Wario's Match-Ups!

[Zankoku]

If you're at under 100%, you should be able to survive Sheik's usmash simply by normal DIing diagonally down and to the side.

 

[xzx]

Yeah, (S)DI:ing her up-smash isn't that hard to do. If you want you can just spam the sticks diagonally downwards. And guys, more inputs! =P

xzx: 0
ScaryLB59: 0
TheReflexWonder: 0

 

[(S!C)]

i would also say, that this matchup is even

 

[xzx]

xzx: 0
ScaryLB59: 0
TheReflexWonder: 0
(S!C): 0

 

[LOE1]

idk, even or +1 would be fine with me. shiek isnt THAT bad really.

 

[xzx]

xzx: 0
ScaryLB59: 0
TheReflexWonder: 0
(S!C): 0
LOE1: 0/+1

 

[Lord Chair]

This is even.

 

[Waymas]

Yea this MU is even sheik can wall you pretty easy with fairs and bairs and a gr upsmash will kill you at around 110. But imo bite is really good in here and try to see the pattern of youre sheik opponent fair is algo really good

 

[xzx]

xzx: 0
ScaryLB59: 0
TheReflexWonder: 0
(S!C): 0
LOE1: 0/+1
Lord Chair: 0
Buff: 0


Okay, let's move on to Yoshi. As for Yoshi, I wanna know how many frames Wario has to escape the dreadly infinite and how this is affecting the MU/ratio (before I do a little write-up about this MU).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Personally I think this is a +1 MU for Yoshi.
But either a Wario that knows how to play with their tires or a camping Wario is still annoying to deal with if they avoid our constant barrage of Eggs since it's annoying to catch Wario for us, about the only reason I'd see it as even (or his favor) is my previous statements, being heavily stage dependant, and if we don't bother with the Infinite.

For Yoshi. Pivot grabbing since it messes with most of Wario's approaches, Egg toss or Bair constantly whenever you're in the air since it stops alot of your annoying moves like Nair or Dair, our Usmash beats your Dair too...
Egglay is decent when Wario tries to use Bite while we're offstage and recovering, of course we can just throw an egg instead but ledge camping for us is pretty good unless you guys run off and try a slight gimmick to throw us under the stage with your bite.
One thing though, Ftilt sometimes outprioritizes our Eggtoss aaaaaand... your Fsmash is still a problem for us of course.

Dunno about frames, but funny enough the infinite lasts long enough for us to run behind you to make the process start all over again. If we mess up you can just jump away/footstool us.
At the time (not sure if D3 only) but it cancelled out the old rule from the URC of Can't Do Standing Infinites.
We have an angled Fsmash on Wario which most Yoshi's don't use surprisingly enough but it's there. I'm sure you guys already know about the USmash, just felt like pointing out the FSmash part.

Overall, it's probably wise we don't depend too much on trying to grab you guys since you'll most likely adapt and start punishing us, and it's one of those matchups where whoever gets the lead will most likely win since they'll just start camping the other.
Most likely better to just grab you about 2-4 times (or even just once) to get the guaranteed U/Fsmash on you guys.

Also, which of Wario's moves does well against our Eggroll? Since Eggroll is an anti-air move, I'd find it being pretty decent in this MU. Or at least just hilarious to use against a Wario who doesn't know how to handle it.

 

[Iota]

Even match up IMO. Assuming egg roll is side-b then clap, bite, aerials oos, and waft all beat it. Will say more after school possibly.

 

[RaptorTEC]

Egg roll wouldn't be too important imo, Wario can easily react with his mobility or just dj. I also think it's +1 Yoshi. Wario has so much trouble approaching Yoshi. I'll write more after work.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

+1 Wario. It's boring as **** for both characters, since they both run into moves when attempting to move forward, and they're both difficult to pin down, but Wario has better mobility (not speed, but that's not by much) and deals more damage for the average exchange. The superior aerial mobility means that Wario has to commit to less in comparable situations, which is beneficial in such a battle of attrition, as this matchup often goes. Most strings can be avoided just by going to neutral position after getting hit--It's easy for both characters to get baited after they get hit, so going back to neutral after getting "caught" is often the best idea for both of them. After getting U-Smashed, DON'T move toward Yoshi--It will almost always just make things worse.

Yoshi is pretty susceptible to tire and bike hits, due to his somewhat-linear ground game, bad shield game, and how often you find yourself with a decent amount of space to yourself. At worst, it's easy to control space and pressure him with that stuff, even if you don't manage to hit him. Yoshi is also easier to edgeguard than vice-versa (mostly because Wario's recovery is stupidly good, rather than to suggest Yoshi has a bad one). Waft isn't much of a pain to charge to get because of how easy it is for the matchup to go into a stalemate. I think that Wario sets the pace a little better overall, and it's enough to edge it into +1 territory for him.

 

[Delta-cod]

Even.

The matchup is largely a battle of percentages, not stocks, lol. Whoever's behind tends to have his work cut out for him because neither character really likes to approach the other. While I think getting caught approaching overall is more dangerous for Wario, he still has better mobility to deal with our defensive game. He also has a solid comeback factor in Waft, which he'll be able to use pretty often in a set because the match goes so SLOWLY.

Yoshi doesn't necessarily struggle to approach Wario in that he'll be taking a lot of chip damage or whatever trying to get close. The problem is actually catching him with anything substantial. However, I don't think Yoshi gets punished as devastatingly for getting caught approaching than the other way around. The infinite (or grab release chains) is pretty powerful, and I can't imagine Yoshi eating anything huge out of a missed Bair or something besides like, an aerial/throw/Fsmash (maybe).

Edgeguarding is pretty irrelevant. I don't think Wario has enough long ranged aerials to really catch us while recovering, and we certainly don't have the aerials to deal with Wario's mobility while he's recovering, especially with good DI. Ledge trapping is another story, but again, I don't think either character really has a stronger edge trapping game than the other.

Neutral is soooooooo boring. The match resets so often and nothing really gets done. I don't think Wario's Bike/Tires are a major issue for Yoshi (he does well with items and the Bike is pretty unweildy, imo), so yeah.

 

[Iota]

Tires can be very very useful imo depending on the situation. Our options for punishing and frame locking you increase so that we can get an easier/guaranteed waft/f-smash instead of just the usual aerials/grab if you make a slight mistake on our shield. They also make dealing with your grab a lot easier since we can throw it at you if you whiff a pivot grab. Also bike throws can make your life on the edge marginally harder. I agree with pretty much everything else Delta said.

 

[Delta-cod]

To be perfectly fair, I've never played a Wario proficient with bike/tire play (or one that actually used them really), so I can't give an account based on experience for their effect.

I do know that if you had a tire in hand I'd be more cautious about certain things, like pivot grabs/approaches, but I don't think it has too large an effect outside of causing us to change up our already extremely cautious approach to the match up.

Bike has a pretty niche use, I'm getting from your post. If we hit an aerial bike with an egg, does it lose its hitbox and just fall? We can also just egg the bike to blow it up, I'd imagine. Picking up the bike while we're on the edge in the first place opens you up to get egged as well.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Tires aren't as useful for Yoshi compared to Wario and his setups for it. But our item play is pretty good still.

And yes delta, if the bike is in the air and we hit Wario it completely loses its hitbox.

 

[Iota]

If you egg a thrown bike it loses all it's horizontal momentum, but it doesn't lose it's hitbox until it stops bouncing. It has a good use for frame locking you when you're getting to the ledge from offstage and such. Wario shouldn't be picking it up when you're free to just egg toss us.

 

[Sinister Slush]

Weird, I've been hit by it while it was in the air. Never got anything from it. Oh well.

 

[Delta-cod]

If you egg a thrown bike it loses all it's horizontal momentum, but it doesn't lose it's hitbox until it stops bouncing. It has a good use for frame locking you when you're getting to the ledge from offstage and such. Wario shouldn't be picking it up when you're free to just egg toss us.

Thought so.

Yoshi's recovery is pretty flexible though. We should just be able to throw eggs to cover our approach to the ledge regardless. Besides, you holding the bike near the ledge is kinda telegraphed.

 

[Iota]

If we're worried about you just egging the bike we can try grabbing the ledge so that it'll fall on top of you anyway unless you air dodge.

If you can just air dodge onto the stage to avoid the bike we can throw it in another way so we can pressure you offstage while the bike is making landing on the stage a somewhat more dangerous option.

There's a good chance we'll just fail no matter what, but a lot of what either character does in this match up is position resets.

Yoshi can't wall us on the ledge effectively from what I know so it wouldn't be too bad if we ended up with you on the stage and with us on the ledge.

 

[Delta-cod]

I'm not gonna talk about those setups anymore, though. We're reaching Super Theorycraft Bros level now. =P

Yoshi doesn't really wall you on the ledge effectively, but it does always suck to give up all the stage control. Either way, I don't think it'd end up being that big a deal.

 

[Croi]

I don't really have anything to add, but it feels even to me.

 

[xzx]

Yeah, this MU feels even. Try to avoid Yoshi's attempts to grab you. However, if you still get grabbed, it will hurt you in either an infinite or an up-angled f-smash/up-air/up-smash/another attack that Yoshi can use after a grab-release. Yoshi is a little faster in the air than Wario, and his general reach is absolutely okay, meaning Yoshi don't have much trouble approaching Wario. Wario is also good at approaching if he only is careful and smart. Yoshi's bair can wall us pretty well but just be patient in this MU and wait for good opportunities to strike. Bite and the tires/the bike are really good tools to use for edge guarding and for general stage control/shield pressure. The rule number one in this MU is to NEVER EVER land near Yoshi. Just don't do it. It will hurt BAD. BAAAAD!

Both have good tools against each other but I just feel that Yoshi has an slight advantage because of the infinite. This can be in Yoshi's favour but as long as the Wario is patient and careful everything will be fine. Even, 0.

Sinister Slush: -1
Iota: 0
RaptorTEC: -1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Delta-cod: 0
Croi: 0
xzx: 0

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Whatever, dudes. Just B-Air and keep moving away. Use bike/tire stuff once Yoshi commits to doing the same. You'll be slightly better than okay.

 

[LOE1]

i actually agree with reflex for this one. +1 wario. just go to sv to avoid the infinate and space them aerials well. eggs can be a pain, and make you approach, but wario's mobility is2strong.

if i see a yoshi campin da ledge with eggs, just run to the far end of the stage and force em to come up. not a big deal. also, yoshi cant really kill if his usmash is stale. his up-air isnt too hard to dodge, and fsmash takes a fairly good read. nair is normally stale as well. just use the air to your advantage, ban FD, not too much of a problem.

also also, gimping yoshi isnt that hard imo. we could just footstool . or go for a bite. +1 wario for me

 

[~Firefly~]

also also, gimping yoshi isnt that hard imo. we could just footstool . or go for a bite. +1 wario for me

This tells me that you don't have that much experience against good Yoshis; we really shouldn't be getting gimped by footstools, even against Wario's aerial mobility. And yes, KOing can be hard for both sides in this MU, but we can KO you off a grab with either Uair for vertical KOs or Fsmash for horizontal. I use Usmashes for damage when not in KO %s (Usmash and Fsmash both deal 16% when fresh IIRC, making them Yoshi's most damaging options out of grab release), so both those KO options should be fairly fresh when the time comes to finish the stock...and even if they aren't, we can just pummel a few times and regrab to freshen them up and tack on a bit of extra damage while we're at it. (this is the best part about having the infinite IMO) We can also regrab with pivot grab, which is handy if we get a grab facing away from the closest blast zone since it allows us to KO with Fsmash much earlier than we could have if we didn't have that regrab.

For stages, we'd probably want to strike SV, because the platform pretty much invalidates our ability to get KOs off of grabs, which is obviously kind of important in this MU. We might even ban it depending on the stagelist (probably not if RC/Brinstar are legal), but regardless, don't expect that platform to help you out unless it's on your counterpick. I usually end up taking Wario to BF, since you'll most likely be banning FD and BF has no moving parts to interfere with grabs.

This MU has always felt like whoever plays better will win to me, which is why I'm inclined to say this is even, but I can see where Reflex is coming from in that Wario does have better damage output and, of course, that waft can always be a game-changer. I don't necessarily agree that tires are particularly effective against Yoshi; we do have DR for catching/maneuvering around tires (though admittedly, most Yoshis don't make much use of this), and we can still throw tires out of shield, use DJC throws, and if we want to just get rid of an active tire, most of our moveset clashes with them (be careful with this though; a good Wario will sometimes use tires as bait to get you to commit to something to get rid of them/pick them up). I do think that a lot of people underestimate Wario's tire game though.

If you want a ratio from me, I'd say 0. I do think Wario probably has a slight edge at high levels of play, but to me, this MU is ultimately a test of patience that really can go either way.

 

[xzx]

Sinister Slush: -1
Iota: 0
RaptorTEC: -1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Delta-cod: 0
Croi: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: +1
~Firefly~: 0

 

[Iota]

I agree with Firefly. Realsitically you shouldn't be gimping Yoshi. Yoshi has strong options for avoiding any attempt at gimping we try with his super armor DJ, air dodge, and aerials.

What exactly does DR do for Yoshi in this MU. I'd definitely become more cautious with throwing tires at you if you're in a neutral position (something that Wario's shouldn't be doing much anyway), other than that though what are the applications of it?

 

[LOE1]

yea, i dont have THAT much yoshi experience. ive only really played 1 decent offline yoshi, and i havent played him in like 6 months lol.

also, i see where your comming from with the footstool not being a good option, but i still think bite is a good one since yoshi cant super armor dat. idk, mabey just mu inexp.

also also, wario has an easier time killing yoshi for me. yoshi pretty much needs a grab to kill, unless they make a good read. wario has all them kill options, fairly easier to hit than yoshi's kill options.

 

[~Firefly~]

What exactly does DR do for Yoshi in this MU. I'd definitely become more cautious with throwing tires at you if you're in a neutral position (something that Wario's shouldn't be doing much anyway), other than that though what are the applications of it?

DR is basically a pseudo-wavedash, allowing up to cancel our running animation at any time to perform any action we want. It allows us to catch tires in mid-dash without leaving the ground, which is nice, but it can also be used to try and bait out reactions. For example, if you're about to land and we dash towards you, you might think we're trying to dash grab your landing. You might double jump to avoid this, but we can DR instead, resulting in us having closed in on you in a standing position, waiting to see how you're going to land. It also allows us to do stuff like Dtilt out of a dash, which is great for catching landings.

As I said, not a whole lot of Yoshis use much DR, and I don't use it too much in the MU myself, so I'm kinda making stuff up as I go. =p

also, i see where your comming from with the footstool not being a good option, but i still think bite is a good one since yoshi cant super armor dat. idk, mabey just mu inexp.

also also, wario has an easier time killing yoshi for me. yoshi pretty much needs a grab to kill, unless they make a good read. wario has all them kill options, fairly easier to hit than yoshi's kill options.

I get gimped by bites about as often as I get gimped by footstools. Yoshi can't super armor footstools either, but we still have plenty of ways to get around them.

Also, keep in mind that Yoshi can make himself pretty hard to hit too. =p Generally, Wario has to get a read to finish the stock just like Yoshi does.

 

[(S!C)]

its even (**** you, stupid yoshi finfinite <.<)

 

[Delta-cod]

also also, wario has an easier time killing yoshi for me. yoshi pretty much needs a grab to kill, unless they make a good read. wario has all them kill options, fairly easier to hit than yoshi's kill options.

Keep in mind that in order for you to kill us, you need to put yourself into the pivot grab danger zone, which actually guarantees a kill for us in most cases.

 

[LOE1]

ok ok i get it. fine, even. whatever. dont have much exp. but ok, even

guess the yoshi's know more about the mu anyway

 

[xzx]

Sinister Slush: -1
Iota: 0
RaptorTEC: -1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Delta-cod: 0
Croi: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: 0
~Firefly~: 0
(S!C): 0

(S!C) and LOE1, you're both awesome with your latest posts! xD <3

 

[Lukingordex]

Just giving my humble opinion:

even.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yoshi can't turn back as easily once he commits to an offensive option, making him easier to punish. That means we tend to have more control in the neutral position. Talking about how Wario has to put himself in KO position to get a KO as if it's some sort of Yoshi advantage is silly when the same can be said for Yoshi, except Waft is a safe KO option.

Again, it's barely a +1, but the extra mobility lets us control space better, and neither player will be going for KOs anyway except for the occasional Waft from Wario or U-Smash/shorthop U-Air from Yoshi, and it's not hard to trap Yoshi into damage with a tire if he's not playing a very conservative camping game (moreso than normal, even).

 

[waldorf2007]

i find this same as reflex, barely +1. eggs don't do much of anything in my experience, because of our superior air mobility. we just jump away from the 4 free eggs yoshi gets on the edge. the grab release stuf is wonky but cps and other things make this less useful. my main problem with the matchup is falling in to yoshi, reaction up smash and up tilt or even up air beat out dair. I mostly just sit and wait for neutral B or grab/pivot grab then punish if possible, all while waiting for an opportunity to get tires out.

 

[xzx]

Sinister Slush: -1
Iota: 0
RaptorTEC: -1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Delta-cod: 0
Croi: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: 0
~Firefly~: 0
(S!C): 0
Lukinhasss: 0
waldorf2007: +1

Discussion is going on for a brief period of time (before we switch character).

 

[Sinister Slush]

Just to mention, it's 5 eggs we can throw.
And if we feel like being risky.... DJ immediately after letting go of the ledge and eggtoss again... infinite breakfast.