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Toon Link Match-up Video and Critique Thread

MJG

MJG

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Twinkie said:
I'm most likely not gonna finish though, haha. Did you vs. TKD get recorded??
Click to expand...
No.

Was going to wait until LFs from Vengeance were uploaded but I don't think that is going to happen.

Phoenix Saga 3 (Michigan):


Singles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TileIG4_jis vs Tutu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQsmAQ6NI1E vs Mikey Lenetia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oSAv0eVu98M vs meekspeedy (WFs) Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MaBBnnIagU vs meekspeedy (WFs) Part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrAV_c5NmkM vs Kain (GFs) Part 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uf-fTT4a2d8 vs Kain (GFs) Part 2

Vengeance (Ohio):

Singles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-4ZRriW-p0 vs Kain

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5msZSsG7Dbc vs Ally (WFs)

Doubles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NO28cZuhGRI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFS5mDsmtnU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJLdRZFaqR8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iThze8VcUaY (LFs)

E4: Revenge (SoCal)

Singles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5ytgs2mbLY vs Havok

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85JbPrL1cdc vs Havok

Doubles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oT26uGS2blQ (lol)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RbARPBFenC0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyOnDBQ_Z64
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fxusq1n4gMY (WFs)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJgkyjpX7Rc (GFs)
 
S

.SirLink.

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 9, 2011
Messages
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That zss is good. I tend to grab my opponents when they think they can perfect shield my projectiles and approach me. Or I space a Nair to quickdraw. As an ex pit main I'm used to people approaching my spam. Also needs more Zair to Nair and adlib some Nair and bair combos.

Also don't think of your opponent as a brickwall. You can run through them and bair or just run through and camp, etc.

:phone:
 
KazeKun

KazeKun

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Germany
.SirLink. said:
That zss is good. I tend to grab my opponents when they think they can perfect shield my projectiles and approach me. Or I space a Nair to quickdraw. As an ex pit main I'm used to people approaching my spam. Also needs more Zair to Nair and adlib some Nair and bair combos.

Also don't think of your opponent as a brickwall. You can run through them and bair or just run through and camp, etc.

:phone:
Click to expand...
Trust me, if it would be so easy, I would win easily.

When you attack her shield, you will get uptilt which comes out on frame 4 + stupid range. And if i near her, she can use her 1 framer jab to interrupt all my attacks. My fastet attack comes out on frame 6 Jab. And if you try to spam, she will powershield everything. Also she will punish your startups at Spamming. To play here Keep Away should be very effective if you are good on it. Normally i´m not bad, so take a look at my other videos, then you will see that i use nair to quickdraw etc. but she is very annoying. Main Problems is Closerange + if you hit her shield you will get an uptilt or Jab.

I dont get it, how to play against her... its really annoying.
 
S

.SirLink.

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Joined
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Messages
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Lol all that talk of frames and stuff ._.
ibombing may help. bomb her shield then nair catch. pivot grab her. avoid her kill moves. Idk i go with the flow. I really want to face this zss now.
 
southpaw

southpaw

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oh tl's frame data...

zss is a tough char. dair in general isn't that useful in the mu vs zss since she can beat it with up-b. You can't hit zss's shield safely from close range at all. zss usually gains a % advantage at the start from suit pieces and there is no set strategy to counter it, cuz it always depends on how they play. When zss is walking towards you and poweshielding throw a bomb since no one ever powershields that and use that window to attack or get away. Not much else to say, you lost that match because you played impatiently and tried to force the kill after losing first stock.

Try to get her in the air because our bair is amazing vs her, bombs go through her lasers, she will use side-b to beat the start up of your projectiles. When camping zss, since she is fast you really need to pay attention to what she is doing and where do you think she will be vs the usual throw a bunch of projectiles and try to cover all options or just shoot stuff in their path because we can outrun them when they get close.
 
S

ShadowTl

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Joined
Jun 27, 2009
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If she beats you close-range, then just don't come there. It's hard to keep zss away, but you don't even try it. A lot of times you have the distance and then you just run in with an up smash, not spaced bair or even a boomerang. Try to keep a distance between yourself and zss, try to keep her away with spaced nairs and zairs.
 
archer.

archer.

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Excuse me while I turn into Mekos.

Just in general in doubles, if you're Toon Link then it's your job to NOT directly fight anyone if you don't have to. Play a keep away game, hold stocks, look for opportunities to follow up on your partner's actions (be that team combos, shield pressure, etc.), and keep an eye out for when your partner needs help.

That last part is crucial, so I'll give you a few early examples of when you could have done it. At about 0:30 your partner starts getting hit by Zelda's dtilt over and over. You were in perfect position to punish (literally right beside Zelda) and get your partner out of it, but you let it happen, focusing on Falco the entire time, and eventually your partner just dies, with no punish on Zelda from you at all. Not long after that, your partner is getting chaingrabbed by Falco. Again, you are in perfect position to stop this, but you let it happen and he takes way more damage than he should have. Looking out for situations like this will save your team from A LOT of potential damage, and set the other team up for taking a lot of damage themselves.

Lastly, if you need help with ANYTHING, don't be afraid to just tell your partner to come help you, and make sure your partner knows that they can ask you for help too.
 
southpaw

southpaw

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stopped watching when you let ur partner get dtilted over 5 times while standing next to zelda.

and thanks fino for the uploads
 
KT Kasrani

KT Kasrani

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yea dont be afraid to say help me or anything. also snake and tl is a great team. snake should be just GOING IN. i mean really goin in and u just sit back and play support and hold stocks.
 
MJG

MJG

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southpaw said:
stopped watching when you let ur partner get dtilted over 5 times while standing next to zelda.

and thanks fino for the uploads
Click to expand...
Pretty much this. Think of it this way though. When you are playing your opponent during singles, you see how your projectiles are positioned on the field and make your decisions from there. When you are doing this, you have to keep your eyes on your projectiles and your opponent. This is basically the same case with doubles. You need to be able to watch everything at all times and if you can do that, your partner won't be getting locked when they are right next to you.
 
Death Arcana

Death Arcana

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Ya that should be a priority
Helping your teammate from getting locked or chaingrabbed

But its not all on you quest your teammate should of yelled for help as well at least

:phone:
 
southpaw

southpaw

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always carry a bomb and land with zair to jc runaway throw bomb works wonders to keep away from them. only land near icies if you have a bomb in hand/a bomb bouncing on their shield or at least a boomerang returning. TL has to run and stay safe at all costs, its the only way he does well. sh retreating nair is a really good tool in the mu. I could write pages on this mu, but I won't.
u need to use boomerang way more in general

didnt watch u vs kirby but kirby is hard give up
 
MJG

MJG

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lol Atomsk is pretty good at that MU.

0:58 was a pretty good boomerang to prevent you from being gimped/taking more damage

I think that you might have been able to get a string going around 3:30 if you did "Airdodge to Zair" from the ledge. I am not too sure since the stars might have stopped you though.

Overall, I felt like you did a good job of playing keep away/mixing it up during that match. Just gotta out play him if you plan on beating him when you meet him again in bracket.
 
WindMajor

WindMajor

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I've seen the set twice and I can't really find anything to pick apart. You played the set solidly.
 
N

NH Cody

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You rushed the kill sometimes vs mr r. Usmashing at 89% is generally a bad idea (unless your opponent is jigglypuff). Last stock first match you tried usmashing him like twice in a row at 105% and 110% and I don't think it would have even killed. too early/too random of a time to approach

You were airdodging a lot too... around 3:34:01 you airdodged when you didn't have a bomb and were above him. He hit you repeatedly and basically you died because of it. There were a few times when you could have zaired but you just airdodged into the ground instead and he hit you. At the ledge you did the same thing like 20 times...airdodging into his aerials or his grab. A couple times you tried jumping from the ledge and doing aerials and he uaired you . You have to surprise him somehow (maybe try bomb planking first since this works well vs marth). so...mix it up more at the ledge. Match 1 there was a time when you did three rolls in a row and he ended up DBing you...marth can almost always punish rolling with DB/fair/pivot grab/retreating nair etc.

At the end of match 2 you ran off the edge to try and hit him and ended up dying because of it. You shouldn't challenge marth offstage...be more careful when recovering, too, since he gimped/killed you a lot when you were offstage. Try iBomb > run away cross-up boomerang when he's chasing you in the air. It's super effective vs marth. Hope this helps.

 
southpaw

southpaw

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@mjg
vs Mr R
watch spacing while getting off the ledge. jump ad's are easily punished when marth is at
fsmash spacing away from the ledge jump fairing all day. either wait for him to get impatient and stand closer to the ledge so you can try to cross-up a landing or wait for the platform for an extra option.

Lost game1 and mainly got dmg from trying to get back to the stage solely. which i think can be
potentially impossible, but in general ridiculously hard. the trap that got u baired is a dumb
50/50 where u try to go high you get baired go low and edge-guarded anyways. oh game2 he does it
again and u ad low so he punishes with counter. there you go.

game3 stock1 u did a good job getting off the ledge but then u had nowhere to go and he beat ur just stand and shield option, windmill didnt help.

How you lost for mr R is how I don't see this mu is even, and is what I don't know wut to do against either.
I feel like once marth grabs the edge from tl and you have to recover to the ledge/stage its over. his ledge drop aerials outrange our sweet spot, hes got bair to beat us going over, and counter when we go low. Else I feel like you played the mu well, getting under marths fairs and punishing with bairs, great mixups, but he punished a lot of ur ad's cuz ur afraid of his fair or uair and kept u trapped from there on.

vs ally
I'm sorry to me it looks like ally is just playing super aggro blindly dashing in over and over again because he knows he can vs trying to get around ur projectiles. I remember watching him do it with snake too. Its like he knows in the long run he will still win even tho he takes all this dmg from projectiles.
 
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