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Wario's Match-Ups!
- Thread starter xzx
- Start date
Iota
Smash Lord
Dair clashes with Olimar's u-smash and uair for most of his pikmin. According to Dabuz there's a certain angle in which u-smash beats out dair however with every pikmin except for white. Nair is honestly better if you want something to clash with u-smash and then hit Olimar especially since you get more follow-ups at more percents afterwards. This match up at a high/top level is VERY tedious. Most of the time it should be going to time or near it when played right. Use uair to get pikmin off of you, it's not going to be hitting much vs Olimar anyway. Your bike and tires can be very useful in this match up (something Pwneroni stated earlier) I think some of my best moments against Olimar's was when I had a tire in hand or when I just threw the bike for pressuring. SDI his uair, I can not stress this enough of how important it is to do it, it's a free aerial/waft if you SDI it quick enough which is vital in this match up since it's so hard to get in most of the time. As hard as it is to get into Olimar's spacing game it's not impossible, it just requires a lot of patience, having perfect spacing, and baiting him into doing something stupid. I will possibly get Dabuz in here to help with the discussion soon, my opinion of this MU is 0 for now.
BPx
Smash Lord
sorry for noob question, but which way are you supposed to sdi olis uair?
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
Quick summary of this MU:
Olimar's goal is to force Wario into poor spots in the air through Olimar's ground dominance. Once Olimar has Wario in the air, Wario WILL eat up-Airs, nairs, pivot grabs, ect. trying to re-position himself. Killing will be difficult for Olimar because Wario can break his upsmash with a well timed nair and blue back-throw won't kill a Wario with good DI untill 160% or so. Also, Olimar wants to go aggro on Wario before the fart is up because that fart is EXTREMELY dangerous to Olimar, once the fart is up, Olimar will want to play more passively, working to bait out the fart. Oli's uptilt and nair prioritizes a good majority of Wario's moves, if not all of them, but are small range and bait-able.
Wario will need to beat out Olimar very well, force Olimar to commit to options then punish those options. If Olimar wants to play passively, wario can focus on messing up pikmin throw and build up his fart. Wario's aerials are safe on Oli's shield when spaced and auto-cancelled right and Olimar doesn't have a good option to deal with correct pressure along with grab mixups. When landing, Wario will need to employ his best anti-whistle options, namely grab, nair, dair, and bite, Wario also wants to punish Olimar's panic aerials...which are any of them. Fair gimping is very effective against an oli who is offstage and forced to use his tether. Bike is super punishable obviously, Olimar can also stop the tires very easily, and Oli's small size limits the annoyance tires can produce, which leads them to be relatively hard to make effective.
Wario should CP long and flat stages such as FD and SV, he wants to ban stages that have platforms and allow Oli to be directly below Wario, meaning Wario wants to ban BF.
-1 for Wario
Olimar's goal is to force Wario into poor spots in the air through Olimar's ground dominance. Once Olimar has Wario in the air, Wario WILL eat up-Airs, nairs, pivot grabs, ect. trying to re-position himself. Killing will be difficult for Olimar because Wario can break his upsmash with a well timed nair and blue back-throw won't kill a Wario with good DI untill 160% or so. Also, Olimar wants to go aggro on Wario before the fart is up because that fart is EXTREMELY dangerous to Olimar, once the fart is up, Olimar will want to play more passively, working to bait out the fart. Oli's uptilt and nair prioritizes a good majority of Wario's moves, if not all of them, but are small range and bait-able.
Wario will need to beat out Olimar very well, force Olimar to commit to options then punish those options. If Olimar wants to play passively, wario can focus on messing up pikmin throw and build up his fart. Wario's aerials are safe on Oli's shield when spaced and auto-cancelled right and Olimar doesn't have a good option to deal with correct pressure along with grab mixups. When landing, Wario will need to employ his best anti-whistle options, namely grab, nair, dair, and bite, Wario also wants to punish Olimar's panic aerials...which are any of them. Fair gimping is very effective against an oli who is offstage and forced to use his tether. Bike is super punishable obviously, Olimar can also stop the tires very easily, and Oli's small size limits the annoyance tires can produce, which leads them to be relatively hard to make effective.
Wario should CP long and flat stages such as FD and SV, he wants to ban stages that have platforms and allow Oli to be directly below Wario, meaning Wario wants to ban BF.
-1 for Wario
Croi
Smash Lord
+1 Wario TAKE THAT DABUZ
But in all seriousness I don't really know. I don't want to say it's even but it doesn't quite feel -1 to me. Like, -0.5 Wario?
But in all seriousness I don't really know. I don't want to say it's even but it doesn't quite feel -1 to me. Like, -0.5 Wario?
Dabuz
Fraud at Smash
I don't have to take it, you already rebounded on that statement :3
So, do you feel like Wario is slightly disadvantaged?
Iota
Smash Lord
I actually agree with Croi's ratio I don't really find it -1 but it also doesn't seem like it's quite even. I'm still going to hold on 0 though. I don't agree with Dabuz's CP reccomendations. SV is fine but I'd honestly prefer YI or BF over FD. What I generally CP Olimar to is Delfino, Brinstar, SV, or PS1(if I really have to)
Croi
Smash Lord
Yeah, it's a tough MU, too tough to say it's even. But with our mobility, survivability, and with Olimar's limited options offstage, it just...it doesn't sit well with me to say it's -1, either.
It's annoying as hell, but, I think we have a good amount of things to work in this matchup for it to be skewed in Olimar's favor a significant amount.
I'm gonna go with 0.
I'm gonna go with 0.
Same olimar is hella annoying but i dont see disadvantage on wario imo is 50-50, yea olimar with no platforms is easier to approach , bite ***** his whistle and he dies really early. Still he can outcamp you on the ground so i suggest you take olimar to the air thats his weak point!
Again 50-50
Again 50-50
I'm happy to see a Tires fan !(In France, there's not so much
)Tires is revolution. Especially in this MU.
Lord Chair
Smash Master
anyone who claims tires make all the difference in this MU deserves a reality check
tires are especially terrible in this matchup
tires are especially terrible in this matchup
Iota
Smash Lord
Lord chair if you think that mind giving us a quick summary of how you think Wario should be playing the MU? Because my results from playing Dabuz on wifi and Logic the few times I've played him so far say otherwise about tires :/
EDIT: When compared to the godlike items that are bananas, nades, and ZSS suit pieces that's pretty damn true, it doesn't make them a bad item at all though as tires still have shield poking properties, locking properties, generally can combo into most of what Wario can do when connected, etc.
EDIT: When compared to the godlike items that are bananas, nades, and ZSS suit pieces that's pretty damn true, it doesn't make them a bad item at all though as tires still have shield poking properties, locking properties, generally can combo into most of what Wario can do when connected, etc.
It is the worst item to spawn. But assuming we have the skill to get your bike broken safely and quickly, it isn't that slow actually. It's like a Wario ware game : "Break it !"
Back to the Oli : Is Jab good in this MU ?
Usually, a lot of chars use Jab to not get grab since Olimar doesn't have a grab armor.
Back to the Oli : Is Jab good in this MU ?
Usually, a lot of chars use Jab to not get grab since Olimar doesn't have a grab armor.
In this matchup, tires are pretty much relegated to punishing grab attempts, but, they get stuffed by Olimar Forward-B and F-Smash. Basically, we can't ever follow up a hit with them. We can't ever hope to hit Olimar by throwing it up and waiting for them to run into it; if it works, he can Whistle through it. Also, he's short, so you can't be high up at all when you throw it forward.
To be fair, though, this matchup is all about getting a couple good hit at a middling percent, and there's relatively little risk having your bike on the stage against Olimar if you play intelligently. Tires are pretty easy to get here. Does Olimar have a glide toss?
To be fair, though, this matchup is all about getting a couple good hit at a middling percent, and there's relatively little risk having your bike on the stage against Olimar if you play intelligently. Tires are pretty easy to get here. Does Olimar have a glide toss?
Lord Chair
Smash Master
they get blocked by every active pikmin, whether its a thrown one or a move
wario is dependent on lasting priority on his moves in this matchup, youre just making it more difficult for yourself if you resort to something thats slower and less powerful
you cannot use tires to pressure olimar into something and youre wasting time by trying to set up something, as always they can be used and they wont make the MU any harder but trying to apply them as a means of actually edging the MU in your favor will leave you gravely disappointed
ive started ignoring pwneroni because he comes up with tires as a means of breaking every possible MU even when its utter nonsense and tires are featured in just about every post he makes
im not going to comment on this MU because i suck at it with wario, im not going to comment on matchups all too much at all because i dont really have the time for well constructed posts atm
wario is dependent on lasting priority on his moves in this matchup, youre just making it more difficult for yourself if you resort to something thats slower and less powerful
you cannot use tires to pressure olimar into something and youre wasting time by trying to set up something, as always they can be used and they wont make the MU any harder but trying to apply them as a means of actually edging the MU in your favor will leave you gravely disappointed
ive started ignoring pwneroni because he comes up with tires as a means of breaking every possible MU even when its utter nonsense and tires are featured in just about every post he makes
im not going to comment on this MU because i suck at it with wario, im not going to comment on matchups all too much at all because i dont really have the time for well constructed posts atm
Olimar is easy to follow up on when you land it, but, being Frame 8, you're usually better off using D-Tilt, which is Frame 5 and has more range. Pretty good option if you find yourself in his face.
Croi
Smash Lord
Is that including the frames to crouch?
On tires, in most MUs they can only help. But they're not a godsend; if you can get a tire against Olimar, then power to you, but it's absolutely not something to rely on.
No, but, if you don't crouch when you D-Tilt, I won't have to include them.
I don't know if this MU is 0 or -1, but as far as I see, Olimars range (especially with the yellow Pikmin) can penetrate us. Olimar's blue pikmin is really dangerous on the ground when we land. Also, saving the double jump in this MU is great, since you can jump away to a safer spot. I don't know, but I think one should approach Olimar horizontally, not vertically. Short hop dair into Olimar might be good.
Gah, I don't have that much knowledge about this MU either, so I can't provide with much info! The bike is really good in this MU though (for running over + tossing).
I would say -1/0. Just give me some thought. Oh, and Olimar has ridiculous KO power.
Anragon: -1
Pwneroni: 0
Iota: 0
dabuz: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Buff: 0
Croi: -1/0
xzx: -1/0
Gah, I don't have that much knowledge about this MU either, so I can't provide with much info!
The bike is really good in this MU though (for running over + tossing).I would say -1/0. Just give me some thought. Oh, and Olimar has ridiculous KO power.
Anragon: -1
Pwneroni: 0
Iota: 0
dabuz: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Buff: 0
Croi: -1/0
xzx: -1/0
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Nobody else talks about tires, so I gotta give em some love! I honestly think they are undervalued, so my efforts are being focused on improving tires and finding useful things to do with them. You can ignore it if you so please, you are absolutely free to do so. That doesn't change the fact that tires can really kick ***!
<--- Smash Researcher
<--- Smash Researcher
Iota
Smash Lord
And that's still completely irrelevant to their usefulness. >.>
Tires in the Olimar MU aren't really use for pressuring as they are for adding damage or making it easier to get hard punishes on Olimar when he makes a mistake in his spacing which again is basically what we're doing for the most part in the MU when we aren't camping lol. The fact that they hit his side-b pikmin increases their usefulness imo as it makes it so we don't have to waste clap to hit them off of us.
Pretty sure I ninja'd you there Pwneroni about tire usage for side-b :3
Tires in the Olimar MU aren't really use for pressuring as they are for adding damage or making it easier to get hard punishes on Olimar when he makes a mistake in his spacing which again is basically what we're doing for the most part in the MU when we aren't camping lol. The fact that they hit his side-b pikmin increases their usefulness imo as it makes it so we don't have to waste clap to hit them off of us.
Pretty sure I ninja'd you there Pwneroni about tire usage for side-b :3
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Yeah they can suck if you use them inefficiently. Tires are different than other items because of the lasting hitbox it can create on the field (they bounce in place). You have to be careful and more cautious with them, since they disappear if they touch another hitbox (excluding explosions and transcending priority moves) or a shield. However, you are able to literally make a tire last forever, because it doesn't start disappearing until it is immobile on the ground. They drastically improve Wario's range with throws and glide tosses, and also allow for traps and harder punishes.
Tires are undervalued and underused at the moment in Wario's metagame. There is more than there used to be, but still a long way to go. Precise and efficient tire usage can really change a matchup, such as the matchup against Olimar.
Tires destroy pikmin thrown by Olimar's side B (excluding purps which destroy the rubber wheel), and if you have pikmin on you then a bouncing tire will get them off. That right there is a simple yet subtle way that tires change the matchup, allowing you to save your moves for damage rather than staling them getting pikmin off you.
Think outside the box.
Tires are undervalued and underused at the moment in Wario's metagame. There is more than there used to be, but still a long way to go. Precise and efficient tire usage can really change a matchup, such as the matchup against Olimar.
Tires destroy pikmin thrown by Olimar's side B (excluding purps which destroy the rubber wheel), and if you have pikmin on you then a bouncing tire will get them off. That right there is a simple yet subtle way that tires change the matchup, allowing you to save your moves for damage rather than staling them getting pikmin off you.
Think outside the box.
Tires are always somewhat useful, but this is definitely a matchup where it doesn't seem to matter much. I could see them helping alot when edgeguarding, but on stage there can be as many as 6 expendable respawning hurtboxes to soak up all the damage.
If you kill a pikmin, olimar can pull another before the tire even bounces all the way back to you anyway. Its not completely useless to kill pikmin though, he doesn't have control of what he picks, so if he has alot of a color you don't like, I'd try to take the safest route to kill them first.
If you kill a pikmin, olimar can pull another before the tire even bounces all the way back to you anyway. Its not completely useless to kill pikmin though, he doesn't have control of what he picks, so if he has alot of a color you don't like, I'd try to take the safest route to kill them first.
Pwneroni
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Sep 26, 2008
- Messages
- 1,065
Yeah they just add a bit more depth to the matchup, and it's always good to know what to do with a tire if one happens to appear on the stage. Tire Barrage (rapidly instant Fthrowing 2 tires) can hold Olimar's rapid side B at bay ala Dragon Ball Z Kamehameha Clash.
I also understand what Pwneroni means. Tires is good for pressuring and stage control, and they give Wario's already bad range a boost. I love tires too, but there are other things Wario have that are greater than tires. The thing I see with the tires that might work well in this MU is that when Olimar is camping (and don't want to approach) we can "safely" get our tires out. They are good for edge guarding. Since Grabimar is the ultimate annyoing grabber, a bouncing tire will help us limit the grabs Lolimar do to us. But Olimar has a million ways of deleting the tires, so I think pretty much that the bike itself is a much better tool against Olimar, since it covers up so much range when it bounces three times on the ground. And the bike's large hitbox when throwed offstage will sure be a pain for Olimar's recovery.
But tires and the bike don't affect the numbers in a MU, IMO. They aren't useless though, as they have saved my stocks multiple times (yeah, f*ck you grab-releases!!)!
Also, I would say this MU is "0" to begin with. I think this MU will be -1 in the future, but for now I say this MU is 0.
Anragon: -1
Pwneroni: 0
Iota: 0
dabuz: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Buff: 0
Croi: -1/0
xzx: 0
But tires and the bike don't affect the numbers in a MU, IMO. They aren't useless though, as they have saved my stocks multiple times (yeah, f*ck you grab-releases!!)!
Also, I would say this MU is "0" to begin with. I think this MU will be -1 in the future, but for now I say this MU is 0.
Anragon: -1
Pwneroni: 0
Iota: 0
dabuz: -1
TheReflexWonder: 0
Buff: 0
Croi: -1/0
xzx: 0
Oh yeah right ! Thanks for the tip.
Here is my analysis of Olimar moveset(assuming you're fighting with Wario) :
Jab :
Doesn't come fast but great to keep away the opponent. However, Wario should always be in the air. So we won't have troubles with it.
F-tilt :
Same.
D-tilt :
Seriously ? Don't get hit by this thing.
U-tilt :
High priority and good vertical range. Expect this from Olimar, it will stop your air approaches if you're coming from up.
All grabs :
Dash Grab is a bit slow. Grab and Pivot Grab are the ones which are very dangerous. Olimar can do crazy things from a grab. Never land near him or do laggy attacks !
N-air :
The up-tilt aerial version, but it's faster, less laggy and has even more priority. SDI it at all cost, it pops you up and Up-air will usually follow-up... which hurts... a lot.
F-air :
Good spacing. Red have great knockback, Yellow has crazy hitboxes, the other shouldn't be painful. Use your aerial mobility to counter this.
B-air :
Same as F-air but it's a bit laggier. Sometimes, it has reverse knockback that knock you in the opposite direction Oo weird.
D-air :
If you recover high, you really shouldn't fear this move.
Up-air :
AAAAARGH ! Beats everything, loads of damages and priority. Avoid this !
Someone correct me if i'm wrong(and i'm sure i am)
EDIT : I'll do the Smash attacks later
