[Week 12] Zelda's Moveset Discussion: Down B (Transform)

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

nair is a godsend to Zelda's aerial game.
-it doesn't have blindspots like the rest of her aerials
- it requires no sweetspot
- it has little startup/cooldown lag and autocancels on landing (which can lead to GREAT combos... possible Dsmash or Utilt)
- In classic Zelda style, it has a lot of active frames.
- Zelda can actually use this as a surprise aproach by combining it long duration with her aerial maneuverability (floatiness).
-it does respectable damage
- it has a decent trajectory as well which can lead to surprising edgeguarding applications.
- it's about zelda's only combo oriented move... it can follow up a dash attack, ftilt and/or Usmash and then lead into Din's fire if all hits connect, or a dsmash if it gets autocancelled on the ground.
- it can also lead into a lighting kick at low damages against heavy oponents
(the above aren't unavoidable combos, but they are follow ups that CAN be used.)

The tricky part about this move is fining out where and when to use it effectively because it has limited range compared to most of Zelda's moves and also can be DId out of.

Personally, I love this move and use it less than I think I should. It's not ignored by zeldas I see on youtube, but it's rarely used effectively. I think, as Zelda's metagame develops, we'll see a lot more of this attack.

 

[Pappioll]

Nair is an awesome move. It sort of sucks in your opponent, has decent damage and pretty good priority.
I like to use this move as an approach sometimes. It works well with the autocancelling.

 

[Triforce_Chauzu]

I used this move a lot before, but lately I've completely stopped... Need to bring it into my game again. It's awesome.

 

[Oh Snap]

I used this move a lot before, but lately I've completely stopped... Need to bring it into my game again. It's awesome.

How'd you use it? Some suggestions would be nice ^_^

Sometimes I use a shorthop nair to punish laggy moves that I spotdodge or shield.

 

[Airgemini]

Pros:
-Autocancels
-Most reliable aerial move
-Has decent speed
-Decent priority
-Racks up damage

Cons:
-Can be DI'ed out of

All I can think of right now.

 

[Villi]

Ah, nair may auto-cancel but that's only after all the hitboxes are gone. If you fast fall it, you're guaranteed lag.

I usually use nair when someone is on a platform and I don't feel like it's safe to try a LK and I'm too far for an uair; or they're shielding. I'll jump out of shield with it sometimes if the char is in front of me and they're tall enough.

I'll use it to cross-up sometimes after a bair. I'll grab or dsmash if they're shielding and chase with a grab if the one-hit nair connects.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

after a few matches today, I've found that, at low damages against heavy charcters, nair can lead into a lightning kick fairly well.

 

[RedSnowman]

I love a lot of characters neutral airs... especially ones that hit all around the character. I don't use this move enough for it's usefulness. It's main uses for me are as an approach, and in air spacing games where I don't think I will land an LK or Uair. It's multi-hit nature also makes it great for when people air dodge or shield. Does anybody know off the top of their head how far below/above Zelda it hits?

 

[BLI7ZARD]

Her Neutral Air Combos Into A Bair Or Fair Or Uair. You People Have To Know That Already

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

uair... how does it combo into uair? and it only rarely combos into a lightining kick

also... caps lock.... please learn to turn it off.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

i will never turn it off. If you jump backwards and hit like the first two it always works i think. i dont know how many it take for the uair though

 

[Silent_Rain]

Oh how I like this move. I find myself using this attack after an up-smash at low percentages. It's fast and it hits more than once. In places such as Battlefield, when the opponent is on a platform above me , they usually use their shield to block but since this attack hits more than once, I usually hit them with it. It's good to rack up damage. :3

 

[Villi]

i will never turn it off. If you jump backwards and hit like the first two it always works i think. i dont know how many it take for the uair though

The first one can do it. You just need to hit them at the right angle to knock them upward.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

see villi knows it always works.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

The first one can do it. You just need to hit them at the right angle to knock them upward.

thanks your a lifesaver. its tough to pull off but it would be awesome against metaknight not that youll ever get a chance to do it against him

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

okay... well the gramar here is a bit confusing... but I take it you mean that, if you hit with only the first hitbox in the back of zelda it'll pop them up in uair range.

well I have a few questions:
1) this means you'd have to autocancel it right? in which case they are going to regain control of their character before you can hop back up and uair
2) I imagine the foe could easily DI out of that follow up.
3) I imagine that that is also very damage specific for the foe to be in the right place.
4) if it needs to be auto cancelled, your timing and placement will need to be VERY good... and if it doesn't need to be auto cancelled... then you'll have to rely on your fo DIing out of it at the right time?


Iunno... this sounds like it's not really a concern that would ever pop up in a real match.

 

[BLI7ZARD]

i can not inncorporate the nair to bair/fair combo i never popped anyone in the air into an uair.

 

[-Mars-]

I would use this move a lot more if it had better priority, it doesn't even clash or trade hits with much. I only find myself using t out of usmash or to finish off some low percentage combos. Dtilt can pop up the opponent for a nair, but your almost always better off using a more powerful move on those occassions. Another thing, never approach with this move, it's not all that safe to approach with it.

 

[Oh Snap]

I had a few matches yesterday over Wifi(zomggg) and I realized I was using all of Zelda's attcks except n-air and f-tilt. Seriously, the priority of this attack sucks too much. Almost any attack can outprioritize it.

 

[goodkid]

Its good to use for opponents that like to airdodge & when they think you'll use uair, nair will work well.
Its also good to attack people on platforms, its a decent move that should be used by all Zelda players.

 

[Oh Snap]

Yeah I forgot to mention it works wonders on platforms ^____^

 

[Villi]

well I have a few questions: ...

1) this means you'd have to autocancel it right? in which case they are going to regain control of their character before you can hop back up and uair

No, the nair would not auto-cancel*; it would be interrupted (after the first hit-box) by landing, complete with landing lag. Yes, they will regain control before you can act. I wouldn't call it a combo so much as a setup.

2) I imagine the foe could easily DI out of that follow up.

Probably not enough to be effective, but they could definitely air dodge.

3) I imagine that that is also very damage specific for the foe to be in the right place.

Nope, set knock-back from 0-999%.

4) if it needs to be auto cancelled, your timing and placement will need to be VERY good... and if it doesn't need to be auto cancelled... then you'll have to rely on your fo DIing out of it at the right time?

Yeah, you do need to place yourself very precisely to send them upward. More likely than not, you'll end up sending them in front of her if her back is to them or behind her if she is facing them. It makes sense as the hit-box is desgined to keep them inside the attack for its duration. I'm willing to bet all the hit-boxes do just that except for the last one which does the opposite.

Iunno... this sounds like it's not really a concern that would ever pop up in a real match.

On DDD in training mode, I've been able to get consecutive hits with one-hit nair to f-tilt and bair. In practice on skinnier characters, I've been able to land dash attacks and grabs. It's not extremely useful by itself, pretty useless even, but once in a while, I'll use it after I've gotten behind them with a sour bair. There's just enough time before landing to get one hitbox out. It's not extremely punishable when hitting the back of someone's shield -- definitely not as punishable as hitting someone's shield with Naryu's Love after a sour kick. [edit2: It's also possible to fair after a bair, or bair after a fair so you could also just try that which is also not so bad If you can get that far in the first place.]

*[Edit: To anyone who might not believe that this move doesn't auto-cancel at any point where auto-cancels are generally useful, try this test:

1. Short hop, fast fall, dash upon landing.
2. Short hop, nair, fast fall, dash upon landing.

If you timed "1" correctly, you'll find that you'll end up not dashing due to her short landing lag. :o You can also hold your shield button after you fast fall and notice the slight delay after a fast falled nair.

If you don't fast fall, the nair will auto-cancel, but it's necessary for you to allow the final hit-box to finish, which means that you're still in the air with no hit-boxes and no possibility of doing anything until you land. You can fast fall AFTER the last hit-box comes out, and it helps a little...]

 

[Villi]

Pardon the double post, but if you DO manage to fast fall and auto-cancel it, those few frames when you're unable to perform any action before you land are perfect for buffering another attack. It's worth getting the timing down for this.

So you know, SH nair ***whirwhirwhir*** (sound effect), c-stick down (causes you to fast-fall) = buffered dtilt. This one is by far the easiest buffer to perform, and arguably the best all around move to finish it off with upon landing.

 

[Oh Snap]

I tried fast falling with nair with the cstick yesterday and then buffering a dsmash. it works great if you do it right w/o the lag at the end of nair.

 

[RedSnowman]

Pardon the double post, but if you DO manage to fast fall and auto-cancel it, those few frames when you're unable to perform any action before you land are perfect for buffering another attack. It's worth getting the timing down for this.

So you know, SH nair ***whirwhirwhir*** (sound effect), c-stick down (causes you to fast-fall) = buffered dtilt. This one is by far the easiest buffer to perform, and arguably the best all around move to finish it off with upon landing.

This sounds really cool. I'll need to try this out.

 

[Oh Snap]

Seriously...I can't use fastfall nair in a match T___T

 

[Villi]

Seriously...I can't use fastfall nair in a match T___T

You can do whatever you want. lol I don't really see how it's beneficial at all not to auto-cancel it unless you're delaying your attack initiation, though. Just try it out and see, n'am saying. It's proving useful in the majority of my matches to buffer attacks out of auto-canceled nairs (and dairs!).

 

[Oh Snap]

Hey did you guys ever try spiking someone with n-air?

I tried to FFn-air someone off the stage...it kinda worked since they were trapped in the attack, but then they DI'd out of it before I could get them any lower + they survived.

 

[RoyalBlood]

In FD Nair traps people under the lip, and it outprioritazes Lucas Dair Yay! ;3
Actually it outspeeds may aerials and overcomes them :D

 

[Oh Snap]

omgazzz at 0:39

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tg-2JssmAzg&fmt=18

 

[Oh Snap]

This week's move: Netural B. Probably spelled Nayru's wrong hehe.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Nayru's Love is basically a godsend to zelda's moveset as well.
it comes out fast and is invincible upon starup.
It has nice range on both sides of zelda and ALWAYS sends the foe toward's zelda's front which leads to some interesting uses/setups with it.
it reflects all projectiles (increasing the speed of some)
it is a BEASTLY GTFO move, which is just what zelda needs in a lot of cases
watch ninjalink v. rykoshet 3 for a scary nayru's reversal
used off the edge, nayru's is a passable stagespike.
the reflecting effect lasts a deceptively long time
BAD NEWS ABOUT IT: lots of cooldown



so what's this all add up to? a brilliant move. it comes out fast and safe and counters a LOT of attacks with its combination of invincibility on startup and reflective properties. It reliably shakes off oponents who get too close and try to grab. It has a few offensive uses, but is a primarily defensive move that is highly punishable if predicted.

Learn what occasions to pull this out in, but don't fall back on it like a crutch or you'll find yourself punished for it.

 

[XFadingNirvanaX]

Nayru's Love is basically a godsend to zelda's moveset as well.
it comes out fast and is invincible upon starup.
It has nice range on both sides of zelda and ALWAYS sends the foe toward's zelda's front which leads to some interesting uses/setups with it.
it reflects all projectiles (increasing the speed of some)
it is a BEASTLY GTFO move, which is just what zelda needs in a lot of cases
watch ninjalink v. rykoshet 3 for a scary nayru's reversal
used off the edge, nayru's is a passable stagespike.
the reflecting effect lasts a deceptively long time
BAD NEWS ABOUT IT: lots of cooldown



so what's this all add up to? a brilliant move. it comes out fast and safe and counters a LOT of attacks with its combination of invincibility on startup and reflective properties. It reliably shakes off oponents who get too close and try to grab. It has a few offensive uses, but is a primarily defensive move that is highly punishable if predicted.

Learn what occasions to pull this out in, but don't fall back on it like a crutch or you'll find yourself punished for it.

This.

10NayrusofLove

 

[Villi]

I like Naryu's a lot. While the attack doesn't come out until frame 13, you're invincible from frames 4-12. That's not too shabby. An interested property of Naryu's is that if you're just coming out of hit-stun and you use it, it won't stop your momentum and you'll fall to the ground as you use it -- this makes it a decent move to retaliate with when you're under juggle pressure as it has a much larger hit-box than nair and it protects you at an earlier frame.

If you're still in the momentum of hit-stun/shield-stun and you jump and use it, it will greatly increase your jump range. You can also fast fall a neutral b after hit stun for a flashy descent.

If you're high enough in the air, it's not a bad idea to use it as a stall once, <i>sometimes</i>. It's also has an effective stall-and-fall effect if you use it close enough to the ground, but far enough so that you're over a potential hit-box. If your timing is precise enough, you could overlap your invincibility with their hitboxes and counter with the attack portion.

If you b-reverse it while you're traveling in a given direction, you will quickly shift in the opposite direction. I find this is useful to mix in sometimes after doing a RAR bair approach. Bair has a low cooldown, so if they attempt to punish they'll eat neutral B.

It's also a decent edge guarding tool. You can sometimes use it in place of a nair or dair, and you can fast fall into the opening frames of the attack which will stop your fast fall and allow you to recover from pretty much anywhere you need to be off stage after using it.

 

[MRTW113]

Against these heavyweights, the knockback is the relief you need and you can take advantage of its hitboxes on Zelda's upper body (seems to go to her arms). Nayru's becomes too weak against these guys; you'll usually eat something right after.

Yeah, the heavyweight's hitstun is actually shorter than NL, so you'll get bitten hard right after. D-smash works better on then.

 

[Mars-]

Is this about neutral b or neutral air? The picture says air the title says b.

As for the neutral b, I like it, it throws your opponent around behind you, which could be useful for ledgehopping your attacks. I used to do something like that in melee with jigglypuff where you ledge hop forward b, it throws them behind you and then you gimp their recovery.

It also reflects.

 

[Lingy]

I kinda fail for thinking it was spelled NaRYu's Love all this time. I can't believe it's spelled NaYRu.

Anyways, I love this move. I don't find myself using it a lot though. I also fail at b-reversals. Are they hard to do or am I doing it wrong?

 

[-Mars-]

I kinda fail for thinking it was spelled NaRYu's Love all this time. I can't believe it's spelled NaYRu.

Anyways, I love this move. I don't find myself using it a lot though. I also fail at b-reversals. Are they hard to do or am I doing it wrong?

All you need to do is tap the control stick in the opposite direction, then as soon as the control stick returns to its neutral position hit b.

 

[Villi]

All you need to do is tap the control stick in the opposite direction, then as soon as the control stick returns to its neutral position hit b.

You can also do it right after you hit b, which is what would cause a momentum shift. You can do both on the same attack even. lol

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I really really love this move because it's a great 'landing' move after you've thrown some Lightning Heels at a grounded opponent. When you've shorthopped toward an opponent, sourspotted, and find yourself landing right behind him, this move is a fantastic follow up.

It's useful in other situations but I find this is where it shines the most.