Vers. 1.6.0 Patch Notes

[Braydon]

While an Usmash and Fair buff is nice I don't see how nintendo thought this would be enough to make Dr mario decent...

 

[Roostertone]

I tested this and unfortunately his Up B got nerfed. The sweet spot range got reduced. A LOT. In fact, I sometimes don't even get the sweet spot during the opening frames, I just get the sourspot. This never happened to me in the prior patch. I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned this yet because this is the best move Doc has.

I hate the new USmash. With the old one on Medium to Heavy characters, you could string two USmashes together from a DThrow based on an airdodge read then finish off the string with a DSmash. That's ~40%. On the new one, the trajectory is literal **** and stringing together anything doesn't compare to it, also it's harder to do. The old one could kill off the top of maps very easily and now it can't.

Weird, I haven't noticed any difference at all with his up B. The sweet spot range and timing feels exactly the same as it did pre-patch. Are you sure you didn't just mis-space it?

As for the upsmash, yeah, I kind of have mixed feelings about it. Sure, it has the potential to kill earlier off the sides, but that rarely happens unless you're right up near the edge, and it generally kills off the top about ~5-10% later than the old upsmash did. It's also definitely harder to combo with it at low %, although I have found a few strings you can do with it. Upsmash -> grab is a thing now, since the trajectory will place them right beside you when at low damage. I've also managed to get Upsmash -> Fsmash (35%!) a few times, against people who immediately airdodge after getting hit by the upsmash.

 

[Kisatamura]

UpB still seems the same. You can still hit with the sweetspot even when Doc is facing away from the opponent and they are literally side by side.

USmash is one of the few things in this patch that wasn't a nerf or a buff: It's legitimately a new move for Doc due to it's changed knockback changing how the move is used after it connects. That being said, it has new followups in exchange for using USmash twice in a row. Besides, USmash at low-mid percents gives Doc some intense momentum due to the opponent being sent flying away facing away from the opponent, so that they'll be forced to either turn around using a special move, or be forced to use aerial attacks in the opposite direction.

 

[Defex]

I for one love the USmash change I use it more as a get off me option now rather than a kill option. The Fair buff is nice too.

Ive notices no changes with upB

 

[MarioMeteor]

I tested this and unfortunately his Up B got nerfed. The sweet spot range got reduced. A LOT. In fact, I sometimes don't even get the sweet spot during the opening frames, I just get the sourspot. This never happened to me in the prior patch. I'm actually surprised no one has mentioned this yet because this is the best move Doc has.

I hate the new USmash. With the old one on Medium to Heavy characters, you could string two USmashes together from a DThrow based on an airdodge read then finish off the string with a DSmash. That's ~40%. On the new one, the trajectory is literal **** and stringing together anything doesn't compare to it, also it's harder to do. The old one could kill off the top of maps very easily and now it can't.

The only buffs I've noticed is his Dair and Fair. Dair in general is faster and has a lot less ending lag when landing. % DMG is the same. Fair does more DMG, but I rarely ever used it anyways as it's too risky and he's not fast enough to punish with it. Down B does not have shorter landing lag. He does not jump higher and does not run faster.

Until he gets changed in the next patch, I think it's safe to drop him currently. Two moves that were, to me, the things that held him together got hit really hard. I guess I'll wait for my PM Main to come back in June then we'll see what happens. It was fun being able to play Doc in two tournaments, especially since I won 3 sets at each one. I made new friends playing him and such, but his legacy is over. Thanks Sakurai for nerfing an already mediocre character. Sorry for the negativity fellow Doc players, I really didn't want it to come to this.

Super Jump Punch is exactly the same, drama queen. Placebo Effect is hitting you like the flu. The only changes made to the Good Doctor were his new up smash, his stronger Doc Punch, and the slightest bit less ending lag on Tornado. Nothing else.

 

[Zegend]

Super Jump Punch is exactly the same, drama queen. Placebo Effect is hitting you like the flu. The only changes made to the Good Doctor were his new up smash, his stronger Doc Punch, and the slightest bit less ending lag on Tornado. Nothing else.

fair?

 

[MarioMeteor]

fair?

Yes.

 

[waterfall6464]

So how much faster is tornado now?

 

[Zegend]

Yes.

wasn't aware we were calling it the "Doc punch" now

So how much faster is tornado now?

barely

 

[Dobbston]

Although I dislike Usmash's reduced kill power I do like that a well-spaced reverse Usmash has a lot more reward at lower percents.

 

[WeirdJoe27]

I know there has really only been the 2 patches, but either time, has a character's move ever been changed quite like Doc's upSmash? I know they've changed things like damage, KB, frames, etc, but to me, Doc's upSmash is a totally different move now. I just don't recall them changing the way a move works quite like this before. Kind of an odd thing to do.

 

[Zegend]

All they changed was the trajectory. It's still the same for everything else, right?

 

[WeirdJoe27]

All they changed was the trajectory. It's still the same for everything else, right?

Yeah, but trajectory changes a lot. I've lost a lot of KOs because, instead of sending my opponent upward to their death, it sends them all the way across the stage. Yesterday I hit a Sonic twice with upSmash, he avoided death because it sent him to the opposite side of the screen instead of up (and, had it sent him the other way, he'd have also died). At first I didn't mind the new mechanics on the move, but now that I've used it some, I realize I can't rely on it as much.

I'm still trying to figure out how the direction of the upSmash is determined. I think the longer it's held, the more horizontal it becomes. But even then, I never know if it's going to send them right or left. I've been facing away from people, with them standing behind me, and had them fly further back but also sometimes in front. Such an unpredictable move now.

 

[hey_there]

I never know if it's going to send them right or left.

It sends them towards the side Doc is on, whether he's facing them or not.

I actually like the new trajectory. I've found it very useful to toss someone offstage after I've lost stage control and set myself up for an edge guard. But there have been times where I've lost a potential KO because I accidentally position myself wrong and I send someone across the stage =S.

Also, is it just me, or does it seem to have higher KB in addition to the new trajectory? I remember usmash being weaker than Mario/Luigi's and getting KOs much later than theirs, but now I seem to send opponents much, much farther.

 

[Zegend]

It sends them towards the side Doc is on, whether he's facing them or not

interesting. thanks for that little fact, i was confused about that too

 

[WeirdJoe27]

It sends them towards the side Doc is on, whether he's facing them or not.

I haven't found this to be the case, but I guess I'll have to do some more testing just to be sure. I swear I've had people behind me and sent them flying both directions in the same match. I tend to use the upSmash when an opponent rolls behind me. Usually it will send them back in front of me, but I've actually hit them further back as well. I'm not sure if it's just how close they are to me or maybe how long I've charged the attack. Either way, I feel like it's almost random at times.

 

[Man Li Gi]

The old usmash was a good way to bait characters to attacking Dr. Mario's head, only to be syked by the invincibility. Now, they just just messed with move for no reason. I really don't understand.

 

[MarioMeteor]

The new up smash can actually combo at low percents. Unfortunately, though, you won't be chaining multiple up smashes together anymore.

 

[Dobbston]

The new up smash can actually combo at low percents. Unfortunately, though, you won't be chaining multiple up smashes together anymore.

Forward Usmash to reverse Usmash (31 dmg) combos on King Dedede at 45 percent but I know what you mean.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Forward Usmash to reverse Usmash (31 dmg) combos on King Dedede at 45 percent but I know what you mean.

Well, King Dedede is just a punching bag with a hammer. Everything combos him.
I can definitely see what they were trying to do with the new up smash. If it just had less ending lag, it'd be like 3x better. Just imagine it: up smash to Doc Punch. Glorious.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

It hits on the side that Doc is on relative to the opponent.

If it had less lag and set knockback (enough to combo into a sweetspot up b), it might be better. Still, it is not that bad.

 

[MarioMeteor]

It

If it had less lag and set knockback.

It would kind of defeat the purpose of a smash attack if it has set knockback.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

It would kind of defeat the purpose of a smash attack if it has set knockback.

Fair point, but so would being able to combo into his Fair. I wish Down Throw into Fair wasn't so difficult.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Fair point, but so would being able to combo into his Fair. I wish Down Throw into Fair wasn't so difficult.

It's difficult because it's not a combo. Unless you're opponent actually sets their controller down while you throw them. Down throw -> up air -> Doc Punch is a better way to do it. You could also do down tilt to Doc Punch, but it's kinda hard. But yes, having combos into Doc Punch would be nice.

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

It's difficult because it's not a combo. Unless you're opponent actually sets their controller down while you throw them. Down throw -> up air -> Doc Punch is a better way to do it. You could also do down tilt to Doc Punch, but it's kinda hard. But yes, having combos into Doc Punch would be nice.

I know the combos dude. Someone posted a gif of Doc landing Down Throw to Fair on ZSS in training mode. And it registered as a combo. Will see if I can find it. Maybe the training mode is buggy or it's just insanely difficult.

EDIT: Found it.

 

[MarioMeteor]

I know the combos dude. Someone posted a gif of Doc landing Down Throw to Fair on ZSS in training mode. And it registered as a combo. Will see if I can find it. Maybe the training mode is buggy or it's just insanely difficult.

EDIT: Found it.

Does training mode account for DI or character traits? No. Nobody with reflexes is going to actually get hit by that. Even if it is a combo, which it isn't, why would you even bother with something that takes that much effort to land?

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

Does training mode account for DI or character traits? No. Nobody with reflexes is going to actually get hit by that. Even if it is a combo, which it isn't, why would you even bother with something that takes that much effort to land?

I never said it was practical at all (the fact that I was wishing that it was easier shows that I think it is impractical). Just that it's possible, but difficult.

Training mode not accounting for DI doesn't really disprove anything in this case. The training mode is buggy in some instances (being able to combo multiple Confusions is not possible in a match, especially for a move that is negative on hit).

 

[MarioMeteor]

Training mode not accounting for DI doesn't really disprove anything in this case.

It kind of does. It's not really a comboif it can simply be DI out of. And it's not like the Hoo-Ha where DI hardly makes a difference.

 

[t!MmY]

Does training mode account for DI or character traits? No. Nobody with reflexes is going to actually get hit by that.

Yes the set-up looks situational, difficult, and DI-able, but the information provided by Eight_SixtyFour is still valuable; no need to try to depreciate it. Good players can follow DI, so if you D-throw and know the set-up ahead of time you can go for the combo and profit.

Even if it is a combo, which it isn't, why would you even bother with something that takes that much effort to land?

The GIF shows that it is a combo. Even still, non-combos are still important because you can catch people on the start up of an Air Dodge (1st or 2nd frame) and it will 'pseudo combo' even if it isn't a true combo.

 

[MarioMeteor]

and it will 'pseudo combo' even if it isn't a true combo.

Keyword being "pseudo." It's not something to put faith in. I could see if it was reliable, but when there are better methods to acheiving the same result, I really don't see the benefit,

 

[Dobbston]

Keyword being "pseudo." It's not something to put faith in. I could see if it was reliable, but when there are better methods to acheiving the same result, I really don't see the benefit,

If it's guaranteed and kills, it's worth it. The only other combos that can kill from Dthrow so far are Dthrow to Up B (19 dmg) and Dthrow to Uair to Up B (26 dmg).

 

[Eight_SixtyFour]

It kind of does. It's not really a comboif it can simply be DI out of. And it's not like the Hoo-Ha where DI hardly makes a difference.

Generally speaking, if it registers as a combo in training mode (there are some exceptions, such as Mewtwo's Confusion not resetting the counter) it's a combo, DI or not. DI obviously affects the usefulness of said combo (which can be worked around via reading an air dodge and/or following the opponent after they DI), but it combos nevertheless.

I said it's impractical from the start and that I wish it wasn't.

 

[t!MmY]

Keyword being "pseudo." It's not something to put faith in. I could see if it was reliable, but when there are better methods to acheiving the same result, I really don't see the benefit,

The "pseudo" was in reference to a hypothetical non-combo example, not to the D-throw -> F-air (which was already established as an actual combo via evidential proof). Your post when you say "I really don't see the benefit" shows that you have not grasped the context of what I was saying. To clarify: even non-combos are useful to strong players willing to take advantage of specific situations.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If it's guaranteed and kills, it's worth it.

But it's not anywhere near guarenteed, which is why I have to question its usefulness.

The "pseudo" was in reference to a hypothetical non-combo example, not to the D-throw -> F-air (which was already established as an actual combo via evidential proof). Your post when you say "I really don't see the benefit" shows that you have not grasped the context of what I was saying. To clarify: even non-combos are useful to strong players willing to take advantage of specific situations.

That's all I have to say on the matter.

I know what you were saying. What I don't think you've grasped is my rebuttal: Why would you go through the trouble of landing a certain "non-combo" when there are other ways to achieve the same results?

 

[Dobbston]

But it's not anywhere near guarenteed, which is why I have to question its usefulness.

Unless it's proven that it's always escapable with DI it's worth at least trying out. It might turn out that Dthrow to Fair (22 dmg) is escapable but just saying it is because it's difficult to do isn't the same thing.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Unless it's proven that it's always escapable with DI it's worth at least trying out. It might turn out that Dthrow to Fair (22 dmg) is escapable but just saying it is because it's difficult to do isn't the same thing.

I know that full well. Which only adds to my point, that the "combo" is not only difficult to do, but escapable. You pretty much restated what I was saying. You can try it out all you want, but the chance of it working is too low for it to be of consistent or reliable use.

 

[Dobbston]

I know that full well. Which only adds to my point, that the "combo" is not only difficult to do, but escapable. You pretty much restated what I was saying. You can try it out all you want, but the chance of it working is too low for it to be of consistent or reliable use.

If you don't want to try and learn combos that's your choice but don't make claims unless you can back them up.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If you don't want to try and learn combos that's your choice but don't make claims unless you can back them up.

I don't hear you backing anything up. Not that you've said anything worth backing up. There's no combo to learn here because what you think is a combo, isn't.

 

[Dobbston]

I don't hear you backing anything up. Not that you've said anything worth backing up. There's no combo to learn here because what you think is a combo, isn't.

If training mode says that it's a combo, then that's good enough to at least start trying it out.

 

[MarioMeteor]

If training mode says that it's a combo, then that's good enough to at least start trying it out.

Whatever. If you say so.