Unfortunately, Dr. Mario is probably the worst character in the game

[HeroMystic]

WFT's hitboxes are wonky, but that's mostly just player knowledge. F-tilt can hit behind her, for example.

Doc is probably better than Ganondorf, Zelda, Samus, and Falco. I'm iffy on Falco since he hasn't been repped by anyone other than LOF|Keitaro, but I'm pretty confident he's better than the former three.

 

[atomicblast360]

Little Mac is likely mid tier, Doctor Mario is likely low, and Olimar is likely high-mid, have you seen the top olimars in smash 4?

 

[Luggy]

is a good character, like anyone in the roster. You play him well, you make the character look good.

Doc is more about spacing than anything else. Since he's slow, you need your opponent to be offensive and counter him with a defensive play. The pills helps a lot, as it makes your opponent go to you. Generally, when the opponent is near Doc, you need to read perfectly and do the best option. At low percents, grabs and jabs are pretty good. At mid percents, DSmash is great for spacing and at high percents, the UpB out of shield and FSmash are great options for Doc to K.O.
He needs to space his opponents. Simple as that.

In my opinion, his recovery isn't bad : it's just easy to punish. I usually do a tornado and a jump when I'm out of the stage, so that I still have a safe way to recover. You need to be cautious with Doc when recovering, that's really all.

Overall, I still think Doc is pretty viable in competitive play. He has the options, the spacing and K.O abilities to make himself a great character. He's clearly not the worst.

 

[Meek Moths]

Is Dr. Mario even a doctor when he can't even cure his badness?

 

[Luggy]

Is Dr. Mario even a doctor when he can't even cure his badness?

For badness, I don't know, but for his medical stuff, I'm not so sure either. His forces his patients to eat pills by making them appear outta nowhere. And his prostate exams are rough with his UpB.
I'm not even sure his pills cure anything. They can make you either high or...really down.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Is Dr. Mario even a doctor when he can't even cure his badness?

I think Dr. Tornado was the cure that most of us other Docs beside like M@v and Kisatamura missed for like 2-3 months. Like WOW this move is dumb.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

I think Dr. Tornado was the cure that most of us other Docs beside like M@v and Kisatamura missed for like 2-3 months. Like WOW this move is dumb.

Disgustingly strong priority. Is there any confirmation of it having more priority than Luigi Cyclone?

 

[TTTTTsd]

Disgustingly strong priority. Is there any confirmation of it having more priority than Luigi Cyclone?

They share priority, oddly. I just think Luigi's hitbox is taller and less useful for edgeguarding than Doc's is (or offensively in general). He doesn't really have to rely on his Nado as much outside of high % kills after a D-Throw or panic button escape.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

They share priority, oddly. I just think Luigi's hitbox is taller and less useful for edgeguarding than Doc's is (or offensively in general). He doesn't really have to rely on his Nado as much outside of high % kills after a D-Throw or panic button escape.

Thank you for the confirmation.
I'm fairly certain that Luigi's knocks people upwards while Doc launches sideways, so yeah, Doc can land some really early gimps.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Not even a gimp, it's just an outright early off the side KO because for some reason it hits like an atomic bomb offstage (almost as strong as Falco's bair with it being the kind of move it is makes it incredibly potent.)

 

[STR]

First off,

omg that video. i'm dying

 

[warionumbah2]

Doc is probably better than Ganondorf.

How is he better than Ganondorf? Other than having a projectile that bounces over short characters heads and D-Special as an edge guard tool. What does Doc do that Ganondorf can't? Even the edgeguard bit is a stretch since Ganondorf's edgegaurding tools are strong.

 

[Macchiato]

How is he better than Ganondorf? Other than having a projectile that bounces over short characters heads and D-Special as an edge guard tool. What does Doc do that Ganondorf can't? Even the edgeguard bit is a stretch since Ganondorf's edgegaurding tools are strong.

I think he is because doc has a slightly better recovery and the mobility helps doc. ganondorf is also easily comboed by doc. Doc's Fsmash is very strong and it comes out faster than all of ganons smashes.

 

[TTTTTsd]

How is he better than Ganondorf? Other than having a projectile that bounces over short characters heads and D-Special as an edge guard tool. What does Doc do that Ganondorf can't? Even the edgeguard bit is a stretch since Ganondorf's edgegaurding tools are strong.

Well I'm not going to speak for which is better but Down-B is more than just edgeguarding. It reliably beats a lot of moves with high priority and gives Doc strong defensive options both when breaking out of combos and for punishing moves being thrown out. Dair is also good for breaking out of things and beating spotdodges or dodges in general. Really I think Doc's overall gameplan on the defensive side is much better than Ganon's in terms of when Doc is getting hit compared to, say, Ganon.

Keep in mind Dr. Mario also has all of Mario's frame data barring Dair, and Ganondorf doesn't have stuff like Doc's Up+B either (which is a kill move out of shield like WOW).

The only reason Doc isn't bad is cause of Nado though. It has the power to make him good because of how strong a move it is combined with his other defensive options.

 

[warionumbah2]

I think he is because doc has a slightly better recovery and the mobility helps doc. ganondorf is also easily comboed by doc. Doc's Fsmash is very strong and it comes out faster than all of ganons smashes.

But Ganondorf lives longer thanks to his weight, both are slow in movement but Ganondorf doesn't have horrible range like Doc and his damage output is better. Doc's F-Smash has horrible range despite its power, Ganondorfs has solid range and kill power not to mention the fact that his F-Smash is safe on shield due to the push effect it has. His Dtilt alone out ranges all of Docs moves his Uair alone out ranges all of Doc's aerials.

Ganondorf isn't bad at all this ain't Brawl. I'm not convinced that Doc is better sadly.

Well I'm not going to speak for which is better but Down-B is more than just edgeguarding. It reliably beats a lot of moves with high priority and gives Doc strong defensive options both when breaking out of combos and for punishing moves being thrown out. Dair is also good for breaking out of things and beating spotdodges or dodges in general. Really I think Doc's overall gameplan on the defensive side is much better than Ganon's in terms of when Doc is getting hit compared to, say, Ganon.

Keep in mind Dr. Mario also has all of Mario's frame data barring Dair, and Ganondorf doesn't have stuff like Doc's Up+B either (which is a kill move out of shield like WOW).

The only reason Doc isn't bad is cause of Nado though. It has the power to make him good because of how strong a move it is combined with his other defensive options.

Thing about Ganondorf is that he can bring back the pain in fewer hits, get a few reads with Ganondorf and you're most likely breaching 40% within less than 5 hits. Dr Mario doesn't have a decent range kill move like Ganondorf, like i said things like Dtilt and Ftilt which out ranges all of Docs moves and it can kill.

Nado is indeed a great move despite its lack luster damage output. This move alone makes him at least ok instead of the usual 'bad' sticker people slap on his forehead.

 

[Macchiato]

But Ganondorf lives longer thanks to his weight, both are slow in movement but Ganondorf doesn't have horrible range like Doc and his damage output is better. Doc's F-Smash has horrible range despite its power, Ganondorfs has solid range and kill power not to mention the fact that his F-Smash is safe on shield due to the push effect it has. His Dtilt alone out ranges all of Docs moves his Uair alone out ranges all of Doc's aerials.

Ganondorf isn't bad at all this ain't Brawl. I'm not convinced that Doc is better sadly.

Actually it's not terrible range, compared to the cast he has decent range. The mobility just makes doc better imo. It's okay if your untitled to your opinion. I think he's better though since the tornado just gives him crazy priority, and reasons I listed above and earlier.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc's FSmash is like 10 frames faster than Ganon's so I'd hardly call that a fair comparison.

Really the ideal reasoning is that Dr. Mario's disadvantaged state is not as bad as Ganondorf's overall. He doesn't have range but he doesn't have to commit to normals with less favorable frame data as opposed to Ganon, and he handles projectile based characters much better than Ganon does as whole. Also Down-B. Down-B comes out 2 frames slower than Ganon's fastest grounded normal (Jab) and has more favorable priority to boot (ALBEIT less range)

IDK I think both of them are aight chars (Doc somewhere in mid-low, Ganon somewhere in mid, maybe? IDFK) but the reasoning for Doc being better isn't really baseless and it doesn't exactly lack weight, really. Ganon's mistakes are generally punished harder than Doc's regardless of how long he lives. Doc Nado theoretically hits harder than Ganon's Bair but IDK if you can go as deep with it. Also Up+B OoS is ridiculous and it gives him a stronger shield game than Ganon as well, I believe.

 

[warionumbah2]

Actually it's not terrible range, compared to the cast he has decent range. The mobility just makes doc better imo. It's okay if your untitled to your opinion. I think he's better though since the tornado just gives him crazy priority, and reasons I listed above and earlier.

When the sweet spot is literally on his hand then yes its range is bad, to land a move like that requires a hard read. How does having a sluggish mobility benefit Doc? Could've sworn his mobility is actually a weakness and is accepted as such throughout the community, things like that can make a difference to match ups altogether.

So does Luigi with his nado but that alone doesn't make him insane its everything else, you only said that Doc has slightly better recovery and that he can combo Ganondorf(yet Ganon can get 3 hits to equalize the percentage) in that last post but to each their own.

Doc's FSmash is like 10 frames faster than Ganon's so I'd hardly call that a fair comparison.

Really the ideal reasoning is that Dr. Mario's disadvantaged state is not as bad as Ganondorf's overall. He doesn't have range but he doesn't have to commit to normals with less favorable frame data as opposed to Ganon, and he handles projectile based characters much better than Ganon does as whole. Also Down-B. Down-B comes out 2 frames slower than Ganon's fastest grounded normal (Jab) and has more favorable priority to boot (ALBEIT less range)

IDK I think both of them are aight chars (Doc somewhere in mid-low, Ganon somewhere in mid, maybe? IDFK) but the reasoning for Doc being better isn't really baseless and it doesn't exactly lack weight, really. Ganon's mistakes are generally punished harder than Doc's regardless of how long he lives. Doc Nado theoretically hits harder than Ganon's Bair but IDK if you can go as deep with it. Also Up+B OoS is ridiculous and it gives him a stronger shield game than Ganon as well, I believe.

Honestly im well aware that Docs frame data is good but its the fact that his range is poor. I think Ganondorf can handle projectile users fine on certain stages and perform better than Doc on stages such as battlefield, but Doc has no choice but to go in while Ganondorf can stay just out of their range so long as his tilts can connect.

Non of what your saying is baseless just not very convincing like all im getting is his Up OOS and Down-B beating a lot of moves. A lot of match ups are hell for Doc because of slow movement and range, Lucina,Marth,Ike,Shulk thrive off these weaknesses. And yeah Doc has a much nicer time against projectile users but Link literally destroys him in CQC due to disjointed hitboxes and range.

I still think Doc is best suited for teams he's insane in that area.

 

[Macchiato]

It's good for a punish, and his range is decent. Well your comparing him to Ganon for one thing.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Marth and Lucina I don't know about vs. Doc honestly. He has a more annoying projectile than Mario and they have a really bad Fair now LOL (well not REALLY bad but they're pretty laggy compared to the old days) so I don't know if they can swat off or ignore his projectiles. I won't disagree Doc is better in doubles but I really don't think he's awful either. Down-B beating a lot goes a long way because of what it can do for him and I'm only really trying to bring light as to why someone would say he's better than Ganondorf because there ARE legitimate reasons why someone could reasonably think it. I don't know between the two I think they're both somewhere in the middle of the roster (Doc is prob lower but I don't know!)

Doc just doesn't seem exceptionally bad or even bottom 10 to me anymore, I really don't think he's even CLOSE to that level of flawed. His only hellish MUs are like, Ike, Shulk, maybe Pika but IDK, everything else I can't see worse than 6:4 in opponent's favor or closer to 5:5. Could be jaded, could be early meta, but using Down-B changes a lot and the fact that he can kill you at probably lower than 70% (cause he kills Bowser at that % with Down-B edgeguarding) means that if he puts you offstage and your recovery is anywhere close to linear you're probably going to die.

 

[warionumbah2]

It's good for a punish, and his range is decent. Well your comparing him to Ganon for one thing.

Well duh the first post you quoted was me wondering why Doc was possibly better than Ganondorf. I can compare him to MK who's range isn't that great but his moves are all disjointed so he beats out a lot of moves at worst clank(like sometimes his Dtilt clanks with Mario's DA).

Marth and Lucina I don't know about vs. Doc honestly. He has a more annoying projectile than Mario and they have a really bad Fair now LOL (well not REALLY bad but they're pretty laggy compared to the old days) so I don't know if they can swat off or ignore his projectiles. I won't disagree Doc is better in doubles but I really don't think he's awful either. Down-B beating a lot goes a long way because of what it can do for him and I'm only really trying to bring light as to why someone would say he's better than Ganondorf because there ARE legitimate reasons why someone could reasonably think it. I don't know between the two I think they're both somewhere in the middle of the roster (Doc is prob lower but I don't know!)

Doc just doesn't seem exceptionally bad or even bottom 10 to me anymore, I really don't think he's even CLOSE to that level of flawed. His only hellish MUs are like, Ike, Shulk, maybe Pika but IDK, everything else I can't see worse than 6:4 in opponent's favor or closer to 5:5. Could be jaded, could be early meta, but using Down-B changes a lot and the fact that he can kill you at probably lower than 70% (cause he kills Bowser at that % with Down-B edgeguarding) means that if he puts you offstage and your recovery is anywhere close to linear you're probably going to die.

Yeah their aerials suck but literally that's the problem right here, the only way Doc can punish that lag is by firing pills if Doc had the speed he could do so much damage. And its not like they'll be flinging aerials on stage anyway unless they either suck or expecting God knows what from above, they could swat the pills or power shield and keep Doc at a fix distance with their normals.I don't think there are that many hellish MU's other than high tiers but there are a lot of MU's that aren't in his favor but as you said there are some where its even.

 

[TTTTTsd]

He's basically incredibly honest and only loses sort of hard to the top tier characters you'd expect. Mainly Sheik, Pika. Diddy isn't horrible with Doc actually (stronger defense helps in this scenario) but not favorable. Most everything else isn't horrible either, really. I mean, losing to the top tiers is pretty ordinary in this game.

My real point is that he's not bottom 5. Or 10.

 

[Macchiato]

Actually his MUs could put him to mid if he gets more rep than koolaid

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

Like a lot of characters at this stage in the meta, Dr. Mario has trouble against fast characters with fast attacks and his lackluster range. His defense is by no means lacking and he has superb options to help him, compared to someone like Ganon he heavily relies on reads and has better rewards on hit but has no GOOD defense options. Success with Doc requires surgical precison and knowing what you can do and when you should do it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Nado is indeed a great move despite its lack luster damage output. This move alone makes him at least ok instead of the usual 'bad' sticker people slap on his forehead.

Noticed you added that in later, agreed. Although, the only reason it's fair is cause it does that damage lol. Given that damage comes into knockback equation, looking at its data through the data charts is terrifying. The last hit (offstage killing blow) does 3%, with staggering knockback values of 80 Base knockback and 130 knockback growth. Imagine if the last hit did like, 5 or 6 percent instead.

Nightmares. I almost think Sakurai might not wanna buff this dude outside of maybe Uair damage up a little bit cause...delicacy in the face of Nado.

 

[M@v]

He won't be in low tier. Low-Mid tier at absolute worst but more likely mid-mid tier. If he winds up in low tier, I'll enjoy taking everyone's lunch money at low tier tourneys with Doc.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

He won't be in low tier. Low-Mid tier at absolute worst but more likely mid-mid tier. If he winds up in low tier, I'll enjoy taking everyone's lunch money at low tier tourneys with Doc.

I hope he ends up at least close or above Mario in tier lists just to prove that Doc is in fact a very solid character competitively.
It's Melee Doc all over again. At first no one thought much of him until someone explored his potential.

 

[Macchiato]

I hope he ends up at least close or above Mario in tier lists just to prove that Doc is in fact a very solid character competitively.
It's Melee Doc all over again. At first no one thought much of him until someone explored his potential.

Koolaids doing really well with him. Haven't you guys seen the CT invitational

 

[Lime Cultivist]

If his cape hitbox is still bigger than Mario's than that's at least a plus. I'd say mid tier like everyone else, but then again I think a lot of people are just grouping most characters into mid tier and throwing a few characters they're salty about losing to (diddy, diddy, and diddy) in top tier and characters that they've lost with into bottom tier. Hell I'm guilty of this too. The game is pretty well balanced so far, it seems. But I do hate Diddy, can't be unbiased.​

 

[M@v]

I hope he ends up at least close or above Mario in tier lists just to prove that Doc is in fact a very solid character competitively.
It's Melee Doc all over again. At first no one thought much of him until someone explored his potential.

His main problem is his mobility. He just can't keep up with most characters movement wise. He needs smaller stages to cancel that put somewhat and improve his chances. Lylats really good for him and bf is decent too.

 

[Luggy]

I hope he ends up at least close or above Mario in tier lists just to prove that Doc is in fact a very solid character competitively.
It's Melee Doc all over again. At first no one thought much of him until someone explored his potential.

People need to play him more. is very solid in this game, he's just really different compared to his Melee style. He has a solid defensive game, strong grabs, an okay recovery, a beautiful UpB, strong smash attacks and great projectiles. If you play him well, Doc can dominate other characters easily. His mobility sucks, yes, but he knows how to punish. Doc needs to space out his opponent to be safe, wich he can do easily with his DSmash or pills.
If people play him more, then Doc can go higher than Mario. Trust me.

Speaking of Doc, for those who hates recovering with him and wants a fast way to grab the ledge, use the cape. Since it has a longer range, it gives Doc a better way to recover. It doesn't stall you in the air, but at least it helps at recovering in some ways.

 

[warionumbah2]

If you play him well, Doc can dominate other characters easily.

Like who?

 

[TTTTTsd]

I wouldn't say dominate, but chars I think he can do feasibly ok against are, from my personal experience:
- Ganondorf (either close to even or mildly in Ganon's favor, Doc has a good projectile which irritates Ganon compared to Mario)
- Luigi (Probably Even, he handles Weeg better than Mario could ever hope to)
- Samus (At least without customs)
- Probably Kirby

I'm not positive about any of these but I think these are characters he might do best against. IMO I think he does better vs. lower tiered chars than Mario does, and vice versa. Which is where the disparity in their performance at the top level comes into play. Not that he CAN'T beat top tiers but they're harder for him than they are for Mario.

Also gonna agree that Doc does better on smaller stages and I'd wager those are the ones you want to go to with him.

Also to comment more on Marth and Lucina, their aerials are bad but the thing is Marth's ground game also got hit hard. His ftilt and FSmash are noticeably worse and dancing blade is worse for damage racking thanks to how it works now, just ask Shaya. Dtilt is still good but, yeah, the reason I don't see those as bad for Doc beyond like 6:4 is because of how toned down they are.

 

[MapleWooD]

Don't. Diss. Da Doc.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

I love how much this thread has livened up recently, and how the posts are all talking about how Doc is actually good despite the thread name.

 

[warionumbah2]

Also to comment more on Marth and Lucina, their aerials are bad but the thing is Marth's ground game also got hit hard. His ftilt and FSmash are noticeably worse and dancing blade is worse for damage racking thanks to how it works now, just ask Shaya. Dtilt is still good but, yeah, the reason I don't see those as bad for Doc beyond like 6:4 is because of how toned down they are.

Even so Marth can wall Dr Mario out, and play a patient game, played a Marth today with Kirby on battle field. All he did was abuse his range and spaced F-Smashes which is deadly for Doc since once he's off stage against Marth he's done for UNLESS his Down B beats disjointed hitboxes. Once Kirby is in he can deal heavy damage like Doc who has combo's but the sad thing was that he was too slow, only thing i can manage was a dash attack. Doc being hell of a lot slower i think 13 places below Kirby in running speed will barely get a grab in.

Best bet is to stay just outside their range so you can punish their laggy moves, its not very safe since you'll be in tipper range.

The MU isn't heavily in his favor but it sure as hell isn't in Docs favor i'm positive of that, i can see it being even for Lucina since she can't end stocks as early as Marth or Doc and staying close but not too close isn't scary at all because she got no tipper.

I love how much this thread has livened up recently, and how the posts are all talking about how Doc is actually good despite the thread name.

The OP said Luigi sucks before same thread and all. And look at Luigi now.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Doc vs. Kirby isn't really reliant on his grabs. He has pills that force Kirby to approach by jumping or running under them if you fullhop Pill, and I believe his tilts have equal or better range. Down-B also helps vs. Kirby a lot and his UpTilt from my experience can only be Naired out of if your Nair has 3 frames since it does more damage (and slightly more hitstun thanks to this) than Mario's.

Doc vs. Marth is 6:4 Marth's favor, about the same maybe less for Lucina IMO because of annoying projectiles vs. even more annoying disjoint and blahblah.

 

[Luggy]

Like who?

Anyone if the player is good. He dominates more low/mid tier characters though, but he still got a lot of chances.
For example, I dominated a good by spacing well and using pills to my advantage. Really, Doc can be scary when played well. A good read, and you can finish games pretty fast.

Doc vs. Kirby isn't really reliant on his grabs. He has pills that force Kirby to approach by jumping or running under them if you fullhop Pill, and I believe his tilts have equal or better range. Down-B also helps vs. Kirby a lot and his UpTilt from my experience can only be Naired out of if your Nair has 3 frames since it does more damage (and slightly more hitstun thanks to this) than Mario's.

Doc vs. Marth is 6:4 Marth's favor, about the same maybe less for Lucina IMO because of annoying projectiles vs. even more annoying disjoint and blahblah.

Never really played Doc vs , but it's pretty even. Doc can K.O Kirby fast, but Kirby can gimp Doc easily.
Doc vs or Lucina is pretty much like you described. The best spacing game won. Even though I'll say that Doc has more chances to win with his pills though.

The OP said Luigi sucks before same thread and all. And look at Luigi now.

was always a good character.

 

[MegaBlaster1234]

was always a good character.

When the 3DS version launched people thought Luigi was trash because of how much he slides around and slightly nerfed Super Jump Punch.
But now Luigi has been on the rise, especially with prominent Luigi player Boss winning multiple tournaments decisively.

 

[Luggy]

was always a good character.

When the 3DS version launched people thought Luigi was trash because of how much he slides around and slightly nerfed Super Jump Punch.
But now Luigi has been on the rise, especially with prominent Luigi player Boss winning multiple tournaments decisively.

Well, needs the same fate then. I think he's a great character, he's just not played the right way.
It's not the from Melee who was more agressive and had a wavedash to help him out having a better mobility (he already had one in Melee), it's a more defensive Doc here, who needs to be patient. It's ironic that people are whinning over his recovery. In Melee, he had one of the worst recovery of the game. But since Smash 4 has a bigger roster with better recoveries, Doc feels worse than before. But he's not bad, like every character in this game.

Man, it's rare to see a Doc thread actually having life in it. It's good, we need to keep that up. It would be good to have original threads other than " Doc recovery sucks " or " Is Doc the worst character in the game ? ". We need better threads, that could help people discovering the potential of Doc. The more activity, the more we discover things about Doc and the better the character will be.