Wario's Match-Ups!

[Micaelis]

MK vs Diddy is definitely a +1 for Wario. I have a lot of experience playing good Diddy's like Player-1 and GDX with Wario. Pretty much everything Reflex said are the main points plus the added addition of our gimping ability on Diddy with proper Bike and Fair usage.

Also as a small side note, since I showed up late, the MK MU is around -1.5 at a high level play in my opinion. Closer to -2 on a perfect level of play, closer to -1 on average. MK just can't afford to make as many mistakes as we can. But doesn't mean he has to make them... just watch top MKs play. So efficient and smart.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

-3 is 70/30. That's PT/Marth status.

-1 is "slight disadvantage." Slight trouble, but, hardly something to really worry about running into purely based on character matchup.
-2 is "moderate disadvantage." This is where you're gonna have to start outplaying people more than a fair amount in order to make it work consistently, and something you should fear in tournaments, should you play a person that knows what he's doing. This is worth getting a secondary over.
-3 is "severe disadvantage." You shouldn't win this unless the opponent has no idea what he's doing in the matchup, if you're just much, much, smarter than the opponent, or both.
-4 is "basically impossible." If the opponent has a basic understanding of how to play the character at all, you shouldn't be able to win.

 

[Pwneroni]

-1.5 against MK seems a bit better. Reflex's explanation of the ratios, it's definitely true that you have to outplay MK by a fair amount to win. However, I don't think it's bad enough to warrant a secondary (especially with the use of tires in the mix).

 

[TheReflexWonder]

When you get to high-level play, it becomes very difficult/unlikely that you can outplay other people by that much, because there's only so much to trip them up over, and MK is the king of being able to cover his mistakes.

 

[Cassio]

MK vs Diddy is definitely a +1 for Wario.

I agree

 

[TheReflexWonder]

To each his own. Think what you want. In the meantime, I'll be waiting for you guys to give the advice that allows me to see those numbers play out against top-level Meta Knight players. I've tried an awful lot and only sound cynical out of a good amount of experience, but I'm always open to potential knowledge.

 

[Cassio]

Re-read what was quoted

I can't say much about the MU personally, but I have heard that both tyrant and anti have top quality warios by testimony and have occasionally preferred to use them over the ditto. Not to say that anyone is right or wrong, but if it hasnt occured already it may be worth contacting them to get some opinions and information perhaps? I imagine having used both characters proficiently theyd have some great insights.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Re-read what was quoted

I was a fool.

 

[Tesh]

When I read that, I imagined Wario sitting on a throne watching MK and Diddy fight for his amusement.

 

[Pwneroni]

Damn I really want to play against some top level MKs now. Then I could show how tires can change the matchup for the better! Who is **** at MK and lives near Oregon? xD d'oh! I've beaten Tearbear and Nerd in tournament when they played MK, but I don't think they qualify as "top level", maybe just "high level".

As for Diddy Kong, hmmmm yeah I think it's either even or a little in Wario's favor. Diddy can do some seriously wicked stuff to Wario. Observe the first stock of me vs Felix.... OWCH.

If Wario plays aggro against Diddy, he's really in for some hurt. Diddy's Oos options paired with bananas really can shut down Wario's approaches. Item utilization is really important in this matchup, if not necessary. I feel that tires would help a lot, because of the range and options they open up for Wario. However, I have not tested this against any serious Diddy Kongs, so this is pure speculation at this point.

What happens if a tire and a banana meet in midair? Do they just pass through each other, or does the banana destroy the tire? I have a feeling that they pass through, but I don't know for sure.

 

[Player-1]

I think it's a -1, but 55-45. Me and Reflex just played 4 sets with all of the videos at this past tournament >.>. It really depends on the stage also if it's 55-45, or 50-50. I think overall with all of the CP options you guys have and if we only have one ban then it's definitely a -1. I think you're overrating tires a bit, pwneroni, they can definitely help you, but Diddy can take control of them also if you're not careful with them. Diddy's item control and frame data for items is better than Wario's so it's not too hard for us to use them. Wario can just pretty much play a poke game against Diddy and just weave in and out of his 'zone' until the Diddy tries to actually doing something against it where Wario can punish and just does that until he gets a waft.

We do have some air release stuff, but we can't force an air release unless we're over the edge which easier to get than some characters since we can banana lock you to the edge. We can do any aerial we want to you, and yeah we can diddy hump you guys. Usually we can follow that up with a footstool, but wario's aerial mobility is too good where if he just holds away from the stage we can't get it. Then just bike back up (NOT into it, pwneroni >.>). I'll usually just do our attack option out of it which is 15%.

Wario has some nice gimping stuff on Diddy also. Nair/fair are your best aerials, fart is good too, it's kind of a guessing game though depending on if/how long we stall our barrels before trying to get back to the edge.

Also, for stages I think our best ones is FD (obv, banana lock to the edge > spike or something too good), SV, YI, and Halberd. YI and Halberd the giant middle platform hurts your approaching and poke game and allows us to camp with bananas and stuff. Halberd also helps us get kills on you guys since you're so heavy. Both stages have some small slopes that we can get some air releases off of, although I think the halberd slopes are big enough that they hurt us more than hurt you, YI it doesn't affect us as much. The 2nd part of Halberd if very big with no slopes, but still has the giant middle platform so that helps us a lot.

so ya -1 your favor. *waits for vids from past weekend*

 

[BPx]

I've talked to m2k and vinnie about the mk/wario mu and both have said that wario does pretty well... m2k said ally/tyrants wario win about 30% of the time against his mk, and ally went wario against otori @apex i believe

 

[Labernash]

Played some matches against Diddys yesterday. I reconfirmed my opinion of an even MU. I lost pretty hard to one, because I kept trying to glide toss. That lag got me killed a lot. Whenever I would D-throw naners mid-air, it would lead into a lot more. Need to work on that MU so bad.

 

[xzx]

Labernash: 0
Pwneroni: +1
BPx: +1
xzx: 0
TheReflexWonder: +1
Xatic: 0
Player-1: +1

@Player-1: Okay changed! =P

 

[Player-1]

wario beats diddy

 

[TheReflexWonder]

It's often better to just keep bananas as far away from him as possible. Don't throw it at him unless it's in a position where he's landing or something.

Also, don't keep your bike on the stage; he can make an impenetrable wall by continuously throwing the bananas at the bike, and when he breaks it, he has control over the space, and, therefore, the tires.

 

[BPx]

wario beats diddy

what he said

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I should have the videos up by tomorrow.

 

[Pwneroni]

Oh damn, that sounds intense! An impenetrable wall of bananas?? :O Haha I wonder if you could gulp them down at the same time if that's happening xD

Okay so yeah, I played against a really freaking good MK the other day. His name is Viviff T. Great. His spacing and predicting was so incredibly good that I only beat him like 1 time out of 10. If the MK is reallllly good and patient, it can be very rough.

However.

Tires DO make a difference! Some of the only shining moments of those matches for Wario was when he had a tire in his grip. Not only does it increase his range, but it gives him added options when recovering! Ain't it a B%%^(#*$ when you're above MK and he is slicing and dicing you with Uairs? If you have a tire in your hand, your options are multiplied! Not only can you throw or z drop the tire to hit MK away, but you can airdodge drop the tire and maybe score a midair hit! BAM! POW right in the kisser!

Waiting for this matches of Reflex vs P1! Sounds like an intense set, 2 really good players going at it!

 

[Eggz]

I'm sorry for Eggz is not solid.

I have never heard of Viviff.

edit: and hell, not even your matches against Eggz are proving anything about the value of bike/tires in the MK matchup, you get gimped over and over and he gets in control of the tires about as often if not more often than you

i ****

f u

 

[xzx]

So, are we done discussing Diddy Kong or do you still want to discuss the MU? It doesn't matter for me. (The next MU we will be discussing is Snake.)

Labernash: 0
Pwneroni: +1
BPx: +1
xzx: 0
TheReflexWonder: +1
Xatic: 0
Player-1: +1

 

[Waymas]

imo this matchup is in wario advantage cause of early killing power . Keep in mind for this matchup you need to learn how to use items so you can use nanas against diddys or u can eat em if u prefer that. i suggest u smash di all the time his fsmash

dont get cocky cause diddy can camp you really good but we have killing power and he has a hard time against wario.

+1 wario

 

[xzx]

Labernash: 0
Pwneroni: +1
BPx: +1
xzx: 0
TheReflexWonder: +1
Xatic: 0
Player-1: +1
Buff: +1

Sum: +1

Are we ready to move on to Snake?

 

[One-Up]

Wait before we move on... i found something intresting about Diddy's peanuts. You can nair the peanuts and eat them. i did not know you could do that. Have any of you guys done that or know u could do that??

P.S- I have video of it... should i upload it?

 

[Labernash]

Wait before we move on... i found something intresting about Diddy's peanuts. You can nair the peanuts and eat them. i did not know you could do that. Have any of you guys done that or know u could do that??

P.S- I have video of it... should i upload it?

Well, iirc, some peanuts can be picked up like the Food item and heal like 1%. I had thought that was only after Diddy's Final Smash, maybe now. It sounds like you grabed the peanut with the item grab properties of the N-Air. Not sure though.



So, are we only discussing numbers, or are we discussing how to play the MU's as well? Diddy stumps me, and I'm not sure how to play others either.

 

[xzx]

Labernash, we are discussing everything about the MU, not just numbers. We can continuing discussing the Diddy Kong MU a little more before we move on to Snake.

I must say that I don't have much Diddy Kong experience, I must go practice it. But I find the bananas really annoying (duh!). What are you doing with the bananas? Do you ignore them, eat them, try to catch them? etc etc... What do you do? Me, I try to catch them and throw them upwards/at Diddy Kong. But sometimes I just ignore them... any advice of what I could do? n_n

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Labernash, we are discussing everything about the MU, not just numbers. We can continuing discussing the Diddy Kong MU a little more before we move on to Snake.

I must say that I don't have much Diddy Kong experience, I must go practice it. But I find the bananas really annoying (duh!). What are you doing with the bananas? Do you ignore them, eat them, try to catch them? etc etc... What do you do? Me, I try to catch them and throw them upwards/at Diddy Kong. But sometimes I just ignore them... any advice of what I could do? n_n

Don't even think about throwing a banana at Diddy unless he doesn't have a banana himself. He's too dangerous/safe with instant throwing if he has another banana to catch your landing. Just throw it somewhere that keeps the banana on-screen and away from Diddy's current position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0Hj0KNPQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhTqHHYpTAg

Maybe this will help.

 

[One-Up]

Ok so i uploaded the video of the peanuts... after looking over the footage i found out that i actually claped the peanut. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMiccDsJlnc&feature=youtu.be

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Peanuts are destroyed by any attack. For all it's worth, you can also catch peanuts and throw them back for an attempt at 5%.

 

[Tesh]

Kind of crazy that peanuts do so much damage, considering the super low hitstun and knockback and firing rate. It just doesn't look like a 5% attack.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Kind of crazy that peanuts do so much damage, considering the super low hitstun and knockback and firing rate. It just doesn't look like a 5% attack.

I think the minimum-speed Popgun shot does less than that, but, I'm not sure. I just know it does 5% when we throw it. I imagine its damage is based off of speed, like our bike ride and Yoshi's Forward-B.

 

[Player-1]

That's how bananas work, charged peanuts do a lot more damage than an uncharged one and those move faster also.

 

[xzx]

Don't even think about throwing a banana at Diddy unless he doesn't have a banana himself. He's too dangerous/safe with instant throwing if he has another banana to catch your landing. Just throw it somewhere that keeps the banana on-screen and away from Diddy's current position.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i0Hj0KNPQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhTqHHYpTAg

Maybe this will help.

Okay, thanks for the tip! =)

 

[Croi]

I heard the BBR is considering making Marth/Wario only -1 for us, confirm/deny?

 

[Lord Chair]

where did you hear that

itd be dumb of them to do a whole procedure on deciding a MU ratio only to forego it anyway

theres was quite a bit of consensus on -2, anyway

 

[Croi]

where did you hear that

itd be dumb of them to do a whole procedure on deciding a MU ratio only to forego it anyway

theres was quite a bit of consensus on -2, anyway

from a guy in the bbr, is where i heard it from

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We're not even working on the next version of the matchup chart. Someone lied to you. >_>

 

[Lord Chair]

scumbag bbr members

 

[(S!C)]

they dont know anything

time for beer

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I mean, it -is- -2.

*shrugs*