Victory Outcomes Produced by Ganoncide

[Vermanubis]

Randomness is to some extent a part of Brawl. Tripping and losing due to Ganoncide are gay, yes, and no one is saying the game would be worse with them gone, but they ARE part of the game.

Personally I liked the old suicide rule, but this one is more "logical" TBH.

It's not logical, it's just ambivalent. BBR is a fan of the middle fallacy. If there are two extremes then the center of the two is correct/best.

It's logical insofar as overall outcome, but the constituency of it is flawed to hell. Everyone knows it.

 

[-Vocal-]

You know, even after all of this, I feel terribad that Ganon has to suffer such a high chance of loss Ganoncide if he doesn't get the right port. I guess...I guess it's just another way he's a terrible character unfortunately

Btw, how you do you guys recover without SideB on your other stocks?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

You know, even after all of this, I feel terribad that Ganon has to suffer such a high chance of loss Ganoncide if he doesn't get the right port. I guess...I guess it's just another way he's a terrible character unfortunately

Btw, how you do you guys recover without SideB on your other stocks?

We use UpB and get proper ****ed for landing it. Because either we get gimped out of it or they tech the stage and we still get gimped out of it.

Of course we could recover lower and hit them with the uppercut, but all they'd have to do is to regrab the ledge once they see we're going low.

 

[Vermanubis]

You know, even after all of this, I feel terribad that Ganon has to suffer such a high chance of loss Ganoncide if he doesn't get the right port. I guess...I guess it's just another way he's a terrible character unfortunately

Btw, how you do you guys recover without SideB on your other stocks?

We don't. SideB is pivotal to our survival. It's a deterrent; it keeps people on their toes when trying to gimp us.

Also, Tero, I read your PM just now, dude. Good idea with stamina mode. I'll have to do some testing there myself.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

We don't. SideB is pivotal to our survival. It's a deterrent; it keeps people on their toes when trying to gimp us.

Also, Tero, I read your PM just now, dude. Good idea with stamina mode. I'll have to do some testing there myself.

No problem, hopefully it can accomplish a lot of things thanks to the 4% we give to the opponent with sideB.

 

[Vermanubis]

Hype news.

I just tried Ganonciding D3 on Stamina mode on FD. We both died, but the results screen put me as the victor. We were both at 150 HP

Edit: Tried it on Bowser. I did it to him while at 30HP and him at 150HP. I won. Lost at lower percents to D3 and MK, but Bowser gives a win.

I think we're on the road to proving this **** is random, at least, between characters. Oh well, it still put Ganon there as the victor, so good for us lol.

 

[lordhelmet]

I just tested on a CPU.

Ganoncide/NTSC

If Ganon is a higher port the game will always end in sudden death. If Ganon is the lower port the other player will always win.

So now we have more of a reason to fight over ports because of the current rule. I say simple is better and thusly the rule should be "the initiator of the suicide move is the winner".

I'm just saying what happened 5 out of 5 times for both ports.

And Bowser is weird, I ended up winning regardless of ports. Is there a way to jump out or DI for either player to bend the situation? I don't really know.

Edit: For clarification I tested on DK/MK (on FD) both as a CPU and a Human (couldn't have entered any inputs) and got the same results.

H i

 

[Vermanubis]

lol

From the looks of it, Bowser's not the only weird one. I Ganoncided Diddy at a lower percent and port 1 and won 3 times in a row. I did the same to Bowser and won 2/3 times, second one being Bowser's win.

I'm telling you guys, Ganoncide was the result of lax programming. Every character has a different outcome due to a number of variables. It is simply too eradic to leave it as it is. It's also far too much to ask a Ganon main to memorize every character's outcome based on port/percentages.

 

[lordhelmet]

Maybe it's the characters I tested on *shrug*

It could be because of different stages as well. If you want try doing it against DK/MK on FD and see if you get the same results.

BTW, the lower port was always port 4 and the higher port was always port 1

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Hooray Verm my Idea is working

 

[-Vocal-]

No, no, no, no, no.

First, unless I'm bat crazy, I already provided the same data that Verm is giving, simply through a different method. If I am, then just listen.

Because I got curious while testing (mad boring stuff, let me tell you) I decided to see what would happen if a Ganoncide occurred during Sudden Death. Victim victory is still possible; however, if that does not occur, then the victor is determined by percent lead, and if both players are equal then Ganondorf is proclaimed the victor. An important thing to note is that the victim does not gain a +4% UNLESS he gains a victim victory - meaning that if both of you die, he gets no increase in percentage.

So yea. Stamina mode isn't going to prove anything - the +4% victim victory can still occur, and during modes that determine victory by percentage, Ganondorf will win if percents are even or he has a percentage lead.

Second, while I'm glad that you guys have begun to test this move that you've been using forever, don't make claims about it unless you use a reliable test method. Here are some basic steps to follow if you want to achieve this.

1) Establish a constant testing method. This means that variables must remain constant within a testing condition. Let me put this in a simplified example: I want to see if there is a difference in result between a Ganoncide performed in Port 1 and Port 4. Let's say the only other variable was percentage - if that was the case, then I must use the same percentage when testing both ports. For instance, I couldn't have equal percentages for the Port 1 testing and Ganondorf with a 30% lead for the Port 4 testing. Your variables must remain constant.

2) Run enough tests to get a reliable result. Four or five times isn't going to cut it - ten times is a minimum if you want results worth making claims on.

3) Test on a variety of characters. This is important because the move may interact differently with different characters, as we have already seen that it does from the OP. If you want credible results, you must have results from many places; if you test on only one character, there's no way to tell if that character is the exception to the rule or ordinary.

These are basic guidelines, and I think I covered everything.

 

[Ganonsburg]

No, no, no, no, no.

First, unless I'm bat crazy, I already provided the same data that Verm is giving, simply through a different method. If I am, then just listen.

Because I got curious while testing (mad boring stuff, let me tell you) I decided to see what would happen if a Ganoncide occurred during Sudden Death. Victim victory is still possible; however, if that does not occur, then the victor is determined by percent lead, and if both players are equal then Ganondorf is proclaimed the victor. An important thing to note is that the victim does not gain a +4% UNLESS he gains a victim victory - meaning that if both of you die, he gets no increase in percentage.

So yea. Stamina mode isn't going to prove anything - the +4% victim victory can still occur, and during modes that determine victory by percentage, Ganondorf will win if percents are even or he has a percentage lead.

Second, while I'm glad that you guys have begun to test this move that you've been using forever, don't make claims about it unless you use a reliable test method. Here are some basic steps to follow if you want to achieve this.

1) Establish a constant testing method. This means that variables must remain constant within a testing condition. Let me put this in a simplified example: I want to see if there is a difference in result between a Ganoncide performed in Port 1 and Port 4. Let's say the only other variable was percentage - if that was the case, then I must use the same percentage when testing both ports. For instance, I couldn't have equal percentages for the Port 1 testing and Ganondorf with a 30% lead for the Port 4 testing. Your variables must remain constant.

2) Run enough tests to get a reliable result. Four or five times isn't going to cut it - ten times is a minimum if you want results worth making claims on.

3) Test on a variety of characters. This is important because the move may interact differently with different characters, as we have already seen that it does from the OP. If you want credible results, you must have results from many places; if you test on only one character, there's no way to tell if that character is the exception to the rule or ordinary.

These are basic guidelines, and I think I covered everything.

So what if 4 or 5 times doesn't cut it? Verm got wins, which is something that never happened in your testing. What he's shown is that the variables concerning Ganoncide are too complex to be understood and might as well be random, or it's random.

And just because he's doing the testing in a different way doesn't mean he's doing it wrong and you should be telling him "No."

Also, "Spirit of the Game." It's in my WoT.

 

[-Vocal-]

So what if 4 or 5 times doesn't cut it? Verm got wins, which is something that never happened in your testing. What he's shown is that the variables concerning Ganoncide are too complex to be understood and might as well be random, or it's random.

And just because he's doing the testing in a different way doesn't mean he's doing it wrong and you should be telling him "No."

Also, "Spirit of the Game." It's in my WoT.

Dude, you missed what I just said.

IT HAPPENED IN SUDDEN DEATH, WHICH FOLLOWS THE SAME RULES FOR CONCURRENT DEATH AS STAMINA MODE.

And yes, I can tell him that he's doing it wrong; it's called the scientific method. Stamina mode may hold something to be discovered, so I must apologize for that part of my post; while I don't find it likely, I cannot discredit something that has not been tested. However, regardless of what you test, there is a right way and a wrong way to test it - didn't you have to learn the scientific method in elementary school?

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

You don't understand, it's all about testing the 4% your opponent gets when they win. In Stamina mode it's always a tie yet it shows a winner. This is what we're going by.

 

[B!squick]

I think we can all agree from this that this game is terrible.

 

[Ganonsburg]

Dude, you missed what I just said.

IT HAPPENED IN SUDDEN DEATH, WHICH FOLLOWS THE SAME RULES FOR CONCURRENT DEATH AS STAMINA MODE.

And yes, I can tell him that he's doing it wrong; it's called the scientific method. Stamina mode may hold something to be discovered, so I must apologize for that part of my post; while I don't find it likely, I cannot discredit something that has not been tested. However, regardless of what you test, there is a right way and a wrong way to test it - didn't you have to learn the scientific method in elementary school?

I learned the SM ages ago dude. Maybe you missed the part about there being no such thing as good or bad evidence. If evidence doesn't fit with what you expected, too bad. It happened.

As for the rest of your post, I really don't care. You're not understanding what we're saying, and you're adhering to your same handful of points without answering ours.

 

[-Vocal-]

You don't understand, it's all about testing the 4% your opponent gets when they win. In Stamina mode it's always a tie yet it shows a winner. This is what we're going by.

Wrong. I just did it twice in Stamina mode, and Metaknight claimed victory the second time in the same way he does in stock/percentage mode. Which brings me to the rule I forgot:

4) Test it in all ports.

Trivia: the +4% actually becomes -5 health in Stamina mode; this is likely because some damage deals unwhole amounts of damage (example: 4.5% damage) but the game will not round percentages up, meaning that if you have 4.5% damage, it will appear as 4 and not 5. Why this rounding pattern changes in Stamina mode is unclear, but whatev no one cares

Oh, and I don't need to run 240 tests on this to see that it is possible for the same type of victory to occur; I saw it happen, so it happens. Try it out for yourself: put Ganon in Port 4 and put MK in Port 1. Ganoncide a few times and I guarantee you it will eventually end in MK's victory.

I think we can all agree from this that this game is terrible.

It's funny because it's true

edit@Ganonsburg: I apologize - what is it that I haven't answered?

 

[B!squick]

Something else that may determine the outcome, and who knows, maybe it's the elusive X factor that makes it seem random, is the height at which Ganon initiates the suicide. I remember seeing a video about this, though I have no idea where. I tried searching YouTube, but turned up nothing, sadly.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

Wrong. I just did it twice in Stamina mode, and Metaknight claimed victory the second time in the same way he does in stock/percentage mode. Which brings me to the rule I forgot:

4) Test it in all ports.

Trivia: the +4% actually becomes -5 health in Stamina mode; this is likely because some damage deals unwhole amounts of damage (example: 4.5% damage) but the game will not round percentages up, meaning that if you have 4.5% damage, it will appear as 4 and not 5. Why this rounding pattern changes in Stamina mode is unclear, but whatev no one cares

Oh, and I don't need to run 240 tests on this to see that it is possible for the same type of victory to occur; I saw it happen, so it happens. Try it out for yourself: put Ganon in Port 4 and put MK in Port 1. Ganoncide a few times and I guarantee you it will eventually end in MK's victory.








It's funny because it's true

edit@Ganonsburg: I apologize - what is it that I haven't answered?

Well you're half right. In stamina the game ALWAYS ties but always give a verdict of winner and loser. Ganon gets the win if he does more damage to a character and vice versa when leading up to the Ganoncide.

 

[-Vocal-]

Well you're half right. In stamina the game ALWAYS ties but always give a verdict of winner and loser. Ganon gets the win if he does more damage to a character and vice versa when leading up to the Ganoncide.

No.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

*sigh*

Will you please just do what I just said? I'm not an idiot and I don't 100% claim things until I've seen evidence to back it up. PUT GANONDORF IN PORT 4 AND I GUARANTEE YOU THAT IT WILL EVENTUALLY HAPPEN - GANONDORF WILL DIE AND HIS OPPONENT WILL NOT.

I hate to be this forceful about something but you aren't listening to me at all. I test my stuff and it upsets me when other people make claims against my testing without even testing it themselves

 

[Ganonsburg]

edit@Ganonsburg: I apologize - what is it that I haven't answered?

Dude, I don't even know anymore. I'm too physically tired to come up with an argument, and too mentally tired of this debate to give a care. Now I'm just resorting to half-trolling until I energize enough to start making a good argument.

But it still doesn't change the fact that the BBR is cherrypicking.

Old guy = BBR
Young kid = BBR meatriders

 

[-Vocal-]

I understand your frustration and how that would lead you to trolling. However, nothing will change until you bring a solidly arguable reason to implement a suicide to the BBR.

 

[Ganonsburg]

I understand your frustration and how that would lead you to trolling. However, nothing will change until you bring a solidly arguable reason to implement a suicide to the BBR.

Except when we do, they just ignore it anyway and state the same crap they have been, even though their points are not logical and they miss the idea.

 

[-Vocal-]

Except when we do, they just ignore it anyway and state the same crap they have been, even though their points are not logical and they miss the idea.

>.>

No one misses any data. I have not read every BR response on the matter so I cannot speak for what they do, but I back every one of my posts with logic and data - I wouldn't feel so strongly on the matter otherwise.

It's not like I'm afraid of losing a game to Ganondorf through Ganoncide. The reason I'm pushing this so far is because I have logically thought long and hard about this (not to mention the hours I spent testing) and have come to the conclusion that a rule granting victory through Ganoncide is not warranted. Unless someone shows me that my logic is incorrect, this opinion is not going to change. I'm not going to act like I'm perfect and can't make mistakes, so I recognize that there is a possibility that I am wrong; however, I highly doubt this is the case.

 

[Terodactyl Yelnats]

No.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

*sigh*

Will you please just do what I just said? I'm not an idiot and I don't 100% claim things until I've seen evidence to back it up. PUT GANONDORF IN PORT 4 AND I GUARANTEE YOU THAT IT WILL EVENTUALLY HAPPEN - GANONDORF WILL DIE AND HIS OPPONENT WILL NOT.

I hate to be this forceful about something but you aren't listening to me at all. I test my stuff and it upsets me when other people make claims against my testing without even testing it themselves

I'm trying to convey the same message yet you're looking at it's base, recognizing that it's myself stating the same facts, then enforcing your tests onto my argument. I know that Ganondorf will die in port 4, you've said it multiple times. I'm trying to talk about Port 1. Ganondorf wins in port 1 which does not happen in stocks. I'm sorry for the confusion and maybe I could have said it better and more on point.

 

[-Vocal-]

I'm trying to convey the same message yet you're looking at it's base, recognizing that it's myself stating the same facts, then enforcing your tests onto my argument. I know that Ganondorf will die in port 4, you've said it multiple times. I'm trying to talk about Port 1. Ganondorf wins in port 1 which does not happen in stocks. I'm sorry for the confusion and maybe I could have said it better and more on point.

That is because in stocks, a concurrent death will lead to Sudden Death. However, if Ganondorf is in Port 1 and performs a Ganoncide during Sudden Death and the percentages are even or he has a percentage lead, he will win.

So there. The reason it doesn't happen in stocks is because concurrent death leads to Sudden Death; however, if you do it in Sudden Death or Stamina Mode, where concurrent death leads to a judgement of victory based upon percentage leads or initiator of a move, Ganon wins, under the right circumstances.

Are we on the same page now?

 

[Vermanubis]

That is because in stocks, a concurrent death will lead to Sudden Death. However, if Ganondorf is in Port 1 and performs a Ganoncide during Sudden Death and the percentages are even or he has a percentage lead, he will win.
So there. The reason it doesn't happen in stocks is because concurrent death leads to Sudden Death; however, if you do it in Sudden Death or Stamina Mode, where concurrent death leads to a judgement of victory based upon percentage leads or initiator of a move, Ganon wins, under the right circumstances.

Are we on the same page now?

 

[-Vocal-]

Har dee har har

Btw I never told you but your signature is pretty awesome :D

 

[Divilenta]

Verm has just won this thread.

 

[Dumbfire]

Har dee har har

Btw I never told you but your signature is pretty awesome :D

Verm can make a whole combo video with the **** he does.
The 0 - death on the Sheik was lmao

 

[B!squick]

I like how no one has said anything about my last post.

 

[-Vocal-]

Oh yea, how could I forget: I've heard several people mention this, and at one point during my testing I thought there may be some validity to it. (It could also possibly explain why victim victory occurs most often to small characters - smaller target = higher chance of proper pixel placement?) However, if this is the case, it is to minute a factor for me to test - when we start talking about things like a pixel's difference in height, we leave the area where I can reliably do anything about it

However, this would still fail to explain why victim victory occurs more often in Port 4 than in Port 1 :/

 

[lordhelmet]

You know what's lame?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfIIyvhEQy4&feature=player_embedded

This epic victory would be considered a "tie" by the BBR members and they would have to do a rematch

 

[-Vocal-]

You know what's lame?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfIIyvhEQy4&feature=player_embedded

This epic victory would be considered a "tie" by the BBR members and they would have to do a rematch

1) They wouldn't have to do anything because that's a friendly

2) Level of epicness is not a factor when creating a competitive ruleset

3) It's lame, but blame the game creators, not the BR.

They sure are fun to see, but they don't deserve a special rule.

 

[Divilenta]

1) They wouldn't have to do anything because that's a friendly

2) Level of epicness is not a factor when creating a competitive ruleset

3) It's lame, but blame the game creators, not the BR.

They sure are fun to see, but they don't deserve a special rule.

To hell with #3. I'll blame both. The game creators for leaving the move to be so flawed and the BR for not trying to BALANCE IT like they SHOULD. I thought that was the whole **** point of the back room...to create a ruleset that attempted to balance the otherwise uneven gameplay. But obviously they don't do that now do they...

 

[lordhelmet]

1) They wouldn't have to do anything because that's a friendly

Not the point.

2) Level of epicness is not a factor when creating a competitive ruleset

Also not the point.

3) It's lame, but blame the game creators, not the BR.

The game is already made, we can't change the fact that it's screwed up. But we can make a rule that fixes the problem.

 

[-Vocal-]

To hell with #3. I'll blame both. The game creators for leaving the move to be so flawed and the BR for not trying to BALANCE IT like they SHOULD. I thought that was the whole **** point of the back room...to create a ruleset that attempted to balance the otherwise uneven gameplay. But obviously they don't do that now do they...

Well, you could really hate the game creators for making Ganondorf flawed in general, but you're entirely wrong about the BR. Their goal is not to balance the game AT ALL. All they aim to do is remove things from the game in order to make it competitive, like removing unreasonably long potential game length by adding a timer or overly intrusive hazards by banning 75m. (Which hazards can be considered overly intrusive is definitely a topic of discussion, but I digress.) While doing this, they do not let themselves balance the game - this is the reason they don't have a LGL, which would be balancing the game by applying a nerf to Meta Knight. (He's stupid good, but they can't change that if they're going to remain true to the philosophy of not balancing the game. IDC is debatable in this department, but that falls into a grey area muddled with stalling, so it deserves a conversation of it's own.)

Tl;dr - they make the game competitive, not balance it.

@Helmet: 2 is most definitely a part of the point - you saying this is an "epic victory" doesn't change the fact that it isn't a win. We'd only be making it a win becaue of how "epic" it is. As for your response to 3, "fixing" it would be balancing the game, so just refer to my response above this.

 

[Divilenta]

Well, you could really hate the game creators for making Ganondorf flawed in general, but you're entirely wrong about the BR. Their goal is not to balance the game AT ALL. All they aim to do is remove things from the game in order to make it competitive, like removing unreasonably long potential game length by adding a timer or overly intrusive hazards by banning 75m. (Which hazards can be considered overly intrusive is definitely a topic of discussion, but I digress.) While doing this, they do not let themselves balance the game - this is the reason they don't have a LGL, which would be balancing the game by applying a nerf to Meta Knight. (He's stupid good, but they can't change that if they're going to remain true to the philosophy of not balancing the game. IDC is debatable in this department, but that falls into a grey area muddled with stalling, so it deserves a conversation of it's own.)

Tl;dr - they make the game competitive, not balance it.

If that's the case then I don't want to compete in a ruleset that gives a disadvantage to my character.

 

[lordhelmet]

Well, you could really hate the game creators for making Ganondorf flawed in general, but you're entirely wrong about the BR. Their goal is not to balance the game AT ALL. All they aim to do is remove things from the game in order to make it competitive, like removing unreasonably long potential game length by adding a timer or overly intrusive hazards by banning 75m. (Which hazards can be considered overly intrusive is definitely a topic of discussion, but I digress.) While doing this, they do not let themselves balance the game - this is the reason they don't have a LGL, which would be balancing the game by applying a nerf to Meta Knight. (He's stupid good, but they can't change that if they're going to remain true to the philosophy of not balancing the game. IDC is debatable in this department, but that falls into a grey area muddled with stalling, so it deserves a conversation of it's own.)

Tl;dr - they make the game competitive, not balance it.

That's the exact reason why no one appreciates the BBR and the Brawl Scene is dwindling

 

[-Vocal-]

If that's the case then I don't want to compete in a ruleset that gives a disadvantage to my character.

Excuse me - how is it giving a disadvantage? The game says Ganondorf goes to Sudden Death or loses (rarely victory). Saying he won would be giving him an advantage.

I fail to see how not giving him something he hasn't gotten is a disadvantage...

@Helmet: I respect your opinion.