What changes, if any, would you like to see from Luigi in future updates?

[deadjames]

I feel like Luigi is one of the weaker characters in Project M. While many of the Melee vets were redesigned, or given various buffs, he's a character that has stayed relatively the same give or take a couple subtle buffs. So I'm interested to know what changes would you like to see from Luigi in future updates, or do you think he's fine the way he is?

One thing I'd really like to see is for Green Missile to have reduced endlag, so many characters can just completely invalidate Luigi's recovery and I feel that having less endlag on Green Missile would help immensely in that regard. Also, I think his dtilt should be reverted to its Melee properties because it had much more utility that way.

 

[MrDoubleT]

Give Green Missile ultimate priority, add some type of jump cancelling to his fireballs, and allow him to wall jump of his up b (which should be made like mario's)

 

[deadjames]

Jump cancel fireballs wouldn't really make a whole lot of sense imo, I don't really see how that would benefit him at all. I think his fireballs are fine the way the are even though canonically they should be bouncier than Mario's. The only change I could possible conceive of for his fireballs would be to reduce the endlag enough that he could waveland out of a short hop > fireball.

 

[Cubelarooso]

A more active board with more constructive discussion.

 

[Boomer3d]

I have always thought that Luigi should have a wall jump. It doesn't even have to be out up up-b, mostly because he gets almost no horizontal recovery from it anyways, and I find myself below the stage just a little bit too far down to be able to recover too often. Also just the sweetspot for the missile needs to be a little looser in my opinion. I (think....) you pretty much need to hit the ledge with the back of his head but it is very hard to get consistently and I usually find myself sliding down the curve of the stage instead of hitting the ledge. Another thing is in melee d-tilt sends the opponent up a little bit and you can start a combo, and even though now it does a lot of damage, it is completely unsafe and it is almost impossible to get it without your opponent being able to counter-attack.

In general what I would like to see is his recovery a little bit better and make some of his attacks a little bit safer.

 

[SuperNova!]

It would be great if they changed it so the tornado didn't require as many inputs per second to get vertical distance in midair. That would really help Luigi's recovery.

 

[Broasty]

First off, Luigi doesn't suck.
Secondly, you can Wave Land Fire ball if you input the fire ball as soon as you jump.
Third, his recovery is already pretty great if you know how to use all the tools correctly.
Fourth, every move has it's time and place...even the ******** Dash Attack. There are several matchups where the dash attack next to ledge will perfectly place the opponent over the ledge to be in place for a guaranteed kill using Dair.
Fifth, Dtilt has it's place in Fast Character matchups who get to spammy with fast techs. It works really well with Pivoting WDs and can be a great way to add more damage to an opponent falling off the ledge if you don't have enough time to get down and confirm the kill off ledge.

Edit: His Missile is fine the way it is.

 

[SuperNova!]

I'm not saying his recovery is bad, I'm just saying that it could be even better if they changed the tornado a little.

 

[Boomer3d]

I pretty much agree, I have only been using luigi for a month and I see his potential as a good character. But I would like to see dash attack and dtilt safer. No matter the opponents percentage, those attacks keep the opponent close to luigi and luigi will get easily punished. If d-tilt sent the opponent up a little bit that would be ideal, since the only real way I have combo'd/been safe with it is by crouch canceling, which luigi can hardly do. You can do d-tilt on the ledge but usually you also get hit away for it as well and, since dtilt sends them no where, they can easily get back on-stage.For dash attack, if the last hit sent the opponent away a little bit (like kirby's dash attack in brawl) it would be a lot safer in general and you won't be hitting yourself in the face as much for accidentally dash attacking instead of f-tilt.

 

[SuperNova!]

Those are some valid points and I totally agree with you. In addition to all that, maybe a little less ending lag on the missile. It has been my experience that using the missle (when it doesn't misfire) pretty much gets you punished, because you're defenceless for a couple seconds, afterwards. I'm not saying it's suicide to use that move, I'm just saying you usually get punished for it.

 

[Broasty]

Boomer, you can combo Spacies at higher percents with Dash Attack->Down Smash. In most situations, I agree, it's unsafe, but in the right situations, it can be a great tool to start a launcher for a combo or push the opponent off ledge. Dtilt puts your opponent in a fixed position (close to you) if it hits, it pushes you away if they shield (and basically eats it too). It's really more for racking damage in special situations and finishing shields as opposed to the standard "Hey I'm next to my opponent, time to hold down and press A!" you see in a lot of characters. Also, on fast fallers, if you can be right at the ledge when your opponent is in stun lock and near it too, you can Dtilt->WD->Fast Fall->Dair and kill the opponent. At least, that's what I've noticed. It's pretty situational though. Then again, Luigi is a pretty situational kinda guy.

Supernova, That missile has 2 places where you will not get punished(from my experience): in an aerial combo finisher where you have enough air time and space get back movement and as a Green Missile unblocked hit. If you want the latter, just use ledge cancels to grind til you get it (can be stored with holding L btw) or hope you get it while recovering. I'd honestly be upset if they remove some ending lag because any more would let people DThrow->SH->Missile. Yeah you can do that now, but without a stored Greenie, it's a 1/6 chance of succeeding. Otherwise, your ass is going to get punished.

 

[Boomer3d]

Personally I am pretty ok with missle as it is, Of course I don't like the lag but for the amount of distance in the air that luigi can cover I can deal with the ending lag. I do see what you mean tho. Maybe increasing the speed of the actual missle, harder to hit it, would be cool but idk.

 

[deadjames]

First off, Luigi doesn't suck.
Secondly, you can Wave Land Fire ball if you input the fire ball as soon as you jump.
Third, his recovery is already pretty great if you know how to use all the tools correctly.
Fourth, every move has it's time and place...even the ******** Dash Attack. There are several matchups where the dash attack next to ledge will perfectly place the opponent over the ledge to be in place for a guaranteed kill using Dair.
Fifth, Dtilt has it's place in Fast Character matchups who get to spammy with fast techs. It works really well with Pivoting WDs and can be a great way to add more damage to an opponent falling off the ledge if you don't have enough time to get down and confirm the kill off ledge.

The only thing that should be TOUCHED on Luigi is making the Green Missile have ultimate priority. Give it time guys, Luigi is going to climb that Tier list in a year. Most people don't realize his full potential.

-Luigi was bad in Melee and the fact that he stayed mostly the same in PM while everyone else got better makes him even worse.
-Pretty sure you can only waveland fireball from a full hop, but I'll try it with short hops again.
-Luigi's recovery is terrible, sure he can get back to the stage just fine, but unless his opponent is brain-dead many characters completely invalidate it.
-Dtilt is not useful, I'm sorry, it's just not the Melee one was better. His new dtilt was added as joke to reference the fact that his down angled ftilt in Melee had almost no knockback and hitstun.

Boomer, you can combo Spacies at higher percents with Dash Attack->Down Smash.

Pretty sure that doesn't work reliably, they can CC dash attack to very high percents.

 

[Boomer3d]

Also if a spacey is holding down (which they do alot in the matchup since luigi is super susceptible to shine) they will crouch cancel the dtilt and then beat your face in.

 

[deadjames]

Also if a spacey is holding down (which they do alot in the matchup since luigi is super susceptible to shine) they will crouch cancel the dtilt and then beat your face in.

That kind of depends, Luigi doesn't really have to worry too much about Fox's shine because he slides too far for Fox to follow-up, but yeah that's definitely true for Wolf and Falco.

 

[Boomer3d]

Idk I was facing a good fox and he would shine me to slide off and then run off and shine again, and it would start killing around 20 percent.

 

[deadjames]

Well offstage yeah Fox's shine is hell for Luigi, but onstage Luigi doesn't really have to worry about stuff like getting waveshined into an usmash.

 

[MrDoubleT]

If they reduced luigi's d-tilt ending lag and still kept the hitlag, it would be a great startup move. Also, I think Luigi's fireballs should have terribly low lag just like his aerials... except faster. Finally, increase the sweetspot for his Up-B and increase misfire rate.

 

[Broasty]

Deadjames, I can tell you right off the bat, there's a really important difference between Melee Luigi and PM Luigi: Floatiness. The difference is, in one short hop, you can bust out not one, but TWO aerial attacks, provided your first attack isn't Nair. He's like...a floating battleship of death that moves around at blistering speed on ground. As far as the Wave Land Fireballs of awesomeness, you have to do the input REALLY fast. Like, I literally flick my thumb across from X to B while sorta skipping the A button. Hard to do? Hell yeah. Swagtastic? You bet your sweet ass it is. As far as getting back to stage goes, thanks to the previous said floatiness, one is able to use the following to hitstun the enemy/cancel projectiles:
Fireballs
Fair
Uair
Tornado (My favorite way to deal with obvious projectiles off stage like Link's bow)
Missile (If you're so low that you know death is unescapable, try getting a Green Missile charge)
I never have problems getting back, especially since I've got the sweet spot for the missile and the height for just barely grabbing the ledge via SJP or Jump down pat to avoid being spiked with say Falco's Dair.
You say Dtilt isn't viable, but I'm telling you, that thing is MADE for shields, like, it safely pushes you away from the opponents while eating a good portion of their shield. Provided of course, there was a shield to hit.
As for the Dash Attack->DSmash, I agree if they're grounded, but I use it sorta like an Anti-Air, if I'm close and I predict they will jump (which they love to), it catches them in the air nicely...but only for higher percents. I've personally yet to have seen that crouch canceled under those conditions.

Boomer: Don't **** with Fox's shine, lol. Just Dair the son of a ***** til he's off stage (followed by more Dair).

MrDoubleT: Luigi already is already really fast on ground, last thing he needs is to be able to WD in and HOLD DOWN PRESS A TO WIN. As I said in regards to Deadjames, that thing is made for punishing shields in hopes of breaking it (or safely retreating).
Dear God...reduced lag on Fireballs... Luigi wouldn't even have to approach...he'd create a walls of fire. He already can give the medium to slower cast a hard time approaching without taking damage with his horizontal, slow moving, Wave Landable fireballs. He'd become the ultimate Defensive character.
Increase Sweet Spot for the Shoryuken? It's REALLY easy to get in already...doing that would make being next to Luigi=you're dead. It's tricky, but you CAN use it as finishers for DThrows and Aerial combos. Eli has shown this, and it's what brought me towards maining him in the first place.
As for the misfire (Greenie/Green Missile), the rate it happens is fine enough. It's not supposed to be an attack that's pretty much guaranteed to work out (cause then you can just Dthrow->Side B), it's supposed to be either a gamble or guaranteed followup if charged.

 

[SuperNova!]

If they reduced luigi's d-tilt ending lag and still kept the hitlag, it would be a great startup move. Also, I think Luigi's fireballs should have terribly low lag just like his aerials... except faster. Finally, increase the sweetspot for his Up-B and increase misfire rate.

I'm with you on the up-b. Either your opponent has to be really stupid or you have to wait ages for the perfect moment in order to use it. But like Broasty said, Luigi is a very situational character. As for the misfire rate, if they increased it any more, it would probably end up getting over used (spammed) and it would take away the slight advantage of it being a surprise attack.

 

[Broasty]

http://www.twitch.tv/freesaltines/b/357747025?t=1h39m25s

Believe in the Shoryuken.

 

[deadjames]

Deadjames, I can tell you right off the bat, there's a really important difference between Melee Luigi and PM Luigi: Floatiness.

Pretty sure Luigi's fall speed is exactly the same in both games.

 

[Boomer3d]

I'm not saying dtilt isn't viable it is just usually a bad option. You do have a point on its uses though and I pretty much agree with them.

One thing I don't get though is that if it is supposed to be a shield breaker why does it send you away from your opponent? If something is supposed to break a shield I would like to stay close to my opponent so I could hit them again with it or offer some other pressure or even make it easy to follow up if I do succeed in breaking their shield. Also in my opinion, shield breaking isn't a good mechanic in pm. In 64 it was great because you had so much shield hitstun that there are guaranteed shield breaking combos. In pm it is super rare for an opponent to overuse he shield for breaking and it is very difficult to put enough pressure on a shield to the point it breaks without your opponent interrupting you. I would rather a move be safe on hit then safe on shield. I do understand the reasons you put for liking it though and I am not disagreeing with them.

Honestly I am perfectly fine with his down tilt (and pretty much luigi in general) but if down tilt was safer on hit I would use it a lot more then I do currently.

Also, I think he is just as floaty in melee but his aerials are faster so he can do more then one in a shorthop.

 

[deadjames]

He feels the same to me in both games, I'll have to ask Strong Bad to be sure though.

 

[Cubelarooso]

Luigi could double aerial in Melee.

I don't have a problem with Luigi's recovery. It has fair distance and good variety, and while it is kinda slow and easily challenged, recoveries aren't supposed to be perfect.
Dash attack is an instructive move, teaching Luigis finesse. I can't really complain that it's not useful when it's only used accidentally. Even so, if an opponent doesn't react correctly then it can actually lead into sweetspot SJP.
Dtilt I never really use. I could see it getting buffed, but I'm not sure Luigi really needs anything that it could be made to do. Besides, I'd much rather find a use to dtilt than just make it useful. I think it's better than Melee's, though, where I also never used it. At least I can see some potential from Pro.M's high damage and shield damage that sets it apart from other moves.
Fireballs don't need to be more spammable. The only change I could maybe think of would be for it to maintain WD momentum throughout, mostly for retreating, but that just sounds too safe.

Honestly I don't have any problems with Luigi right now. Whenever I'm losing with him I feel like it's not because of his weaknesses, but because of my mistakes (or because certain other character have some dumb stuff).
Maybe he could use a better grab range to deal with the slippy shield, but he can just slippy slide back or shorthop FB instead.
Otherwise I can't think of any sort of buff that would really add to the character, although I'm admittedly not good enough to really feel constrained by his limitations. The only change I would really want is a 1-Up graphic/jingle on sweetspot SJP.

 

[Chevy]

Weegee Rocket is already fantastic. Super Jump Punch is already fantastic. His recovery is already good, albeit a little tricky. Dtilt is fine, it's also a jab reset. The only suggestion I've seen that I would like on Luigi is for his dash attack to go off the stage, Wile. E Coyote style. But that would be janky, so probably a bad idea.

 

[Broasty]

Pretty sure Luigi's fall speed is exactly the same in both games.

I took the time to go do some comparisons after seeing this post.

Like, literally, I asked a friend of mine if I could borrow Melee, but he had no memory card, so I had to unlock Luigi just to check this lol.

Melee Luigi cannot Fire Ball Wave Land, and based off of how viable SH forward->Fairs are (much like Mario in PM), I think the jump/fall speed results in less time in air. Or maybe it PM Luigi just can't transverse forward as fast during a SH from Melee. I was wrong in saying that you can't do two aerials per SH in Melee.

 

[QraQ]

I don't think the buffs to Luigi were very "subtle". Down-B not needing to be charged and it's height increase from Melee to PM is huge for Luigi's recovery game. He has extended hitboxes on fair, dair, ftilt, USMASH big headbutt! Not to mention the sweetspot on over-B along with the change to misfire letting it be an actual tool instead of always a random component. On ground Down-B has more persistent frames than Melee and has knockup used for combo potential.

I don't think Luigi needs any real changes. He still has unfavorable matchups like Marth n Ivy but I don't see him needing buffs for that.

 

[Stride]

He has extended hitboxes on fair, dair, ftilt, USMASH big headbutt!

On ground Down-B has more persistent frames than Melee

Have you determined this subjectively from your personal experience or do you have a source for these changes (or have you tested it yourself accurately)? I haven't noticed any changes to these areas, and have yet to find information which indicates that any changes have been made. Although in truth I have had little opportunity to play PM to notice these changes, I wouldn't trust any judgement on it (including my own) without proof; even Mew2King was insistent about changes to frame data in Project M despite being wrong.

 

[_Accelerator]

Have you determined this subjectively from your personal experience or do you have a source for these changes (or have you tested it yourself accurately)? I haven't noticed any changes to these areas, and have yet to find information which indicates that any changes have been made. Although in truth I have had little opportunity to play PM to notice these changes, I wouldn't trust any judgement on it (including my own) without proof; even Mew2King was insistent about changes to frame data in Project M despite being wrong.

I'll more than likely post Weegee's frame data when I get done sending Aero frame GIFs.

 

[_Accelerator]

I'll throw in my two cents here:

- I absolutely hate facing characters with disjoints or ones with amazing projectiles (Mario, Falco, Pit, Link, etc.) because not only do they stuff Luigi's approach options, it racks up damages and deals hitstun so they can do whatever they please as a follow up. Other than always Nair'ing in the air 99% of the time I absolutely don't feel safe at all
- A decent little change to fireball would be cool so not only can he edgeguard slightly better, he can wavedash right behind the fireball as an approach and rack up damage to Jiggs, Meta Knight and Kirby. Maybe model it after the SSB64 version?
- I died while doing a misfire by Donkey Kong's Bair and it didn't even trade. wut. It was perfectly timed too and he didn't even take damage nor hitstun, just Bair'ed and I died please fix that bologna
- Having a huge shield and a decent grab range (larger than your brothers) is great. OoS options are 7/10 but punishing with Up-B OoS rocks
- Luigi's good matchups are characters that combo with their bodies. Down-throw chaingrab on Bowser rocks
- Bair is godly 10/10
- Luigi's Cyclone was made easier to do than Melee, it isn't that hard to do and is pretty great
- Luigi's recovery is sort of predictable, but that doesn't mean you should be ******** when doing it. Most characters are in the same situation.
- Luigi is his Melee self, attributes including so he has the same fall speed as he did in Melee

 

[Broasty]

I'll throw in my two cents here:

- I absolutely hate facing characters with disjoints or ones with amazing projectiles (Mario, Falco, Pit, Link, etc.) because not only do they stuff Luigi's approach options, it racks up damages and deals hitstun so they can do whatever they please as a follow up. Other than always Nair'ing in the air 99% of the time I absolutely don't feel safe at all
- A decent little change to fireball would be cool so not only can he edgeguard slightly better, he can wavedash right behind the fireball as an approach and rack up damage to Jiggs, Meta Knight and Kirby. Maybe model it after the SSB64 version?

I've found the key to the first problem is baiting out punishable attacks for disjointed hitboxes and using Weegee's gahdlike WD to get in and start dem swag combos. I personally go for the Shield sliding grab usually. For projectiles, you'd be surprised how fast his fire balls are in firing speed. Basically predict the height of the next projectile and put a fireball in, followed by a shield slide.

As for your second problem, I LOVE EDGEGUARDING WITH FIREBALLS. They're perfect for putting your opponent in stun-lock so you can Dair or Flipstool them off the ledge and confirm the kill. I personally have also had good experiences with Fireball Wave Landing and UTilting your mentioned opponents when they are in the air. If they're on ground...well...you're just gunna have to get in there and do some grabs and crossups.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

I want something other than green fireballs. Maybe a little... electricity?

 

[Broasty]

Weegee is a man of the flame, he don't need no pansy sparks...(unless he's Mr. L, then I guess that'd make sense.)

 

[Phan7om]

more range on d-taunt

 

[Booster]

He should have a new move based on his powers he learned from the Thunder God, maybe instead of flower damage in his Final Smash it's Thunder Damage, in addition to all fire effects being replaced with Electricity

 

[Cubelarooso]

I've never liked suggestions of an Electric Luigi. Fireballs are still more "Luigi" than Thunderhand; even in M&L it was just a one-game gimmick. Not to mention he'd lose out on a central connection with his bro, as well as the reference to Mario Bros.'s Fireball enemies.
Similarly, I don't like the oft-mentioned idea of them burning green on hit. Sorta takes away from the fact that it's still fire.

 

[moonfolk]

Luigi's fireballs should trip opponents...lol

Actually, it would be cool if Green Missile snapped to the ledge easier. That's about it for me. I love weegee.

 

[Daftatt]

I've never liked suggestions of an Electric Luigi. Fireballs are still more "Luigi" than Thunderhand; even in M&L it was just a one-game gimmick. Not to mention he'd lose out on a central connection with his bro, as well as the reference to Mario Bros.'s Fireball enemies.
Similarly, I don't like the oft-mentioned idea of them burning green on hit. Sorta takes away from the fact that it's still fire.

I don't even think that the fireballs burning green on hit is possible, that would require adding a new "On Hit Effect" which I'm pretty sure even the PMBR can't do.

 

[CBO0tz]

The only change I would really want is a 1-Up graphic/jingle on sweetspot SJP.

Screw that, give Mario a 1-Up graphic/jingle when he gets a full connection on his SJP..

Then give Luigi a 3-Up graphic/jingle on Fire Jump Punch.