Was sonic's recovery nerf for the better?

[SmashAmass]

I still can't decide, I really don't think his recovery nerf makes him a viable character anylonger. True there were plenty of nerfs that effectively destroyed a single meta-game (don't quite remember, I think it was side B into Fair spike KO, but I don't recall), however, his side B has extremely poor vertical recovery unless he's above the stage. His Up B is already extremely easy to edge-guard and has very limited vertical recovery, so why nerf his only viable vertical recovery option? It no longer jumps upward to give slight horizontal gain to recover onto the map. True it was too effective, but it was nerfed very harshly, almost unusable in many situations (since you can't Up B into Side B). Does anyone agree with this nerf?

 

[SmashAmass]

I still can't decide, I really don't think his recovery nerf makes him a viable character anylonger. True there were plenty of nerfs that effectively destroyed a single meta-game (don't quite remember, I think it was side B into Fair spike KO, but I don't recall), however, his side B has extremely poor vertical recovery unless he's above the stage. His Up B is already extremely easy to edge-guard and has very limited vertical recovery, so why nerf his only viable vertical recovery option? It no longer jumps upward to give slight horizontal gain to recover onto the map. True it was too effective, but it was nerfed very harshly, almost unusable in many situations (since you can't Up B into Side B). Does anyone agree with this nerf?

 

[SmashAmass]

damnit I did it again! Keep clicking reply instead of edit!

 

[Wizzrobe]

I still can't decide, I really don't think his recovery nerf makes him a viable character anylonger. True there were plenty of nerfs that effectively destroyed a single meta-game (don't quite remember, I think it was side B into Fair spike KO, but I don't recall), however, his side B has extremely poor vertical recovery unless he's above the stage. His Up B is already extremely easy to edge-guard and has very limited vertical recovery, so why nerf his only viable vertical recovery option? It no longer jumps upward to give slight horizontal gain to recover onto the map. True it was too effective, but it was nerfed very harshly, almost unusable in many situations (since you can't Up B into Side B). Does anyone agree with this nerf?

Sonic is 100% dead if he doesn't have his double jump and is forced to recover

 

[leelue]

More or less

 

[Nazo]

He's fine.

 

[Alex Night]

I still can't decide, I really don't think his recovery nerf makes him a viable character anylonger. True there were plenty of nerfs that effectively destroyed a single meta-game (don't quite remember, I think it was side B into Fair spike KO, but I don't recall), however, his side B has extremely poor vertical recovery unless he's above the stage. His Up B is already extremely easy to edge-guard and has very limited vertical recovery, so why nerf his only viable vertical recovery option? It no longer jumps upward to give slight horizontal gain to recover onto the map. True it was too effective, but it was nerfed very harshly, almost unusable in many situations (since you can't Up B into Side B). Does anyone agree with this nerf?

Not to mention how he can't be able to airdodge out of his Up B. He is pretty much like Yoshi from Melee in the sense of him being dead in the water without a decent recovery to use after you lose your second jump. At least his spring makes for an okay gimp tool and an effective quick escape from a combo to add in his new fast fall Dair. If you want to recover, I suggest trying to do a Homing Attack and maybe you can get through your edgeguarding opponent... :\

 

[ELI-mination]

Once you hear Sonic go BOING from his up-b, you know he's about to get ****ed up

BOING ..... *DEAD*

 

[Nazo]

Once you hear Sonic go BOING from his up-b, you know he's about to get ****ed up

BOING ..... *DEAD*

Except when he's above you, then YOU'RE in trouble.

 

[DX.Kingz]

Yea I have to say that homing attack is Sonic's best form of recovery, but you have to make sure the range is well measured. If not your going down, way down. Fast fall down air is rather dangerous now and trying to use it as a spike and recover is pushing it. You will need to start a good distance in the air just to have a chance at it.

Also don't put 100% of your hope on homing attack. I've been practicing and I find even when you are in range to return sometimes it will 360 on you. Homing attack is now more of a heat seeker and if someone should say shoot PK fire off the edge while your trying to recover. Guess what Sonic's gonna aim for. So just be-careful. Can't just jump off and come back from anything anymore you need a plan.

 

[Nazo]

Sonic's homing attack was always a heat seeker. It had the same properties in brawl.
Best bet to recover with homing attack would be to only use it from a diagonal angle while recovering, so that you clash with the lip of the stage instead of over the opponents head or at the opponent themselves. Hitting the lip sets up for a ledge tech if your opponent decides to edge guard you, which could save your stock. you can use UpB after, or stall with another homing attack.

 

[Comeback Kid]

Yes, it was definatley for the better in the sense it is better for the game.

 

[Neptune Shiranui]

Sonic still has spinshot. It can really help with horizontal recoveries, as for homing attack I use blast attack to recover just incase someone is edge-guarding with a projectile it can really help into making the opponent think a lock-on homing attack will be used.

 

[Nausicaa]

Yes, it was definatley for the better in the sense it is better for the game.

This, I love Sonic in every way in 2.6.
Fun and functional, this nerf was appropriate, not dysfunctional, and if Sonic was initially introduced in 2.1 this way, I would surely have been satisfied with the creation.
Therefore, yeah, it's a sexy recovery. Got some dynamics, some niches, so extremes, some quirks, and still works to do what it needs to do when he can do it.

 

[Alex Night]

I forgot about how the HA is a good fake out for ledge teching. I saw that with Wizzy's match against Unknown's Cpt Falcon at Zenith 2013 where he used the HA underneath Battlefield to get back on the ledge and Ftilt Falcon to his doom. Oh ho, that was a glorious kill.

 

[Windstar120025]

He's fine.

Lol for some one with that avatar you need to learn a thing or two, SmashAmass's word were totaly correct, sonic needed a nerf but he was nerfed far to much. Without his Side-b recovery and his AC UP-B air Dodge he fell from one of the best recoveries to allmost no chance of making it back on stage.

 

[Windstar120025]

Except when he's above you, then YOU'RE in trouble.

Ha!

 

[Nazo]

Lol I have grown quite fond of your avatar, I am also awe-stricken by how handsome you are. I agree that SmashAmass' post was completely incorrect; Sonic required a nerf and thoroughly received one. Without his Side-b recovery and his AC UP-B air Dodge he dropped from having one of the best recoveries to being completely fair in comparison to the rest of the cast.

He's fine.

 

[Wizzrobe]

"He's Fine"(x1000) - Nazo 2013

 

[Alex Night]

He's fine.

Somehow, that line just reminds me of Two Best Friends when Pat just says, "He's fiiiiiiiiiiine."

 

[\Apples]

If anything, more characters need to see nerfs like this.

 

[Alex Night]

If anything, more characters need to see nerfs like this.

Now let's talk more of tweaks than nerfs because nerfs does not make anybody happy. *Looks at ROB* Anyways, Momentum Cancels can help with a bit more horizontal distance when trying to get back to the stage; I think he'll be fiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiine.

 

[\Apples]

Dude his recovery is fine. The character is still absolutely good and his recovery is still stupidly good. It's not about making people happy, it's about what's best for the game. That said, I agree with simplifying the character more as has been done to him. I think one of the biggest problems with Project: M is the abundance of mechanics that stray too far from the core mechanics and I think Sonic is more appropriate in his current form than he's ever been. If anything, he might still need toned down. A lot of the players who play this mod have skewed understandings of what is "good enough" and what isn't and as a result, a lot of characters have been buffed beyond reason and the game became more about character matchups than player skill.

 

[Nazo]

It's not about making people happy, it's about what's best for the game.

 

[ELI-mination]

There really should be more mention about how spacies are bad for the game as they are
And then maybe all these other things would be acceptable imo
Otherwise if you're okay with spacies, you're automatically okay with all other bull**** this game has seen, in my eyes

 

[Nazo]

I'm sure you're familiar with the proposed conspiracy theory that the PMBR are the "melee government" and created this whole project in an attempt to make spacies dominant over the scene once again. Let's assume this theory is true; in which case, mentioning how bad the spacies are for the game will have very little influence on nerfs for spacies. I'm not implying this theory is true; however, I do believe that spacies are the Sun, and that the melee world revolves around it.

But then again, I'm a nobody, so who am I to tell you that it's likely not to happen.

 

[SmashAmass]

I'm sure you're familiar with the proposed conspiracy theory that the PMBR are the "melee government" and created this whole project in an attempt to make spacies dominant over the scene once again. Let's assume this theory is true; in which case, mentioning how bad the spacies are for the game will have very little influence on nerfs for spacies. I'm not implying this theory is true; however, I do believe that spacies are the Sun, and that the melee world revolves around it.

But then again, I'm a nobody, so who am I to tell you that it's likely not to happen.

I am not one to sound like a complete moron, but what's a spacie? Is that techniques like wavedashing to leave open space between you and your opponent for counter attacks and dodging?

 

[Sartron]

I am not one to sound like a complete moron, but what's a spacie? Is that techniques like wavedashing to leave open space between you and your opponent for counter attacks and dodging?

A spacie is a term that refers to the characters from the Star Fox universe: Fox, Falco most commonly and now Wolf as well in Brawl.

 

[SmashAmass]

A spacie is a term that refers to the characters from the Star Fox universe: Fox, Falco most commonly and now Wolf as well in Brawl.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[Windstar120025]

He's fine.

lol like what u did there and agree with my quote, am sorry my initial rage of his changes has subsided and have found a ton more fun things to troll me opponents with, i was just a very big fan of his down-b tech since i new majority of its in and outs for most every situation

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

They nerfed his recovery way to much Sonic's up b ether needs to go higher like brawl or have the air dodge like 2.5

 

[Virum]

They nerfed his recovery way to much Sonic's up b ether needs to go higher like brawl or have the air dodge like 2.5

Except Sonic's recovery is still one of the best and most flexible in the game.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Except Sonic's recovery is still one of the best and most flexible in the game.

Except its very predictable like Marth's up b without using side b and easy to edgeguard which some people abuse that

 

[Virum]

Except its very predictable like Marth's up b without using side b and easy to edgeguard which some people abuse that

Except unlike Marth all 4 of Sonic's moves can be used for recovery. If you think Sonic's recovery is predictable you're using it very wrong and need to get better at using it. Most characters should have a hard time edgeguarding Sonic due to how versatile his recovery is.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

I meant no double jump while recovering!

 

[shores]

I posted in another thread on how to recover with sonic, I posted the millions of options that I have figured out and I'm sure that there are some I missed, I personally think that Sonic's recovery is one of the best in the game having more options than most and all his options being good. I understand that Sonic's recovery used to be better and I'd be the first to rejoice if it got buffed again, but I am astonished that anyone could try to say he doesn't have a good recovery, because it was nerfed from godly to fantastic. Sonic is absolutely a viable character and in my opinion he can recover with the best of them.

 

[TwicH]

I want to punch myself in the face every time someone says Sonic's recovery is bad.

Keep this in mind when recovering. Try to always go over your opponent. Sonic's spring goes really high and can still use aerials out of it. Use homing attack like the others above said if you are forced to use other options. If you have no other options and must use his spring to recover from under the stage then make sure you space it properly so you can grab the ledge without going over it. That last option isn't guaranteed to work but sometimes it's your only option.

 

[GabPR]

Also, spinshot.

 

[shores]

9 times out of ten there is no reason you shouldn't make it back to the stage when you get sent flying. You have to watch yourself off stage, because hitting side b with no jump when off stage is an instant SD. Barring that possibility sonic has more options than should be aloud for recovery. His neutral b spamming is a good way to span all horizontal distance as well as a jump cancelled side b. side b will sweet spot the edge or get you against a wall so you can jump+wall jump. (Don't Quote me on this one) but 'I believe down b cancels momentum' and also it spans horizontal distance until you jump cancel it. My favorite trick is that up b has great distance and if it isn't long enough because an opponent is holding the edge, you can footstool out of up b which will give you access to any unused jumps and an additional up b. Not that you'll need them if you are foot stooling an opponent on the edge. However, if some one comes to challenge you off stage up b+foot stool+up b is a really cool niche option. Neutral b homes in to opponents on stage getting great distance and even the dreaded bottom of the stage is defeated by sonics homing abilities, what no opponent to home in on, no problem if you are close enough to the bottom of the stage he will hit it any way. All this with the addition of what said above, you can mash b against walls ... I love sonic and he can recover with the best of them.

 

[Star ☆]

You have to watch yourself off stage, because hitting side b with no jump when off stage is an instant SD.

It is possible to uncurl a side b by pulling backwards on the control stick even when you have to no jump so it isn't an instant SD everytime. A down B, however, is always death without a double jump. Not that using a Side B without a double jump is practical, it's better to homing attack repeatedly back until you get onstage.