Wario's Match-Ups!

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi can't turn back as easily once he commits to an offensive option, making him easier to punish. That means we tend to have more control in the neutral position. Talking about how Wario has to put himself in KO position to get a KO as if it's some sort of Yoshi advantage is silly when the same can be said for Yoshi, except Waft is a safe KO option.

Again, it's barely a +1, but the extra mobility lets us control space better, and neither player will be going for KOs anyway except for the occasional Waft from Wario or U-Smash/shorthop U-Air from Yoshi, and it's not hard to trap Yoshi into damage with a tire if he's not playing a very conservative camping game (moreso than normal, even).

Why do you not count pivot grab > GR > Usmash/Uair/Fsmash for kills? These aren't particularly risky because they all come from a relatively safe defensive option, which outranges your everything.

I don't think Wario's control in neutral is particularly powerful. I've never had a problem dealing with regaining space/crossing up if I'm finding myself too close to the ledge. We don't need too much space anyways. I'd rather not be in a position to deal with Wario's more powerful crossup game by trying too hard to keep myself in the middle.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Because that's not going for a KO, that's hoping the opponent overextends himself. Wario is putting himself in that position, rather than Yoshi being proactive about a KO.

I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but it would be disingenuous to say that Yoshi's pivot grab in a neutral-ish position is an actively offensive option. Also, each missed pivot grab is losing some stage control, which can be a problem after a while.

Wario doesn't have a very useful cross-up game against a good Yoshi to begin with, due to things like U-Smash, pivot grab, and large aerials.

 

[Delta-cod]

Fair enough on all counts.

Edit: I feel like I should add, though, that I believe Yoshi is more successful in killing Wario while playing defensively because of Pivot Grab > Kill. I don't think Wario is as capable of killing Yoshi while playing defensively, and he can't really force an approach unless he has a stock lead. If Yoshi picks appropriate times to go for a kill, it's pretty difficult to actually be punished by anything that should kill.

 

[Lord Chair]

optimally this MU goes to time, anyway

 

[Iota]

That's how a lot of our evenish MUs go optimally. Fortunately most players can't play vs Wario optimally enough so that we're forced to time them out.

 

[DMG]

You Wario poons won't go that far for a timeout to begin with. I've seen the approaching, the slanderous approaching.

 

[Iota]

I've timed out people plenty of times tyvm. It just doesn't happen too often cause they die/kill themselves before the timer runs out :<

 

[PMC66]

i think 0 or +1 for Yoshi it depends on the stage list, eggs do 8% damage and i know it's hard to hit wario with them if he gets hit by one he'll eventually have to try for an aproach or risk being timed out also it can be hard to get bike out in the mu, if you've got tyres they're really good vs Yoshi but it can be difficult to get them out.

I agree wario has a better off stage game in this mu but Wario has a slightly harder time aproaching, Yoshi camps better and he's got an infinite and solid air release options which allow him to kill and give him more rewards on stage. I think on most stages yoshi has a slight edge except for Battlefield i think Wario definetly has a slight advantage, SV i'd say even but on other stages like PS1, Yoshi's island, FD it's in Yoshi's favor.

Feels stage dependent more than anything, in the days of RC and brinstar being legal i'd say it was stone cold even but with stage lists getting narrower and the loss of those two stages i think Yoshi has the advantage.

 

[Iota]

If Brinstar and RC were legal more often then I'd definitely agree with Reflex about it being +1 Wario. Yoshi's camp game is not much better than Wario's. Both characters have difficulty coming back when the other player gets a solid percent or stock lead. The bike is never hard to get out, it's making use of it that's difficult. It's not too hard to make use of it/break it as long as we have stage control/good amount of breathing room

 

[Delta-cod]

Ehhh, I'm not too familiar with Wario's shenanigans on Brinstar, but it's not a terrible stage for Yoshi in the slightest. We can still infinite you there, and our ground game isn't entirely null. The lack of space can kinda hurt, but we still win head to head in the air, so it's possible that it could go both ways since you'd also have less space to weave.

But I've never had to play a Wario on Brinstar anyways.

 

[Iota]

Both characters have a lot of dumb gimmicks probably. I would think the little tentacle thingys with hurtboxs near the ledges would hurt your ledge camping game. How does Yoshi fair when dealing with the acid?

 

[Delta-cod]

Yoshi has some slope gimmicks with Down B. He doesn't really benefit from extended hitboxes, imo.

The tentacles by the ledges really suck for our ledge game, yeah. But being able to come up through the floor kinda remedies that.

Yoshi's ability to deal with the acid is kinda MU dependent. When we're forced to the top platform, things get a little dicey since we don't really have hitboxes or anything to keep control of a small place really well. It's probably possible for us to jump off the platform and stall out with eggs + DJ, though. Otherwise, the acid isn't too big a deal.

 

[Iota]

I don't think either character wants to be on the top plat. Yoshi probably wins a head on confrontation between the two of them on the top plat. Yoshi's slope gimmicks are really fun on this stage lol. I don't think they'll really do anything game changing for the MU though.

 

[Delta-cod]

Slope gimmicks aren't ever really game changing, lol. They're super gimmicky and can catch people on occasion, but they don't really do much... Landing with Down B on slopes can be helpful though.

I don't know about Yoshi winning the head on confrontation on the top platform. Wario can be a lot trickier up there than Yoshi can. Having a viable shield also helps considerably, since pivot grabbing up there is kinda hard due to there being really little space.

 

[Attila the Hun]

Both characters have a lot of dumb gimmicks probably. I would think the little tentacle thingys with hurtboxs near the ledges would hurt your ledge camping game. How does Yoshi fair when dealing with the acid?

"Do you know what happens to a dinosaur when it's touched by acid? ...The same thing that happens to everything else."

 

[Iota]

I don't get it.

 

[Attila the Hun]

The first X Men movie. </3

 

[Iota]

It has been years since I watched that movie.

 

[DMG]

I like to run away.

 

[~Firefly~]

"Do you know what happens to a dinosaur when it's touched by acid? ...The same thing that happens to everything else."

Oh you~

 

[Attila the Hun]

Oh you~

Seemed appropriate.

Noyooouuuuuuuu<3333333

 

[xzx]

Sinister Slush: -1
Iota: 0
RaptorTEC: -1
TheReflexWonder: +1
Delta-cod: 0
Croi: 0
xzx: 0
LOE1: 0
~Firefly~: 0
(S!C): 0
Lukinhasss: 0
waldorf2007: +1
PMC66: (0/)-1


Okay, let's move on to Ness.

 

[Iota]

Don't really know much about this match up. Probably around +1/+2

Ness fair walls us out fairly well; his uair is good for juggling us; his bair can kill fairly well when fresh and his nair can be a pain in the *** for us if we misspace something on his shield.

We get GR to f-smash. If he air releases we can fair him. Be VERY careful when gimping him since his PKT2 can kill very early if we don't get there in time.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Flame Hyenard]

I don't think Ness can use the GR on Wario, as his grab holds the anti-hero too low on the ground. I haven't tested much however, so anyone else can confirm / deny this theory. I'd say +1 for Wario, but don't count on me too much, since I'm not that experienced in the Ness/Wario MU (I prefer to use Falcon against him)

 

[Iota]

Neither of the earthbound characters can air release Wario unless he mashes.

 

[Kuro~]

Seibrik/Shaky could probz elaborate on this better than anyone.

 

[Nido]

Fair is our best friend in the MU and PKT1 off the stage is easily beaten by most of your aerials. Both of us aren't the easiest to grab so there's less chance of a Bthrow kill, tyres help us land Dairs off stage which is situational but your stock is gone if we get it, your Uair is SO annoying to deal with we have no answer to it above you, our Uair does similarly to yours but you can move out of the way more easily, yeah our Nair is a beast OoS. On the topic of gimping, we can sort of gimp you with Dair but no good Wario will fall for it and if we're far out enough tanking the PKT2 can win you the match because it shortens our distance which has happened to me once in a tourney set against a MK.

I say keep it at +1 your favour.

 

[pidgezero_one]

air release to dair on wario is guaranteed on ledges (I THINK)

might be ness' only advantage

hope that helps, i'm useless at this game

 

[Croi]

Ness is ridic easy to gimp. Just bike at him. Like, you don't have to crash it, pick it up, and chuck it at him - the bike doesn't need a hitbox, or to hit Ness directly. If he tries to use PKT, the bike will absorb the bolt. If he doesn't, then he hugely risks getting ledgegrabbed.

+1.5

 

[Nido]

Seriously? +1.5 because you can gimp us easily? Pit does a better job of gimping us and that's +1 his favour.

But if by +1.5 you meant a more difficult +1 I'd agree.

 

[DMG]

I don't bother gimping Ness usually. I just abuse him onstage by grabbing him and getting flagged on the child predator list

 

[Nido]

I don't bother gimping Ness usually. I just abuse him onstage by grabbing him and getting flagged on the child predator list

^ My new sig

 

[Tesh]

Ness isn't that easy to gimp. Very good aerials + a massive double jump shouldn't be underrated. If you can get him offstage in a really bad position and force a low pkt2 then yea u can do silly stuff like bike into it so he goes nowhere, but its not like he is free to be put into that position. Most of the time you will be sending him offstage with strong fairs or GR to Fsmash and those wont put him super low if he DIed properly.

 

[DMG]

It's just annoying dealing with Fair as he comes back, and I feel like besides Waft all we would get is a Fair poke or something measely. Meanwhile he still recovers afterwards unless you intercept. I'd rather try to grab the edge and get something invincible to deal with it, or even willingly let him grab the edge and then figure out a way to get back onto the stage.

However, what you can do that is very funny is ride your bike in the air, jumping off and letting it fall near him. You'd have to space and time it, but it is very silly. Can block PKT and will count as a hit for PKT2 to shorten his distance.

 

[Jamwa]

No Ness should be getting gimped by Wario, easily avoidable with our DJ and the option to Fair, Nair or Air Dodge.
Ness can also avoid the GR > Fsmash by camping near the ledge (the grab release will just drop Ness down off the ledge), and although it does force Ness into an awkward position, he has sufficient spacing options.

I would say +1 in Wario's favour, this MU is nothing tricky for Ness, and just requires some smart positioning and playing defensive to avoid gimmicks. Wario does however have an advantage with his waft for early kills or gaining a percentage lead, and of course he is better at stringing attacks when compared to Ness. Pretty sure Ness could kill earlier though with some lucky PKT2 mind games

 

[Luco]

I dunno, wario with a tyre and amazing timing would make me afraid of using PKT. However, while I don't know a lot on the specifics of the match-up, I could see this as a -1. Both chars have options against each other but I think wario has it slightly easier on recovery. Other aspects of the match-up i'd be looking at a better Ness to discuss. =)

 

[R e d X]

Matchup is a solid -1 for Ness imo. Don;t have much time atm, but off the top of my head, our Fair is very good as a spacing tool, and we have enough reliable kill/juggle options that Wario doesn't live forever and his stocks don't drag out as much as they can with other characters. He can GR -> F-smash us, but we can AR -> Spike him (though only if we grab him over the ledge. Unsure if this is DI-able towards the stage enough to be tech-able). Unsure of Wario's AR options on Ness, though I could see Fair or Uair working, though I haven't tested this. All in all, Wario's killing power is more potent (we're lighter, his GR followups are more reliable, and gimmciks like wafting us while we attempt to recover can be dangerous), I find his overall air game slightly stronger relative to ours in the matchup and his recovery is better. Defs not an overly bad MU for Ness, nothing terribly overwhelming about it, Wario is just more potent in his strengths than Ness is in his.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's totally DI-able toward the stage enough to land on the stage and/or. Besides, how would Ness have the opportunity to grab us that close to the edge? Being able to running grab us at the edge of the stage (and not getting more than a strong aerial out of it) pales in comparison to a grab-release from anywhere.

 

[xzx]

I would say that Wario's best tool in this MU is to gimp Ness with the bike. Wario can either throw it directly at Ness, making him "sink", or the bike can absorb his PKT1. Wario can also ride the bike and jump it off, meaning that it can potentially absorb the PKT1, or shorten his PKT2. Also Wario's tires can erase Ness's PKT1, along with some aerials, but trying to erase PKT1 with an aerial is much more risky, since Ness PKT2 can KO us. I find it much better to time in the bike. Also, having a tire in hand while riding the bike is a ridiculous gimping option.

Ness can also gimp is with dair/nair if we recover too low (i.e if Ness grabs us near the edge and dair us. I know this is DIable and techable...). But Wario should never be gimped more than what Ness should be gimped anyway. Ness has strong aerial tools against Wario in both nair ("get the heck of"-move) and fair (zoning/spacing/walling move). Ness has nice Out of shield options. Both have non-threatening range (with the exception of Ness's fair) and both have good aerial game, but Wario's is much better. Stating the obvious, Ness's trapping move PK fire can be run over by the bike. Wario's grab-release to f-smash also hurts Ness a lot, since it does great damage and can KO at around 100% when fresh.

All in all, I feel that this MU is "nothing special". Both have nifty tools but Wario definetily has the advantage, but it's not THAT big though. +1 for Wario.

Iota: +1/+2
Flame Hyenard: +1
Nido: +1
Croi: +1/+2
Jamwa: +1
Luco: +1
R e d X: +1
xzx: +1

 

[Flame Hyenard]

What about the stage options ? What stages are good and bad for each character ?

On Ness's side, Battlefield is a good stage (at least from what I've played). Lylat Cruise however is much trickier (again, according to me). I don't know much about Wario's side though.