Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
Why would it be even?
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Toon Link Matchup Rediscussion #7: King Dedede
- Thread starter TLMSheikant
- Start date
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
Zair itself can't win us this match up believe it or not DDD has stuff to get by it.
MJG
Smash Hero
Earlier you believed that zair outranged.DDD and now u don't think its effective? *confusion*. Anyways...I think that it is even as well or at least 55:45 DDD. We should get some more input from DDD users and wrap this thing up.
Mota
"The snake, knowing itself, strikes swiftly"
DDD Ftilt does outrange Zair, but TL shouldn't be charging in with zair without first throwing a projectile to force a dodge or shield.
Zair still has it's uses, just don't be predictable.
Zair still has it's uses, just don't be predictable.
I havnt played a DDD in tournament since january, and that was pools, but in all my friendlies n such, it doesnt feel like they have much over us. Specially if we just camp. Only problem we have in the match up is killing, and maybe nair usage, but we can help that with cross ups.
fezzmaster
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2007
- Messages
- 57
we can win this match up. here is why i think this, i never played against a DDD and in the second round my friend said to me play campy and then i almost won and it was agains co18. heres the videos.
oh and is it possible to move the videos from here to the critique board?? because that would be sweet and easier then posting twice.
what not to do.(plz keep in mind i had no idea what to do.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s55KCguaAkE
what to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGiWghZQyRc
oh and is it possible to move the videos from here to the critique board?? because that would be sweet and easier then posting twice.
what not to do.(plz keep in mind i had no idea what to do.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s55KCguaAkE
what to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGiWghZQyRc
- Joined
- Mar 15, 2008
- Messages
- 10,050
DDD has the advantage in close range, with this chaingrab, and his awesome attacks. From long range, it's even, or slightly in TL's favor.
Z-air could just be shielded and end up in another chaingrab, so it's not a good idea at all. Being close to DDD is NOT a good idea ever. His Waddle-dees are slow and can be worked around. Proper spamming should keep DDD away. When he's off the ledge, TL has the advantage, since DDD's recovery is about as predictable as ours.
Z-air could just be shielded and end up in another chaingrab, so it's not a good idea at all. Being close to DDD is NOT a good idea ever. His Waddle-dees are slow and can be worked around. Proper spamming should keep DDD away. When he's off the ledge, TL has the advantage, since DDD's recovery is about as predictable as ours.
You use zair to keep the DDD out of your space. If you space it correctly, they cant do much, and your in their head. they dont know when your gonna follow up after one of those zairs. So zair with a bomb in hand in case you mis space or w/e, and after zair, you hve the option to throw the bomb to nair. get ***** DDD.. its a wrap =]
MJG
Smash Hero
I actually do this a lot. Good stuff
Hes easy to read once hes in the air and he will take damage from all of the projectiles when he is trying to get back on stage.
Edit: I just watched your vids Fezz and impressed.
Co18 also told me in the AiB chat that he sucks against toonlinks..maybe just johns ^_^. Good comeback. Keep it up
Dojo
Smash Champion
Holding a bomb...I like to dash back after my zair and pivot throw a boomerang. then throw the bomb and follow with a nair.
That combination helps a lot if the d3 is ftilt happy on your projectiles.
-santi
That combination helps a lot if the d3 is ftilt happy on your projectiles.
-santi
fezzmaster
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2007
- Messages
- 57
I have only fought against CO18 so i dont know how other DDDs play but since hes one of the best i can safely say that Zair is a good option but use it when you have some room to fall backwards.
dont spam anything in this match up. unless they panic, then you can spam it will put a lot of pressure on them. CO18 was shaking his head the whole match which let me know what to do. i think this match up is in our favor or its equal.
55 to 45 TL
dont spam anything in this match up. unless they panic, then you can spam it will put a lot of pressure on them. CO18 was shaking his head the whole match which let me know what to do. i think this match up is in our favor or its equal.
55 to 45 TL
A~Kid/ToonethLinkage
Wants His Own Custom Title
I think its even but I only faced TLMSheikants DDD on Wi-Fi xD He couldn't chaingrab me. I think its even anyways. JUST CAMP HIM TO HELL! I like the DDD and Snake matchups. They're fun. =)
fezzmaster
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2007
- Messages
- 57
i played the best DDD in FL and he tried and fail a bunch of times, so im pretty sure that its in our favor. its hard to believe because its DDD but we can take him im sticking with at least 55-45 TL
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Lol wifi...
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
I said it can outrange him but it cant hold him off for a full game and they can find ways around it
MJG
Smash Hero
How does Zair 'outrange' DDD's F tilt since his F tilt has more 'range' than our Zair? Help me to understand please. Just wondering..
Can't we just say its 55:45 DDD and move on to the next match up?
Can't we just say its 55:45 DDD and move on to the next match up?
Chip.
you know what to do
It's even. 50-50.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Summary FINALLY
Even 50:50
Best Stage to Fight DDD on:
Worst Stage to Fight DDD on:
Summary:
King Dedede is a character that can make each and everyone of your mistakes hurt a lot. His insane grab range and chain grab make him a really big threat upclose. He is also very heavy so dont be surprised if the DDD lives up to 150% or more. While he kills you with uptilt at around the 100s. His back air can gimp Toon Link, always make sure to DI it up so that you dont get gimped. His recovery also covers a lot of distance but it is rather...predictable if he is forced to use his upB. Toon Link can somewhat challenge DDD's grab range with his zair but i wouldnt recommend overusing it since that can mean a grab opportunity for the DDD if he expects it. His forward tilt can also make it a little tough to use zair effectively at times thanks to its range.
Toon Link isnt done for on the matchup though. King Dedede is a very big target making him susceptible to our normal combos and VERY susceptible to our camping game. Bombs are very useful as always as well as boomerang. Short hop double arrow also works surprisingly well in this matchup. Make sure to grab the shield approach happy DDDs too! When going for the kill, get DDD offstage and force him to use his upB by harassing his second jumps with ur proyectiles. When he does upB, read what hes going to do and usmash/fsmash.
Norfair, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pirate Ship (if legal) and Smashville are all very good places to take DDD to. Avoid Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon and Rainbow Cruise.
TL;DR: Mix up your recovery, camp him, space your aerials properly, avoid his grab game,
dont recklessly try to kill since u will eat a chain grab.
Even 50:50
Best Stage to Fight DDD on:
Worst Stage to Fight DDD on:
Summary:
King Dedede is a character that can make each and everyone of your mistakes hurt a lot. His insane grab range and chain grab make him a really big threat upclose. He is also very heavy so dont be surprised if the DDD lives up to 150% or more. While he kills you with uptilt at around the 100s. His back air can gimp Toon Link, always make sure to DI it up so that you dont get gimped. His recovery also covers a lot of distance but it is rather...predictable if he is forced to use his upB. Toon Link can somewhat challenge DDD's grab range with his zair but i wouldnt recommend overusing it since that can mean a grab opportunity for the DDD if he expects it. His forward tilt can also make it a little tough to use zair effectively at times thanks to its range.
Toon Link isnt done for on the matchup though. King Dedede is a very big target making him susceptible to our normal combos and VERY susceptible to our camping game. Bombs are very useful as always as well as boomerang. Short hop double arrow also works surprisingly well in this matchup. Make sure to grab the shield approach happy DDDs too! When going for the kill, get DDD offstage and force him to use his upB by harassing his second jumps with ur proyectiles. When he does upB, read what hes going to do and usmash/fsmash.
Norfair, Final Destination, Battlefield, Pirate Ship (if legal) and Smashville are all very good places to take DDD to. Avoid Halberd, Delfino Plaza
, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon and Rainbow Cruise.TL;DR: Mix up your recovery, camp him, space your aerials properly, avoid his grab game,
dont recklessly try to kill since u will eat a chain grab.
MJG
Smash Hero
Yay!
I just got done reading the Kirby discussion and im gonna read this one and head to bed >.>
I just got done reading the Kirby discussion and im gonna read this one and head to bed >.>
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
zair can out range most of his attacks except f tilt, which isn't as convenient as zair is for us, plus f tilt is kinda laggy for him so even though his f tilt has more range zair is quicker and not outclassed by much at all. zair abuse wpu;d win out f tilt abuse is what i mean here. but that doesn't really make this an even match up for us. because like u said he can f tilt and throw waddle dees, so zair can't hold him off for a full game or set. thats why i think its more of a 60-40 type of match up.
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Pfft Jerm u havent even played a decent DDD i think. DDD has a fair share of advantages in the matchup. If it werent for our spacing/camping game we'd be toast. And to whoever said waddles can be a pain: ur not camping hard enought rofl.
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
why is this not 60-40? lol
Lobos
Smash Master
But there is only a handful of DDDs that can handle a high level TL player
QUIVO
Smash Master
Zair can be good, but you have to mix it up a lot. D3 can just dash towards you, powershield zair and incoming projectiles, and then grab until he gets you off. If he reads well, he can gimp you.. so mixing up how you react after being thrown off stage is very important.
I use a lot of bombs in this matchup. It sets up pretty safe kills if you read right. Up B can be pretty good because D3's love to spotdodge and roll.
Doing nairs, and bairs while crossing over them is alright.. but D3 can turn around so quick and grab you afterwards. I just camp hard in this matchup.
I use a lot of bombs in this matchup. It sets up pretty safe kills if you read right. Up B can be pretty good because D3's love to spotdodge and roll.
Doing nairs, and bairs while crossing over them is alright.. but D3 can turn around so quick and grab you afterwards. I just camp hard in this matchup.
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
wow, he just said what we all have been arguing over. lol nice job quivo
QUIVO
Smash Master
Oh sorry, I didn't mean to repeat anything. I just quickly skimmed through the thread and mostly saw Jerm saying how zair is our greatest tool in the matchup.
Ashraf23
Smash Apprentice
oh no i wasnt be sarcastic or anything lol, nice job
QUIVO
Smash Master
Oh, cool. Thanks : )
I thought I'd throw in my two cents. The best D3 i personally fought was Vex. He knew exactly what to do vs TL after playing Soup a bunch online. Other than him, I haven't played that many good d3's.
I thought I'd throw in my two cents. The best D3 i personally fought was Vex. He knew exactly what to do vs TL after playing Soup a bunch online. Other than him, I haven't played that many good d3's.
Chip.
you know what to do
I strongly feel this match-up is even and that in no way does DDD have an advantage unless it's a gay counterpick.
Hyro
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2008
- Messages
- 1,386
I feel like we have the advantage.
I don't often hear of top toons losing to D3's but I do hear of some top D3's losing to TL.
Chip beat CO18
Jash beats Atomsk
Even Fezz beat CO18 and he's not even a top toon.
I don't get too impressed when I hear of tl's beating d3's...such a big target, pretty predictable gimping (with ff'ed bairs), easy to spam, easy to space. I feel like it's an easy form of IC's. As long as we don't get grabbed (and even if we do, it's not the end of the world), we're all good. If we know what to expect they can't kill us. And when we get them offstage, it's simple to rackup damage by getting rid of their jumps then punishing their up Bs.
I don't often hear of top toons losing to D3's but I do hear of some top D3's losing to TL.
Chip beat CO18
Jash beats Atomsk
Even Fezz beat CO18 and he's not even a top toon.
I don't get too impressed when I hear of tl's beating d3's...such a big target, pretty predictable gimping (with ff'ed bairs), easy to spam, easy to space. I feel like it's an easy form of IC's. As long as we don't get grabbed (and even if we do, it's not the end of the world), we're all good. If we know what to expect they can't kill us. And when we get them offstage, it's simple to rackup damage by getting rid of their jumps then punishing their up Bs.
demonictoonlink
Smash Master
You guys are way underestimating him...He kills us at around 100 and we kill him at around 200...
TLMSheikant
Smash Master
Its even. On one side we can spam him to oblivion all day but once he does find an opening it's painful.