Transcript of the SBR "MK Podcast" (Sonic section)//Steak Break Room:Sonic Discussion

[Napilopez]

Thing about Bair is that its disjointed, but only for like a tiny instant. Like as sonics leg arcs around his body, only at the tip of extension of his kick is it the most disjointed. Uair gives you a smaller hurtbox and decent range, so its make you quite hard to grab. but yea, mispacing will cost you, lolz. Sometimes I underestimate the distance of an air release after being grabbed out of UpB and, am killed because of that -_-

 

[Dark Sonic]

Idea:

spring from the edge, float in towards stage> float the opposite direction when opponent tries to follow/ get in front of your fall trajectory?

It's far more effective with characters like Wario and Yoshi/other aerial characters. But it still works to an extent with Sonic.

And if they try to ground camp, D-air's stall time (just above their attack height) can be enough to make most moves miss while hitting them in their cooldown time.

What about homming attack (hit the stage)->spinshot?
Or wall jump->spinshot.

I haven't tried them yet, but I think they might work.

 

[infomon]

What about homming attack (hit the stage)->spinshot?
Or wall jump->spinshot.

I haven't tried them yet, but I think they might work.

You've never tried these because you'll almost never be in a position to use them.

If you haven't used your 2nd jump but are low enough to hit the stage with homing attack, then you're probably going to fall to your doom if the HA doesn't lock-on to your opponent. Which is under their control.

And when would you ever be in a position to wall-jump before using your 2nd jump? Only on Yoshi's Island (which is awesome), or some other sporadic situations like if you just tech'd a would-be stage-spike lol.

 

[Tenki]

You've never tried these because you'll almost never be in a position to use them.

If you haven't used your 2nd jump but are low enough to hit the stage with homing attack, then you're probably going to fall to your doom if the HA doesn't lock-on to your opponent. Which is under their control.

And when would you ever be in a position to wall-jump before using your 2nd jump? Only on Yoshi's Island (which is awesome), or some other sporadic situations like if you just tech'd a would-be stage-spike lol.

@second one, right lol
@first one, Not necessarily.

HA can hit the stage sideways, and "Homing Stall" 's bounce (for recovery/gtfo invincibility frames purposes) isn't really reliant on whether or not an opponent is in range.

 

[infomon]

Mokay, fair enough.

 

[Dark Sonic]

You've never tried these because you'll almost never be in a position to use them.

If you haven't used your 2nd jump but are low enough to hit the stage with homing attack, then you're probably going to fall to your doom if the HA doesn't lock-on to your opponent. Which is under their control.

And when would you ever be in a position to wall-jump before using your 2nd jump? Only on Yoshi's Island (which is awesome), or some other sporadic situations like if you just tech'd a would-be stage-spike lol.

I'm talking about when you're hanging from the ledge. This is getting back on the stage from the ledge.

I do homming attacks from the ledge on FD all the time. I hit the stage, and then jump over my edgeguarding opponent (from about stage height actually). I've just never tried spinshotting from that position.

And you can wall jump directly from hanging on the ledge without using your second jump by double tapping back on the control stick really fast. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvQsgQyO1zg
1:49 (I know it's a melee vid, but it works in brawl too).

 

[infomon]

Ah, yes that makes sense about the homing attack then. Ledgedrop > HA (bounce under the lip) > spinshot.

On FD the HA might even give you your 2nd jump back, if it bounces near the surface of the stage.

As for the instant-wall-jump, I'm pretty sure it isn't really instant, ie. it uses your 2nd jump, so you can't spinshot after. I'd love to be wrong about that, though!

 

[SamuraiPanda]

It took awhile to read everything that was posted, and because they were so long I don't have time to respond to each individual one. But rest assured that everything you guys said here, I already knew. Nothing posted in this thread thus far has been new to me (except Infzy's post on how to beat G&W's dtilt). Sonic has a crapton of options available to him (although many of them can be beaten by only one or two strategies), and his saving grace for not only his approach but his entire game, are his grabs. His ability to punish even the slightest lag with a running grab is awesome, and he has some interesting options out of his throws, too. However, he is mostly limited by the player who uses him. Sonic has options for "mindgames," but if your opponent plays smarter than you, then you'll lose. Sonic's reliance on reading/tricking his opponent are both the strongest and the weakest part of his game.

Many people here seem to think the SBR is uneducated when it comes to Sonic. That isn't true. The WCD isn't mandatory, many people don't bother posting in it when they don't feel like it. Someone knowledgeable like myself could've done a great writeup on Sonic, but I simply don't have that sort of time on my hands anymore. And the podcast was done with only a few members of the podcast. One of which was Overswarm, who said most of the things (like the dtilt spam thing, as well as bringing up Anther's young Sonic over and over again), both in the WCD and in the podcast, that many of you are angry about. Those were his personal views. Not the SBR's.

Now, to deal with Memphis...

SP, i respect you as a person, but you smash knowledge is limited. whether you like it or not, all you are is a mod with privileges.

SMYN got you only so far dude. you're lucky to be apart of the project, but that is it.
you guys won't even give anyone a chance to speak and this is proof. WE HAVE ****ING FACTS AND YOU ARE IGNORING THEM.

everyone knows it, whether kinser or HC back me. they know.
just because you have specialty around SWF doesn't mean you can be a dictator.

I'm tired of dealing with you. I truly am. You keep talking, but you don't back it up. Luckily, many of your peers here decided to try and spread more knowledge about Sonic in a more civil and calm manner, which got me to read everything they posted (althouehd I already knew much of it). Get your head out of your *** for a second and look at things from my perspective. I'm a moderator that deals with all of the Brawl boards. That includes 37 individual character boards, too. I've read through each and every one of them. Their stickies, their posts, everything. So you insinuating that I don't understand Smash is not only insulting, but its a blatant lie. I know more about this game then you ever could. And that is a fact. I am not a dictator, nor am I being "unfair." It is YOU who is being unfair to ME. Do you think your requests are unique? There are 36 other boards, and their communities, that feel their character is underrated/misrepresented in some way. Why are you any more special than they are? Here is a hint: you aren't.


Thanks to those who decided to be civil in this conversation. Keep it up, and make people respect the Sonic boards again. It will take time, due to the damage that has already been done, but it'll be worth it in the end.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

I don't agree with the SBR summary. I could see some truth to it though.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Did you watch the video?
Although that might have changed in brawl.

edit: After further testing, I can't seem to do it. But what I can do (which is really interesting btw) is homming attack towards the little lip thing on FD, and I will bounce under the stage. From there you can wall jump, and from that you can second jump (or spinshot).

Neat.

edit: edit: This post was at Infzy.

How do you send replays to people?

 

[Tenki]

It took awhile to read everything that was posted, and because they were so long I don't have time to respond to each individual one. But rest assured that everything you guys said here, I already knew. Nothing posted in this thread thus far has been new to me (except Infzy's post on how to beat G&W's dtilt). Sonic has a crapton of options available to him (although many of them can be beaten by only one or two strategies), and his saving grace for not only his approach but his entire game, are his grabs. His ability to punish even the slightest lag with a running grab is awesome, and he has some interesting options out of his throws, too. However, he is mostly limited by the player who uses him. Sonic has options for "mindgames," but if your opponent plays smarter than you, then you'll lose. Sonic's reliance on reading/tricking his opponent are both the strongest and the weakest part of his game.

That's why alot of us like to use Sonic. It's common lore and knowledge that player skill > character matchups/tier position etcetc, but as long as Sonic's tools push the game upon the players rather than characters (eg supposed "unbreakable walls of attacks" because of Sonic's priority), then he's "viable" or "good" (..??), or whatever-other-adjective-not-synonymous-with-"garbage" they can use.

Many people here seem to think the SBR is uneducated when it comes to Sonic. That isn't true. The WCD isn't mandatory, many people don't bother posting in it when they don't feel like it. Someone knowledgeable like myself could've done a great writeup on Sonic, but I simply don't have that sort of time on my hands anymore. And the podcast was done with only a few members of the podcast. One of which was Overswarm, who said most of the things (like the dtilt spam thing, as well as bringing up Anther's young Sonic over and over again), both in the WCD and in the podcast, that many of you are angry about. Those were his personal views. Not the SBR's.

The vocal few will almost always make the image of the whole.
It's true of anything, whether people arguing for/against a religion, rabid fanboys defending a character, or someone creating an image for a group of intelligent and knowledgable players.

I personally don't doubt your knowledge on Sonic, since anyone who can trudge through our stickies (or just try the things mentioned therein) should be able to comprehend the character's abilities. The extent of their use can really only be seen if tried in application - well, up until we get super-extensive frame data.

edit:

Thanks to those who decided to be civil in this conversation. Keep it up, and make people respect the Sonic boards again. It will take time, due to the damage that has already been done, but it'll be worth it in the end.

?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Lol, good point Tenki.

Also, the main reason I know most of this stuff with Sonic is because I attempted to pick him up at one point in time so I've personally tried everything here. I still think he's fun as hell, but he's just not for me.

 

[Tenki]

revisiting

However, he is mostly limited by the player who uses him. Sonic has options for "mindgames," but if your opponent plays smarter than you, then you'll lose. Sonic's reliance on reading/tricking his opponent are both the strongest and the weakest part of his game.

Come to think about it, that's what skews our matchup discussions so much.

Either a "good player" who uses Sonic will come in and, due to his experience being able to beat/outplay a certain matchup, claim the matchup is even/in Sonic's favor, or we discard all of that and put a matchup in their favor.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Although that might have changed in brawl.

edit: After further testing, I can't seem to do it. But what I can do (which is really interesting btw) is homming attack towards the little lip thing on FD, and I will bounce under the lip and hug the wall. From there you can wall jump, and from that you can second jump (or spinshot). I have a replay of it.

Neat.

edit: edit: This post was at Infzy.

How do you send replays to people?

Quoting myself so Infzy doesn't miss my post.

And it's interesting to note that it's easier to do HA->spinshot if the opponent is within lock-on range of your HA. You bounce higher up and further out after the HA, so you've got more leniency on your spinshot.

Come to think about it, that's what skews our matchup discussions so much.

Either a "good player" who uses Sonic will come in and, due to his experience being able to beat/outplay a certain matchup, claim the matchup is even/in Sonic's favor, or we discard all of that and put a matchup in their favor.

Now I know what Falcon players feel like (in melee).

But without the amazing combos or craptastic recovery.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Thankyou for doing this Tenki ^^ I never got round to listening to the whole podcast

I want to try and contribute as much as I can but I don't seriously main Sonic...so yea :/ I'll do my best

SP, I understand your a busy person but perhaps now would be an excellent time for you to write up your views on Sonic? I'd be interested on your views on him

 

[Dark Sonic]

SP, I understand your a busy person but perhaps now would be an excellent time for you to write up your views on Sonic? I'd be interested on your views on him

If he does, we have to promise that there will be absolutely zero flaming.

Just a civil discussion about a low tier character.

Agreed Sonic boards?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Yea I'm in favour of that completely. I'm not up for flaming - I will question things I might not agree on but it's against my policy to shout at someone without good reason

 

[M15t3R E]

SP knows how to defend himself.
I would advise Memphischains and everyone else to avoid starting arguments with mods from now on.

 

[Chis]

Too late Mister E. I'll edit whn I read the first post....

Alot of that isn't true. Oh well...

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Too late Mister E. I'll edit whn I read the first post....

Alot of that isn't true. Oh well...

Wait, what?

It's comments like this that make it impossibile for me to understand Sonic, even after an extensive discussion like this one.

Is there a thread where you guys summarize your character in the most up-to-date understanding of his properties and playstyles? A Sonic version of what a character of the week synopsis of him would look like?

 

[da K.I.D.]

personally i would be soooooooooooo incredibly happy and i would never say anything bad about mods again if you (SP) took that first paragraph of the post that you made explaining sonic, and put that where the weekly discussion synopsis of sonic is, because its much much more accurate and indicative of the character.

i also respect the fact the instead of just stating "hey i already know everything you are saying" which isnt very believeable to be honest, you said i do know all that stuff but i really didnt know a few of the off hand facts that you guys said.

 

[darkNES386]

Wait, what?

It's comments like this that make it impossibile for me to understand Sonic, even after an extensive discussion like this one.

Is there a thread where you guys summarize your character in the most up-to-date understanding of his properties and playstyles? A Sonic version of what a character of the week synopsis of him would look like?

Any of our stickies have lots of good information. The problem is that to make Sonic "good" there are many different approaches the Sonic boards are moving in. Some people feel it's most important to understand the character matchups, others are focusing on specific counters for various popular strategies other characters use.

Tenki has a sticky on the spin specials which is quite comprehensive on their properties. Our video section (Steak Cinemas) attempts to show how Sonic is currently being played.

The common ground we all agree on... even SBR is that Sonic has a strong human component to his skill.

 

[Napilopez]

Sonic has a crapton of options available to him (although many of them can be beaten by only one or two strategies), and his saving grace for not only his approach but his entire game, are his grabs. His ability to punish even the slightest lag with a running grab is awesome, and he has some interesting options out of his throws, too. However, he is mostly limited by the player who uses him. Sonic has options for "mindgames," but if your opponent plays smarter than you, then you'll lose. Sonic's reliance on reading/tricking his opponent are both the strongest and the weakest part of his game.

OMG OMG THIS.

This is like, one of the best Sonic descriptions I've ever seen. Had this paragraph alone been in the WCD I betcha we woulda all mostly been happy.

EDIT:

Ahh, I'm too slow, I see KID already expressed my sentiments! Seriously, that rightup is great. The last line especially. And what dNES said too. There is a strong human component to his skill, which is why I think he's only average as a character, but is still viable to perform well in competitive play, as he has been. You just actually have to be better than your opponent.

 

[Espy Rose]

I'm not trying to start anything or whatnot. Everyone here is being civil about the issue (at least, mostly everyone), and it feels good, but:

And the podcast was done with only a few members of the podcast. One of which was Overswarm, who said most of the things (like the dtilt spam thing, as well as bringing up Anther's young Sonic over and over again), both in the WCD and in the podcast, that many of you are angry about. Those were his personal views. Not the SBR's.

So was the WCD comprised of people who didn't really know the character?
You said you didn't have the time, so you weren't responsible for what we were given.

Does anyone else in the SBR have any knowledge of Sonic that gets near the level of yours?
It'll irritate me if I find that the WCD was made using members of the SBR that have no real experience or understanding of Sonic's mechanics.

Also, what KID said, and I'd love to see your steak] take on Sonic as a character. And I don't flame irresponsibly. I might spam a little, but I know when and when not to do so.

I initially don't care about this issue too much (nor the tier issue too much), but it's when the SBR starts to disrespect Sonic's mechanics (mostly through the WCD, and only pertaining to a few individual members) is when it starts to become my concern.

Finally, what Napz said.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Copy paste that description in the WCD and we have an epic win on our hands.

And does anybody want to play against me. I'm pretty much board out of my mind right now.

 

[Tenki]

The common ground we all agree on... even SBR is that Sonic has a strong human component to his skill.

One of which was Overswarm, who said most of the things (like the dtilt spam thing, as well as bringing up Anther's young Sonic over and over again), both in the WCD and in the podcast, that many of you are angry about. Those were his personal views. Not the SBR's.

The vocal few will almost always make the image of the whole.

lol in the same sense, don't project SamulaiPrada's views on the rest of the SBR.

Just because one member might see it doesn't necessarily mean the rest of them hold the same view.

-------------------------

@Everyone else//pertaining to the first post:
The part I highlighted in yellow were things that I noticed were just echoed in the actual WCD.
-------------------------
I had something else to say but I forgot :3

 

[da K.I.D.]

you were going to say that you agree with everything i said before

 

[memphischains]

Now, to deal with Memphis...


I'm tired of dealing with you. I truly am. You keep talking, but you don't back it up. Luckily, many of your peers here decided to try and spread more knowledge about Sonic in a more civil and calm manner, which got me to read everything they posted (althouehd I already knew much of it). Get your head out of your *** for a second and look at things from my perspective. I'm a moderator that deals with all of the Brawl boards. That includes 37 individual character boards, too. I've read through each and every one of them. Their stickies, their posts, everything. So you insinuating that I don't understand Smash is not only insulting, but its a blatant lie. I know more about this game then you ever could. And that is a fact. I am not a dictator, nor am I being "unfair." It is YOU who is being unfair to ME. Do you think your requests are unique? There are 36 other boards, and their communities, that feel their character is underrated/misrepresented in some way. Why are you any more special than they are? Here is a hint: you aren't.


Thanks to those who decided to be civil in this conversation. Keep it up, and make people respect the Sonic boards again. It will take time, due to the damage that has already been done, but it'll be worth it in the end.

you never tried to listen to me, rather just "deal" with me by closing threads, infractions, and ignoring me. tenki already got to the other stuff i was going to say.

id rather take this into a private conversation to go on any further, so i don't end up getting a stupid spam infraction, flaming or the like, because every other time i have tried to talk to you guys thats what i get.

no johns panda, give us a chance for a legitimate argument.

i never said i was special, i never said i was important.
it was YOU that just said YOU where important and special.

i have already said what i needed to say as far as arguments goes, talk to me in private

 

[ShadowLink84]

Hmm I was hoping Sp wouldn't come in primarily because f the whole Mc vs SP thing which lead to the their crap fest in a number of pages back.

SP already knows alot abut Sonic, he cannot be called ignorant of it. I mean ****, if he's arguing with MC lot then he most likely came t the boards and read upon things to shut MC up. What its true.

Anyway the SBR isn't completely wrong in what they said. When they said he desn't have alot of options, they mean he doesn't have any truly god options for bad situations.

yes they did get sme things wrng and I persnally feel that Sonic's mind game potential should be taken into account because he excels at it beyond most, if not all, the characters in the game.

I do think the Sonic boards need to relax a bit and think before they speak.
I am starting t see why people often have disdain for the Sonic character boards.

 

[Kinzer]

They can't comprehend the power of the Steak, so they turn us down?

Anyway if you DID read everything Panda, I had a question about stickies a little bit back in this thread! XD

Owell, it's no big deal, Sonic is fly like that, being chill even in a tight situation.

 

[Jim Morrison]

This is a pretty good write-up of Sonic which should be indeed a good one for WCD, but this is our new WCD.

 

[ROOOOY!]

I can't believe I missed this party.

Ehh, Samurai Panda's not going to do a write up on a character he doesn't care about lol, he's stated that much multiple times in over threads.

And I can sympathize with all sides on this thread. Sonic mains have never been listened to, even before all this steak nonsense, we were discredited on anything we've said simply because of the character we main.

I myself am disappointed on the views presented by the SBR about Sonic in general, because it's mostly just vague generalities and they are often provably wrong. Yes, Sonic is a below average character. Yes, Sonic has problems. Advertising random crap and registering it as fact to the community helps no one (not directed at anybody in particular, as many people as the statement could be directed at).

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Ehh, Samurai Panda's not going to do a write up on a character he doesn't care about lol, he's stated that much multiple times in over threads.

Funny how he JUST did one that probably would have prevented the flaming spam of a WCD. ^_^


Hey Panda. If you're still reading this how's Anther's Sonic coming along? He had a question about getting Snake gimped. I forgot to mention that since Uair is disjointed you can often shield poke THROUGH the stage on the way up as well as bair them, using upB reversal if necessary. Also it's typically, "safe" to just back up out of grab range and use an aerial. I'm not sure if he knows but aerials give Sonic back some momentum after springing so that stuff could help. He said he does smart reading of our topics so I'm sure he'll see this at some point.

 

[Kinzer]

Airdodge also helps gain more horizontal momemtum after a Spring.

Happy Birthday, no more whiffing attacks.

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

Yeah I told him airdodge was the best option but it's always nice to have more. Or some. Y'know. Since Sonic doesn't have any.


You wanna talk about options? Werehog AND a sword baby!

 

[Kinzer]

I want to get Sonic Unleashed, but I feel like I've drained enough money from my parents, so meh...

Also what about some sword?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

KNIGHT OF THE WIND!

I'm playing Sonic unleashed right now. I had 1 running stage and like... a hojillion werehog stages. The werehog was HORRIBLE at first. But now that I got some new abilities it's....still pretty bad. Playable though. I assume it's like Sonic and the Secret Rings in that regard. At FIRST it seems kind of bad. But once you have your character at a higher level it's fun. I HOPE that's the case. No one was looking forward to werehog in the first place. If it BOMBS the whole way through I'll be very sad...... The running stages are GREAT though. Need some more of those. T_T

 

[aeghrur]

Sonic does have a lot of mindgame potential, but I think he relies on them too much.
he also lacks a GTFO attack. His priority isn't as bad as everyone says. T_T

U-smash has high priority at a point, and is disjointed, I think...
U-air is highly disjointed.
F-smash is slightly disjointed right?
B-air is slightly disjointed. :O

Oh, but isn't Sonic's grab range horrendous? Dx

 

[Camalange]

His grab range isn't great, but it doesn't really matter because of his speed.
And F-Smash I know is disjointed when stutterstepped, but not too sure when it's just a plain ol' smash.

I know if someone is walking into you from behind, the fist will hit you.
It's hilarious, my friend gets hit by it all the time :D

 

[infomon]

edit: After further testing, I can't seem to do it. But what I can do (which is really interesting btw) is homming attack towards the little lip thing on FD, and I will bounce under the stage. From there you can wall jump, and from that you can second jump (or spinshot).

(...)

How do you send replays to people?

The instant ledge-walljump has very strict timing, even with taking your 2nd jump. Here's the [video] I learned it from. That HA>walljump>jump thing is neat, I'ma mess with that a bunch. (Did I already post this somewhere? I feel deja-vuey).

Anyway, to send ppl replays from your Wii, you need to add each other's Wiis from the Wii menu, then send it from Brawl. It's a real pain. But I can post vids to youtube if you send them to me, just lemme know.

Oh, but isn't Sonic's grab range horrendous?

It's bad, but we make up for it with our speed/shield-grab ability.