Wario's Matchups - Free discussion!

[TheReflexWonder]

Someone mentioned trying to start a matchup discussion, so I figured I'd put it out there.

No longer focusing on one matchup at a time. Talk about whatever you want.

 

[abcool]

This should just be a page where you write general stuff about matchups you have the most experience with. Like Vs Fox and then a write up etc. We already have the Q&A for the other stuff and not to mention the video thread.

 

[\Apples]

I like the way 9k is doing the DDD matchup thread, we should use a similar model. We just discuss matchups until we come to somewhat of a conclusion and then write a condensed version for the OP. I guess we could just kind of place an approximate win ratio if we want to, though I don't think it's that necessary.

How about starting with matchups we think are blatantly good or bad for Wario. Based on my experience vs the rest of the cast, I have the most trouble against Falco. I've always struggled vs Falco, though, so there may be a bit of a player-to-character matchup here.

Wario can combo Falco well, but that's a common attribute that pretty much everyone has vs Falco. Lasers make it very difficult to approach well, and I'm typically pretty afraid to try and bite him because of how fast he can stuff me with a Bair or Nair. Nair OOS doesn't really handle Falco's shield pressure at all, so Wario struggles against that pressure.

I really like counterpicking Skyloft versus Falco, the uneven terrain helps Wario evade lasers. (There's a good idea for the OP as well, stage counterpicking strategies.)

What does everyone else think?

 

[Translucent]

Yeah I think focusing on one match up at a time until everyone is in agreement is the best way to do this.

I like going against Falcon on stages with platforms like battlefield and maybe fountain of dreams. It really helps for dodging lasers and moving around.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

We have two people who want to talk about one specific matchup at a time, but they can't decide what specific matchup to start on.

 

[Translucent]

Lol I meant to say Falco .

Does Wario have any awful matchups so far for anyone?

 

[\Apples]

I don't really like platforms much against Falco mostly because he just utilizes them better than Wario does and they kind of lengthen the life of his combos. Or maybe I'm just not so hot with platforms. Wario is pretty capable of edge-cancelling pretty easily as well... so that's cool I guess. My playstyle doesn't really focus on edge-cancels at all, though.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Lol I meant to say Falco .

Does Wario have any awful matchups so far for anyone?

Jigglypuff
I might have just not figured it out yet, but jiggs is a huge pain
She outspaces Wario, outprioritizes wario, completely ignores the shoulderbash mixups, can't easily be gimped, and is downright impossible to combo

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Jigglypuff
I might have just not figured it out yet, but jiggs is a huge pain
She outspaces Wario, outprioritizes wario, completely ignores the shoulderbash mixups, can't easily be gimped, and is downright impossible to combo

Disagree. Hungrybox was pretty confident in that, too, but, Wario's sweetspots and stuff work well in spacing. You can catch her swinging with U-Air and B-Air a lot, and the trades are wayyyy in your favor. All of Wario's tilts are useful for that in this matchup, too. Forward-B can be okay to catch her when she's out of her spacing rhythm, and crouch canceling works well, since you have the horizontal aerial mobility to reasonably give chase after taking a hit.

Do yourself a favor and (S)DI her B-Air low when you're knocked off the stage, and she's find it much harder to combo you off.

You don't need to get long combos--Just make sure you find the best times to use all of your pokes, and it's not so bad.

Since we have two votes for Falco, though, let's talk about Falco first.

 

[\Apples]

Yeah, I've been playing P:M with Mango the past week and he also thinks Wario has a great matchup vs Puff. HINT: Space Bairs.

Falco... well... unlike a lot of the cast, he can actually combo Wario exceedingly well. I swear Dair and Shine are harder than they've ever been to DI out of. Lasers.... well, they're lasers. Wario's got some nice aerial mobility to get over them and TO Falco, but then he doesn't really have a super safe option when he gets to him. Fair gets beat by Bair, Falco's Dair beats all of your everything, his Nair trades pretty well with your Fair and Nair. Bite gets beat by all his ****... you're more or less forced into trying to bait him into doing something stupid while gapping his laser spam. If he's a smart Falco, you're probably going to have a really hard time getting him to come at you and give you an easy trade, punish or read.

That's the biggest thing, for me, the neutral game. Falco just owns everyone in it, and I'm not that good at powershielding. Plus, talking about powershielding as a useful strategy vs Falco is beating a dead horse, there's really no need to bring it up.

I don't typically have any issues staying on top of him when I do manage to get in, and edgeguarding him can be a little bit of a guessing game at earlier %'s, but I really feel like there's a setup in there by the edge vs Fox/Falco just like Marth has. Maybe with Wario's Dthrow by the edge as an initiation? Just throwing out ideas, I think that's definitely worth looking into.

Don't Nair OOS vs Falco when he's pressuring you, even if the Falco you play against isn't super tight with his aerial > shines, you'll develop that habit versus actually good Falcos who don't screw it up.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Yeah the point of a powershield is the illusion that you're getting a benefit out of it, its more or less a way of if they're afraid that you can do it consistently, to discourage them from doing it as much. Based on how much and how consistent it is, is how much damage you get literally and sociologically.

 

[tripwire]

Remember to cance his ram with crouch to get through a laser.

 

[\Apples]

Remember to cance his ram with crouch to get through a laser.

Took me a minute to understand this. I'm guessing you mean to cancel his Shoulder Charge with crouch. Does this go low enough to get through lasers? Probably not low lasers. This might be good if you space it well and you can start the charge before the Falco starts lasering, otherwise, you'll never have enough time to start the charge because delta t between each laser is less than the charge's startup.

I'm also not testing this right now, this is an assumption.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Remember to cance his ram with crouch to get through a laser.

In most situations, that's just gonna get you comboed, since he can crouch-cancel the slide and do whatever he wants.

U-Throw chaingrab starts at 8% (~9% if staled, like if you just 0-to-deathed Falco with a U-Throw chaingrab). You can technically stand in place until about 37%, but after 30% or so, the timing gets strict, so I would recommend doing jump-canceled grabs at that point. It takes some practice to react to Falco's DI well, but after you get used to it, it's not hard.

If the opponent tries to DI away, you can chaingrab them straight into a KO move, no problem, but if they don't DI at all, they can get out at about 70% with a Shine and/or a jump, so at that point, you should transition to something else...

U-Smash can be followed up with sweetspot B-Air for a solid edgeguard attempt. Just make sure your B-Air hits them toward the edge closest to you!

Shuffled (my word for "SHFFL") sourspot U-Air is a little more difficult to land after the U-Throw, but it can be followed up with either Forward-B or grab -> U-Smash -> U-Air, both giving you a pretty decisive KO.

 

[\Apples]

That's pretty good info. If I have a fully charged Waft, I like to U-Throw chaingrab until around 40%, Dtilt before they hit the ground, and Waft. It works if you get them with the top of the Dtilt's hitbox pretty well.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

You should be able to Waft straight out of the chaingrab or after U-Smash with no problem.

 

[tripwire]

Took me a minute to understand this. I'm guessing you mean to cancel his Shoulder Charge with crouch. Does this go low enough to get through lasers? Probably not low lasers. This might be good if you space it well and you can start the charge before the Falco starts lasering, otherwise, you'll never have enough time to start the charge because delta t between each laser is less than the charge's startup.

I'm also not testing this right now, this is an assumption.

I mean't more to get closer from full stage distance. I was under the assumption the slide had low armor?

 

[\Apples]

You should be able to Waft straight out of the chaingrab or after U-Smash with no problem.

That seems to be the more correct option.

I mean't more to get closer from full stage distance. I was under the assumption the slide had low armor?

Oh, yes it does a little bit. I knew that's what you meant, but I still don't think it's a good option because it will likely put you right in Falco's range (which is the distance he can travel with a SH Dair, which is exactly when he'll do because that's what Falcos do), and then he's gonna git ya.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I plan on doing some research for potential options for when they move toward a platform to escape. I have some ideas for an option select...

 

[abcool]

I'll put in some input since i played a campy Falco yesterday. When he is spamming laser from across the stage you can use Wario's air mobility to threaten his space forcing him to approach, don't throw out aerials, just get him in a position where you can land a grab (this was on FD btw) You can then proceed for CG's on him and end it in a waft. Upsmash can also go in there somewhere for a slight mixup, but NOT if he Di's away you'll miss and he will tech. Your on stage game vs Falco is not gonna be that great. It's like Sheik vs Falco in Melee, the edge is the best place to deal with him, since Wario home is in the air.

IMO, this is a ground vs air matchup or that is how i see it. Anyway, If falco tries to pressure you, Up-B OOS is better than upsmash for some reason and i love to do it, since i main Samus in Melee; this is like cake for me to react to pressure. When i was pushed to the ledge by Falco i would always mixup my returns to the stage. Ledgejump cancel into nair is the safest thing wario has vs a lot of matchups, but vs a Falco a few lengths away spamming laser's; SB from the ledge isn't so bad and should just be used once inawhile as a mixup, because otherwise you can get punished.

 

[\Apples]

Anyone know if Utilt can beat Falco's dair?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm pretty sure they can, but, I'd need to test. I'll probably do that later today.

I was going to make a video on the chaingrab, but I left my Dazzle at a friend's house, so it'll have to wait for now.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Aaaaaand here's a thing--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zEv79gPiwA

 

[Solharath]

Can we move on to Shielda? I think we should move on to Shielda. No big reason, we just haven't used this topic in a month and I'm having issues with Zelda.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I'm just gonna change it to a general matchup discussion thread. What have your troubles been related to?

 

[Solharath]

For the most part, it's just hard to get in against a wall of hitboxes. Wario has fantastic aerial mobility, but if Zelda has those Din's out, I've had some issue getting past those. Sometimes Jab1 will clank, other times I've only seen them blow up in Wario's face(I've Dair'd right through a couple Din's and I haven't a clue why. I start early enough that I know the hitbox hasn't disappeared). When I'm weaving through them, Nair or no, I'll likely eat a Lightning Kick or Zelda's own nair.

And she's so hard to string along, popping up and being all floaty. I'm more of a gimp man myself, and that UpB pretty much takes the wind out of my sails 100% of the time.

I'll have videos up when they're located and uploaded, and then you can laugh at how I miss even the most basic of followups 'cause I've basically built my Wario to be as fun as I can make him. And that doesn't always lead to the most effective strategies.

Also I have a hard time fighting tethers. Which is weird 'cause you'd think I'd just ledge detach and nair...

 

[Bobz]

Just random, not sure if this is the place to put this or not, but my friend has recently watched a ton of Professor Pro vids and developed a frustratingly good Snake.
It took a while to get the spacing down, but I eventually figured out that Wario can down smash near mines to explode them, although for the stronger ones you really need to be at max range. It was something fun to do when I had a free moment.
Obviously if you can get Snake to recover right next to the stage, while hard to down air (you just bounce off the cypher) you can just bait him in closer and then down smash right on the edge, but it only worked a couple times before he never recovered like that again.
And of course if there is a mine and you get a grab with your back facing, you can spin snake around and try to time it so he hits the mine, but I am unsure if the "controller port issue" affects whether or not this works.

 

[0RLY]

Yo, Sheik's ftilt completely walls me out. It's out for just the right amount of time where my fairs can't get in and matches Wario's fall speed perfectly. Wario also feels like combo food for Sheik. What can I do to improve my matchup?

 

[Bobz]

How do you guys deal with Link? I play against SS4Ricky a lot, and while I can edge guard him decently with neutral airs on his up b and spikes on his tether, I just have no idea how to approach him at all.

 

[\Apples]

Yo, Sheik's ftilt completely walls me out. It's out for just the right amount of time where my fairs can't get in and matches Wario's fall speed perfectly. Wario also feels like combo food for Sheik. What can I do to improve my matchup?

Can you squeeze under that kick with a Dtilt? If so, be ready for her to start crouch cancelling it. At which point I'd start going for grabs out of the Dtilt.

How do you guys deal with Link? I play against SS4Ricky a lot, and while I can edge guard him decently with neutral airs on his up b and spikes on his tether, I just have no idea how to approach him at all.

Does the side B crouch slide armor help you get through the boomerangs and arrows? I know I pretty heavily rely on that against ZSS' uncharged blaster. I wonder if Biting the bombs is worth experimenting with.

 

[Bobz]

hmm, I need to try down b cc sliding through more stuff. Not sure if it works on the boomerangs.

 

[MegaGuy]

Any tips for fighting against Ivysaur? Played a pretty good one in some friendlies at KTAR, and I couldn't for the life of me find a way to get in. Her FAir and BAir seem to stuff any and all aerial approaches, and it's hard to approach from above with something like DAir or FF Bite, because of how well she covers vertical space. CC Side B works okay, but that just ends up getting you grabbed after a while. Halp pls.

 

[Ace55]

Ivysaur is hell.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

So... Currently Wario is probably my best/2nd best character, especially when it comes to fighting MK. I know not a lot goes on here, but I'd love to discuss the MK match-up some, especially seeing as he's still relatively new.

 

[Strong Badam]

I've only played DSF's MK in a few friendlies but I was beating him pretty badly. Probably mostly MU inexperience *shrug*. I think Wario combos MK really well but obviously struggles in the neutral game against a DD character with a sword. I can see it being in either character's favor, I don't have enough experience in the MU to say either way.

 

[\Apples]

Same goes for me pretty much, haven't had much experience against him but his DD does scare me. I don't think I'd particularly enjoy edgeguarding MK as Wario either. Nair from the ledge is about the only safe thing I can think of but MK has 4 recovery options so edgeguarding him is rough. Hell, I'd probably prefer to just stay on the stage and space f-tilts or something. Sounds like a pretty fun MU otherwise, though.

 

[MagnesD3]

I need help with wario verses zelda, bad.

 

[DMG]

Wario prob loses to Zelda, GL bro!

Wario v Squirtle gave me a boner yesterday in tourney. Awww yeee

 

[mYzeALot]

In what way did you get so aroused by that matchup?

 

[\Apples]

Wario's Side B beats Squirtle's. It's a beautiful thing.