there for you.

That's all from my perspective. It's kinda weird critiquing, I'm not really familiar with such a bomb/swordplay heavy playstyle.
Before I never used arrows. Ever. I didn't find them efficient enough in comparison to the 3 1/2 projectiles at our disposal. When I started to use them, it was other during a short hop bomb pull to quick draw. I felt like the short hop double arrow left us too open, but the retreating double arrow seems viable enough, I just haven't worked it into my play style yet. Then I stopped playing it for a week and played Melee for a bit with one of my friends.
I usally play Falco and short hop laser a lot, which sparked the idea of the SHFF arrow. You'll see it in my matches maybe once or twice, and I think it's a great technique, I'm just not sure how or when to use it yet.

Usually I Uair because since stages like Lylat and smashvile, and battlefield, you can poke people through the stage with Uair, and still be somewhat safe. But I forget sometimes that you can't do that in all stages, so it tends to be a bad habit. I don't know why I throw out some of those Uairs(I guess too much fail sauce in those burgers I ate that day).

If you notice in all my crappy attempts to recover onto the stage, I was in the middle of throwing my boomerang. I guess I just need to pull out my bomb and leave it at that, since doing both is keeping me too busy. My recovery process generally doesn't suck as bad as those two videos, but it's still pretty bad in my opinion.

I'm going to john, and say my mind was shut off during that second match. Normally I think things through in terms of projectile set up and zoning. Unfortunately, I easily get frustrated, so my brain shuts off. I didn't use any a lot of full hop projectile play, and I didn't choose my defensive options well.

And you can blame Vietgeek for my bomb playstyle. I remember watching a video of the the geek combo (zair->bomb throw->upsmash or nair) and being so amazed. This was WAY back when, but I still believe bombs are meant to help land big hits, so I always have a bomb in hand for those moments.
I do appreciate it all the comments though.
 

Sosuke

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haha, that was funny. xD

I like your playstyle. It's really fun.
The only thing I would recommend would be to quickdraw less if your opponents near you. Because they can still punish you after you hit them, since arrows have little stun.
 
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