What changes, if any, would you like to see from Luigi in future updates?

[Cubelarooso]

A minor change I'd like is for Luigi's F/Bthrows to leave him facing the opposite direction of the throw, so he's set up for edgehog/bair/buttspike, while if you want to go with fair or something instead you can just press in the direction you're headed.
It's sorta a subjective thing, so I'd like to hear if anyone else prefers it as is.

 

[CBO0tz]

Idunno how others feel about this, but maybe Luigi should have his Brawl Bair return?
Also I wouldnt mind if they added Luigi's Scuttle jump animation when he jumps..

or maybe make him start his sprint animation so that at the very beginning he holds onto his hat, before running like the Bros do in their old games.

 

[cmvnb3]

The most obvious buff is to just make his tornado recovery a lot less of a Mario Retardy-Party button-bashing load of horse**** that many players can't do at all in the middle of a battle. Who's the tourney elitist that thought it would be euphoric to make the full recovery of characters inaccessible to some players?

 

[GeZ]

The most obvious buff is to just make his tornado recovery a lot less of a Mario Retardy-Party button-bashing load of horse**** that many players can't do at all in the middle of a battle. Who's the tourney elitist that thought it would be euphoric to make the full recovery of characters inaccessible to some players?

It's button mashing.
Do you have thumbs?
Then you can button mash.
Not getting enough lift?
Mash harder.
It's not a tough concept.

 

[cmvnb3]

It's button mashing.
Do you have thumbs?
Then you can button mash.
Not getting enough lift?
Mash harder.
It's not a tough concept.

You being stupid is also not a tough concept to grasp when one considers how my whole point was that it is unreasonably hard to button mash that fast.

 

[GeZ]

So that makes the Project M community the only one where I've heard someone complain about button mashing. Good ****.

 

[Stride]

The point isn't whether button mashing is too hard (which it is for a lot of people; to me, the ability to button mash seems to be heavily based on talent), but that the ability to press the same button repeatedly extremely quickly is not really a skill that should be tested in a serious fighting game. Assuming it hasn't changed from Melee, achieving the maximum height requires 14 presses of the special button per second; many players have to hold the controller differently to optimise their mashing speed and they still can't reach that amount.

Also, anyone who believes that L-cancelling is a bad mechanic because they believe it's an arbitrary technical barrier must agree that mashing the Tornado is also bad, since that requires even less thought and involves even less player interaction.

As for my changes to Luigi, I'd like to see:
• Dash attack and downward angled forward tilt made not to be extremely situational.
• Fireball ending lag to be reduced by at least 1 frame (maybe for aerial fireball only) to make it easier to waveland fireballs; if he can do it at all, I don't believe that the execution should be that difficult; it should be made easier or removed entirely.
• Make the command for rising with the tornado holding the special button rather than mashing it (this should apply to Mario as well).
• Wavescuttling (http://smashboards.com/threads/the-wave-scuttle.353290) in both directions.

There are more things I think would be worth experimenting with, but could very easily turn out to be bad ideas to implement:
• More disjoint on forward tilt to improve his approach.
• IASA frames on forward tilt to make it easier to follow up from forward tilt pokes.
• IASA frames on up tilt to make it easier to follow up on (at low percentages in particular).
• Less ending lag/sooner IASA frames on forward smash to make it safer.
• More range on forward smash to make it easier to end combos with.
• Reversed dair hitbox properties (making the meteor easy to land and the horizontal kill hitbox hard to land).
• Maybe having a hitbox inside Luigi (instead of only on his legs) during his down smash to prevent it being possible to wavedash through your opponent with a down smash and miss even though you were inside of them when the attack came out.
• I'd also tentatively suggest increasing his fast-fall speed, but that's probably messing with the fundamental attributes of the character too much.

I'm fairly confident that people will eventually find a way to make down tilt less situational than it is now as the meta develops, and would like it to be left as-is.

I'd like to play Melee SD Remix (http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-sd-remix-a-new-revision-in-the-works.324620/) and see how some of its changes are. It changed a lot of the same things Project M did, though often in slightly different ways, as well as containing many exclusive changes.

Also, whatever universal physics differences are present in Project M affect Luigi's movement and general feel very heavily compared to many other characters (I suspect it's because of his frequent and extreme momentum changes); I don't like playing him despite his improvements because of it. I know its really subjective, but I felt like my control over Luigi's movement was a lot better in Melee (though obviously a large part of that is just being more used to how it felt in Melee than Project M).

 

[Donyoku]

I personally have never had a problem with the tornado, and only found out it was hard for people after reading the forms. Some players from Melee said a good way to get better at it is to practice it in Melee (as it was harder in melee) and then practice it in PM and the difficulty will be greatly reduced. I just was good at button mashing with my thumb so can't really give any advice of my own.

As for my changes to Luigi, I'd like to see:
• Dash attack and downward angled forward tilt made not to be practically useless.
.

That is definitely something I had wanted for the longest. Just a usable dash attack could be so helpful, I doesn't even have to be great just an option. Or making the end lag less so that something can be done out of it rather quickly but, I think that would make the move nonpunishable in a sense.

I do not know about the downward angled F-tilt as I mostly use the neutral or up angled F-tilt, however if changed it could be used for edge guarding as Falco's was used in Brawl. Which would be useful since Luigi doesn't have that many edge guard options at the moment.

 

[Broasty]

As someone who has put about 2 hours a day of practice with Luigi, looks into the frame data heavily, and constantly goes out and plays competitively in the Orlando tournament scene, here's everything I think Luigi needs in terms of changes WHILE conserving game-balance.

Make Wave-Scuttle work both ways.

Anything beyond that breaks the character. Luigi is a plumber, not a damn god.

The button mashing is NOT Melee speed (14 press per second) for DownB.
He's a rush down character, meaning he's easy to kill and is all about getting in and beating the living **** out of the opponent. As such he can't have Disjoints considering how flipping fast he is.
Down Tilt IS useful. On jab combo, you can hit confirm before the 2nd hit. If the opponent is shielding and is too far for standing grab and would get out of hitstun and counter if you went for Dash->JC Grab then link the move with DTilt since it damages the shield heavily AND safely pushes you away.
Dash Attack is useful when a player is next to the ledge and you know they're going to shield. As such, they will be PUSHED off ledge where you are at advantage. You can't do it though if they have the ability to get out of hitstun too quick. Also, if the opponent isn't too heavy and is at HIGH percent, you can Dash Attack->Ftilt for kill.
Down-Angled FTilt does ->10 Extra Shield Damage<- so if you widdle that shield down, you can break it using WD->FTilt.

Luigi is an AMAZING character, however his execution level is also REALLY high. As such, if you're looking for someone that won't bother you that you were a frame or two off, you're looking at the wrong character. The difference between doing a back flip (jump pressed simultaneously with backwards Analog input) or a normal jump (jump) when executing Ledge Release->Backflip->Waveland (Instant Stage Get-up w/ Invincibility at beginning) is death. You have to be more precise with him than any other character. The hardest part about him is movement...yet his character requires you to avoid getting hit at all costs. That can only mean one thing: You need to play perfect.

If you want a dash attack you'll be at an advantage with if you accidentally input dash attack, use Diddy, Mario, or something of those likes. If you're looking for someone that doesn't need to worry about Hit Confirms, choose Fox since you can just Shine your way out. If you're looking for an easier Projectile Wave Land character, use Wolf.

If you want someone who'll reward you for extremely hard work and dedication and who wins by exploiting your opponent's every mistake, use Luigi.

 

[PsychoGhost]

Luigi is a solid character in P:M, but he does need a couple of things changed!

Buffs I would LOVE to see Luigi receive in 3.5 in order of importance:
1. Make his Misfire have some priority. Yesterday I used him for about and hour and a half, and a Misfire CLANKED with Squirtle's Water Gun (Neutral-B).
2. Allow Luigi to wall jump.
3. Make it so that Luigi's tornado and Side-B (non-misfire) don't have a TON of endlag. I've had it happen many times when I'm trying to recover, and I miss the timing of a double jump or tornado because he takes time to "recover" from a recovery move. Plus, the less endlag it has, the harder it will be to gimp Luigi.
4. This isn't as important, but make Fireballs a little bit easier to Waveland, somewhat similar to Wolf.

Other than my slight nitpick in #4, I believe Luigi is a very fun to use character who has a lot going for him! His punish game is AWESOME, he sets up a ton of combos with many moves, and he can often end combos with a killing finisher (ex. F-air or D-air). Just a slight tweak would push Luigi a long way!

 

[CBO0tz]

As a ****ty Luigi main, I can tell @ Broasty knows what he's talking about. But PsychoGhost has a few good points. I only disagree with the endlag thing.

Maybe his non-misfire Side-B could only have less endlag in mid-air, because there's a reason why he has so much endlag if you non-misfire on the floor. He lands on the floor. That's supposed to happen as a part of his character.

 

[Broasty]

Decreasing ending lag of tornado would make every character comboed to death with UpB or Green Missle finisher. It's already super easy to link moves with it to make amazing combos. Also, without the end lag, he'd basically be Sonic with a safe/mindless approach. The entire tradeoff for Luigi's offensive capibities is having to be super careful about approach. Also, making Luigi a ****ing steamroller with green missle would be OP since you already can farm the damn thing. Imagine the BS of players spamming SideB in hopes of completely overriding any attack the opponent may throw out. It'd literally change a punish to an apporach.

 

[PsychoGhost]

Decreasing ending lag of tornado would make every character comboed to death with UpB or Green Missle finisher. It's already super easy to link moves with it to make amazing combos. Also, without the end lag, he'd basically be Sonic with a safe/mindless approach. The entire tradeoff for Luigi's offensive capibities is having to be super careful about approach. Also, making Luigi a ****ing steamroller with green missle would be OP since you already can farm the damn thing. Imagine the BS of players spamming SideB in hopes of completely overriding any attack the opponent may throw out. It'd literally change a punish to an apporach.

I think you may have misunderstood, I meant make his OFFSTAGE tornado have less endlag. I am completely fine with Luigi's on-stage tornado.

Also, I'd like to stress the wording prior to my list...."in order of importance."

I'd love to see #1 on my list, and #2 would be cool too! But #3 and #4 aren't such a big deal to me personally.

 

[Broasty]

I think you may have misunderstood, I meant make his OFFSTAGE tornado have less endlag. I am completely fine with Luigi's on-stage tornado.

Also, I'd like to stress the wording prior to my list...."in order of importance."

I'd love to see #1 on my list, and #2 would be cool too! But #3 and #4 aren't such a big deal to me personally.

Assuming on Stage is referring to starting on ground and off Stage is referring to starting off ground:

One could do "Jump Canceled Tornadoes" to abuse the lack of end lag for approach. This still causes the problem I mentioned of Tornado leading into easy setup of Tornado->UAir->Jump->UpB or Tornado->Jump->UpB or Tornado->UAir->Green Missile which results pretty much in death for majority of cast. If not, the move starts in the air, as such can be abused to create a combo leading to one of the finishers.

Assuming on Stage is referring to ending on ground and off Stage is referring to ending off ground:

Since you can input B taps to raise yourself, you can allow yourself to be slightly off ground at the very end. Doing so allows you to give yourself just enough time to throw out an L-Canceled NAir which keeps a shielded opponent stuck in shield lock or an unshielded opponent in stun lock. This can already be done since you have less lag off ground, but since you don't get out of the move fast enough, you can't keep an opponent in Shield lock. If you could, you would end up with a VERY EASY Pillar combo on the whole cast. Pillar combo starting with Down B? I don't think that'd be balanced.

Any combination of either two situations on any other variate of what you meant by "on-stage" and "OFFSTAGE" still results in at least one of those possibilities.

 

[alexkenny]

I believe that Luigi's Side B needs to remain as it was in melee: a more more horizontal oriented move rather than curved.
His Down B should be that of SSB1: a powerful two hit move that hovers in the air and is moveable from side to side while on the ground
His moves that should remain are his horizontal fireballs, his powerful neutral aerial kick, and powerful Up B that appears in SSBM and SSBB.
Luigi is one of my favorite characters and these are the perfect moves taht I've thought up over time playing as him^^^^

 

[Riceykins]

As much as I'd love buffs for luigi, I feel like once the higher tiers are toned down a bit he'll perform better automatically even without any changes. He's fast and agile on the ground, has good kill options and almost every move has a purpose.

I honestly can't think of anything that would be a meaningful buff except maybe wavescuttling, but even then that's just adding to luigi's bag of baiting tricks.

 

[Broasty]

Wavescuttling would be so awesome. Imagine Ledge Waveland->Wavescuttle->Grab->Backthrow

 

[Riceykins]

Plus theres the added bonus of how comedic it looks for spectators.

 

[F-ric]

Luigi is a solid character in P:M, but he does need a couple of things changed!

Buffs I would LOVE to see Luigi receive in 3.5 in order of importance:
1. Make his Misfire have some priority. Yesterday I used him for about and hour and a half, and a Misfire CLANKED with Squirtle's Water Gun (Neutral-B).
2. Allow Luigi to wall jump.
3. Make it so that Luigi's tornado and Side-B (non-misfire) don't have a TON of endlag. I've had it happen many times when I'm trying to recover, and I miss the timing of a double jump or tornado because he takes time to "recover" from a recovery move. Plus, the less endlag it has, the harder it will be to gimp Luigi.
4. This isn't as important, but make Fireballs a little bit easier to Waveland, somewhat similar to Wolf.

Other than my slight nitpick in #4, I believe Luigi is a very fun to use character who has a lot going for him! His punish game is AWESOME, he sets up a ton of combos with many moves, and he can often end combos with a killing finisher (ex. F-air or D-air). Just a slight tweak would push Luigi a long way!

I think the end lag on his recovery his fine since he can get such far distances with it, you just have to be smart with it. I do, however, agree with the others 1. his misfire is really not hard to beat with certain characters as it feels somewhat slower and has much less priority then it did in melee (ex. Luigi's misfire can be stopped by Luigi's fireball) 2. Luigi doesn't have nearly as good of options as Mario and Ike for recovering after a wall jump so I think this is fair 4. This is way too hard currently and considering the buffs to Mario's fireball I don't think this is too much to ask for.

Also wavescuttling would be awesome if it worked both ways and I think if the first hits of dash attack had more hit/shield stun it would be ok because currently you can shield grab him in between the hits which is stupid and makes the move practically worthless unless you're lucky or they're by the edge.

 

[Stride]

The lack of misfire priority is only a problem if you're just throwing it out in neutral; if you combo into it or read the opponent then it works perfectly fine.

High priority misfires would be far too effective; it already has the surprise factor (even if some of that is lost with excessive use, the move itself cannot be reacted to at close range, making it a constant threat) and kills at low percentages. If it were also able to steamroll through a large amount of the opponent's defensive and offensive options (most projectiles, pokes, zoning moves, etc.) then Luigis would be throwing out raw misfires all the time because the risk/reward is so good. Even ignoring the misfire kills themselves, the mere existence of such a move would mean that the opponent is constantly forced to respect it, leaving them open to other things which can't be covered at the same time as the misfire.

Better misfires would not be balanced by the necessity of charging them (and would likely just increase the impact of luck on Luigi's effectiveness), especially considering the constant development of new (safer, more efficient) ways to farm misfires. I fully expect all high level Project M Luigi players (or at least those that don't also play Luigi in Melee) to become very good at things like edge cancelling and sweet spotting missiles in the near future, allowing the new setups for misfire kills which are being developed to be used much more frequently and effectively.

On a different note, how would Luigi even wall jump out of his up-B when it goes straight up (not propelling him into the wall at all)?

 

[CBO0tz]

On a different note, how would Luigi even wall jump out of his up-B when it goes straight up (not propelling him into the wall at all)?

You wouldn't, you'd wall jump out of his side-B

 

[| Kailex |]

Just here to say that luigi isnt bad, not weak, but good, 2stronk. Everyone that says luigi needs buffs sucks, thanks to a certain asshole luigi main I play with.

 

[F-ric]

I misfired into shieks multi jab attack and it beat it I think it should have a little priority I mean it should at least clank or something.

 

[Stride]

I misfired into shieks multi jab attack and it beat it I think it should have a little priority I mean it should at least clank or something.

The missile already clanks, it just doesn't get interrupted; aerial attacks will not cancel their animation when they clank, unlike grounded attacks do. If the missile clanked like a grounded attack then you'd just be able to follow it up into a nair or fair immediately which would be overpowered (like followups from tornado clanks but much more effective). In this case it would still be worthwhile for Luigi to constantly spam misfires in neutral.

It does look silly for the misfire to be interrupted by weak attacks like that, but it seems a lot worse than it actually is; like I said, it doesn't diminish the usefulness of the misfire is in plenty of other situations such as punishing missed techs, punishing rolls, punishing whiffed moves which have high ending lag, and finishing combos. Not to mention that it does still work outside of those kinds of situations if you catch your opponent off guard, it's just unreliable. I'd think of the misfire as a rough equivalent to Marth's forward smash; throwing it out on its own is risky while being very rewarding and rapidly diminishes in effectiveness the more frequently its used (because surprise is a large factor in that case). However, there are lots of situations where its either completely safe or much less risky to use. The fact that it doesn't work very well in neutral doesn't mean that it needs a buff; it just means that's not the situation its primarily meant to be used in.

 

[F-ric]

The missile already clanks, it just doesn't get interrupted; aerial attacks will not cancel their animation when they clank, unlike grounded attacks do. If the missile clanked like a grounded attack then you'd just be able to follow it up into a nair or fair immediately which would be overpowered (like followups from tornado clanks but much more effective). In this case it would still be worthwhile for Luigi to constantly spam misfires in neutral.

It does look silly for the misfire to be interrupted by weak attacks like that, but it seems a lot worse than it actually is; like I said, it doesn't diminish the usefulness of the misfire is in plenty of other situations such as punishing missed techs, punishing rolls, punishing whiffed moves which have high ending lag, and finishing combos. Not to mention that it does still work outside of those kinds of situations if you catch your opponent off guard, it's just unreliable. I'd think of the misfire as a rough equivalent to Marth's forward smash; throwing it out on its own is risky while being very rewarding and rapidly diminishes in effectiveness the more frequently its used (because surprise is a large factor in that case). However, there are lots of situations where its either completely safe or much less risky to use. The fact that it doesn't work very well in neutral doesn't mean that it needs a buff; it just means that's not the situation its primarily meant to be used in.

I think making it closer to melee is not that large of a buff since now you flash green before hand and it's so much easier to stuff on reaction. It lost most of its surprise factor for consistency but I still think it needs something more.

 

[Donyoku]

I think one major think that should be addressed is the fact that at times Luigi smash moves will not hit after Wave Dashing at times. I do not know if it it build in or is a feature of the game itself when that close to an opponent but, Luigi can miss smashes while inside of an opponent and its kinda annoying.

 

[PsychoGhost]

I think one major think that should be addressed is the fact that at times Luigi smash moves will not hit after Wave Dashing at times. I do not know if it it build in or is a feature of the game itself when that close to an opponent but, Luigi can miss smashes while inside of an opponent and its kinda annoying.

I know this may or may not be EXACTLY the same as PM, but Google some info on Luigi's frame data. The first link should be one to his Melee frame data. But assuming nothing (for the most part) was altered, I may have found your issue.

What you're probably noticing is the fact that Luigi doesn't have hitboxes on his torso during his Down-Smash. I'm assuming you're using the common approach of WD forward/backward>D-Smash.

 

[Donyoku]

I know this may or may not be EXACTLY the same as PM, but Google some info on Luigi's frame data. The first link should be one to his Melee frame data. But assuming nothing (for the most part) was altered, I may have found your issue.

What you're probably noticing is the fact that Luigi doesn't have hitboxes on his torso during his Down-Smash. I'm assuming you're using the common approach of WD forward/backward>D-Smash.

I did notice that at first, however it can be done with F smash as well which lead me to be believe it is more than just the down smash but just a frame problem when wave dashing into an opponent and smashing. However I am not certain, just something I have noticed.

 

[Broasty]

For anyone looking at frame data, use Brawl Vault to view it, rather than use Melee Frame data, the hitboxes are different in certain cases and it's worth noting the Directional Vectors that applies at the different parts of the hitbox.

Once I figure out how to make GIFs from Brawl Vault, I'll make a thread for it.

 

[Cubelarooso]

I thinks Brawl Vault's viewer is screwed up to some extent. Look at the Fsmash hitbox, then test ingame.

And you shouldn't go through too much trouble to make gifs, what with 3.5 and Developer Mode on the horizon.

 

[Broasty]

I thinks Brawl Vault's viewer is screwed up to some extent. Look at the Fsmash hitbox, then test ingame.

And you shouldn't go through too much trouble to make gifs, what with 3.5 and Developer Mode on the horizon.

Haha yeah, considering that's coming out, GIF making will be WAY easier. However, I don't about you, but I feel like this forum section needs some work. We really should have a Frame Data thread eventually, just like how I hope to later post my Chain Grab excel file. Eventually one day, I'd like to make a complete "Character Guide" thread detailing all the safe approaches, matchups, etc.

 

[Guel]

Been bored lately so started messing around with Luigi. Land his Up-B sweetspot quite often out of jab or predicted recoverys. Would be nice if everytime you land an Up-B sweetspot his next missile will be a confirmed misfire.

(Yes I am aware you can save misfire.)

 

[Broasty]

Been bored lately so started messing around with Luigi. Land his Up-B sweetspot quite often out of jab or predicted recoverys. Would be nice if everytime you land an Up-B sweetspot his next missile will be a confirmed misfire.

(Yes I am aware you can save misfire.)

Not gunna lie, that's not a bad idea. Considering how risky it is to go for it and Luigi's overall character balance, he should be focused on the offensive. As such, rewarding one for pulling off either an incredible read or perfectly pulled off combo would be a really good idea. Considering the Misfire doesn't go through everything and requires one to either do it during combo or during a really good read (due to the inherent risk) the reward wouldn't be over the top.

Good idea dude!

 

[Cubelarooso]

lol sounds like something from TF2

 

[Jyro]

I would just like a few minor tweaks to his moves
1. Reversible sweetspot on SJP
2. Ledge-cancelling the end of green missile has less lag-- green missile is so slow, even WHEN I ledge cancel it I still get punished easily
3. Possible to control the timing of dash attack hits, similar to changing timing in jab combo-- just to mix up timing a little if accidentally used
4. Green missile better priority -- its already a game of chance, I don't like how misfire gets stuffed
5. Fireballs last longer/go farther-- for long stages (FD), easy to WD follow up a fireball or two if opponent is camping or offstage
6. D-tilt has more shield stun -- if I predict an opponent shield it will be safer and do good shield damage
6a. D-tilt like melee's / comes out faster / actually has knockback / something to make me not regret using it

 

[Cubelarooso]

After careful rumination (but no actual testing how would that help?), I’ve formed some stable opinions.


Things I think would make Luigi a better designed character:

• Fthrow and Bthrow leaving Luigi facing opposite the direction of the throw. This sets up perfectly for most common follow-ups (edgehog, Bair, Usmash, stage-spike Dair, butt spike, etc.), while for Fireball/Ftilt/Fair one simply need press in the direction one intends to go. Admittedly, this is strictly to make play easier, but I feel it should be admissible since it’s such a simple, harmless change to still-fairly-nonessential moves.
  
  
• Wavescuttle working both ways. A no-brainer. It’s an innocuous, flavorful enough technique to not be cut, and it could lead to some stunning mindgames at high level. But, obviously, facing-dependence is jank and has got to go.
  
  
• Sweetspot Super Jump Punch having a 1-Up jingle and graphical effect. SJP is a reference to the blocks in the Super Mario series, and their unpredictable nature. They could contain a hoard of coins (Mario’s), or just one (Luigi’s). The sweetspot presents the other side of the coin (): There could be a power-up, secret vine, or more! Building upon the coin effect would be a natural step, and c’mon, you gotta admit it would be an awesome reward for a read or end to a combo. Plus, there's currently no great name for the sweetspot, which could be remedied by 1-Up-B.

Things that might be good maybe I dunno they sound cool to try at least:

• A crawl attack. When does anyone Dtilt out of crawl, anyway? I’m thinking a short logroll, like his ≥100% ledge-roll but ~1/3 the distance. A position even more compact than crouching could be used to Epic Geordi Maneuver under high attacks, while further protection afforded by a few (~4) frames of intangibility near the start would give Luigi a way through projectiles (particularly low ones that Cyclone can’t clank) and having it overlap with the first frame of hitbox would provide a bit more disjoint to his arsenal.
  It would mean another approach option (further tipping play toward offense), gives another tool for Luigi to not leave the ground (and to be undecipherable while there), and could even be used as a cross-up. As weaknesses, a tight intangibility window should require practice to perfect (and be particularly dangerous if used on a misread), using it from too far should give the opponent time to recover and respond, and using it too close could hit them out of their lag and leave them with frame advantage.
  Potential issues I can see with this idea are the rarity of complete intangibility on normals (I can only think of Pichu’s Dsmash as an example), and it overlapping too much with spot dodge/rolls. The former might not be needed for the move to fill its roll (), and differences in duration, distance, vulnerability, hitbox, and requirements for use should make the latter imply meaningful choice.
  
  
• Easier butt spike. I’m not a fan of just asking for an easier game, but this makes me consider it. In any situation, the reward for landing it hardly compares to Luigi’s other options, and the difficulty lies not just in execution, but in a compliant opponent, since it requires grazing into and onto them despite Luigi’s low drift and fall speeds. None of this is a problem, since the “risk” of a failed one is usually as good and often better, but it actually becomes a nuisance on the occasions when it interrupts the normal Dair. A more distinct butt area would (in theory) make getting either hit feel more player-dependent. Alternatively…
  
  
• True butt spike. Honestly I think there are too many true spikes as of now, but if handing out spikes to already-good characters like Lucas and Snake is part of the goal, it should be reasonable to make a meteor that’s actually difficult to land into one. While I’m at it, I might as well throw in the extreme proposal of making the current butt hitbox into a true spike, and the upper normal hitbox into the meteor.
  
  
• Fsmash sweetspot. I think Fsmash should be more useful, just because I like its animation. But simply improving its attributes is boring. One tool Luigi currently lacks is a grounded horizontal kill-move. An interesting idea, then, I think, would be for Luigi’s Fsmash to have a low (~35°) knocking sweetspot above his palm (vaguely in reference to Mario’s own).
  A sweetspot which opponents must fall upon would gel well with Luigi’s pop-ups, and I think it would look and feel nice to land. Something may have to be done, though, to prevent the downward-angled version from overshadowing the other two, such as extending the sweetspot equally below his palm, or placing the sweetspot truly above his hand rather than normal to his palm’s plane.

Other than these, nothing really interests me. Wanting generalized buffs to other moves is indicative of incorrect usage. Especially Green Missile, which is a perfectly healthy move that could very easily become over-centralizing from even minor tweaks. I always found it more flavorful that Luigi could crawl while Mario could wall-jump, while recovery buffs have proven to be playing with fire, and are just the wrong way to help a character. That goes for easier Cylcone, too. I still hate the idea of a green burning effect, and am not concerned in Thunder Hand (maybe on a sweetspot, like the butt spike or proposed Fsmash, or on Dtilt for more joke). I've also heard some rumors that sound awesome, but nothing that I'd specifically argue for, especially if it's already in. an
Regardless, I see Luigi faring well in the coming changes, and have gotten my original wish with Broasty and OnFullTilt making stuff happen.

 

[Broasty]

After careful rumination (but no actual testing how would that help?), I’ve formed some stable opinions.


Things I think would make Luigi a better designed character:

• Fthrow and Bthrow leaving Luigi facing opposite the direction of the throw. This sets up perfectly for most common follow-ups (edgehog, Bair, Usmash, stage-spike Dair, butt spike, etc.), while for Fireball/Ftilt/Fair one simply need press in the direction one intends to go. Admittedly, this is strictly to make play easier, but I feel it should be admissible since it’s such a simple, harmless change to still-fairly-nonessential moves.
  
  
• Wavescuttle working both ways. A no-brainer. It’s an innocuous, flavorful enough technique to not be cut, and it could lead to some stunning mindgames at high level. But, obviously, facing-dependence is jank and has got to go.
  
  
• Sweetspot Super Jump Punch having a 1-Up jingle and graphical effect. SJP is a reference to the blocks in the Super Mario series, and their unpredictable nature. They could contain a hoard of coins (Mario’s), or just one (Luigi’s). The sweetspot presents the other side of the coin (): There could be a power-up, secret vine, or more! Building upon the coin effect would be a natural step, and c’mon, you gotta admit it would be an awesome reward for a read or end to a combo. Plus, there's currently no great name for the sweetspot, which could be remedied by 1-Up-B.

Things that might be good maybe I dunno they sound cool to try at least:

• A crawl attack. When does anyone Dtilt out of crawl, anyway? I’m thinking a short logroll, like his ≥100% ledge-roll but ~1/3 the distance. A position even more compact than crouching could be used to Epic Geordi Maneuver under high attacks, while further protection afforded by a few (~4) frames of intangibility near the start would give Luigi a way through projectiles (particularly low ones that Cyclone can’t clank) and having it overlap with the first frame of hitbox would provide a bit more disjoint to his arsenal.
  It would mean another approach option (further tipping play toward offense), gives another tool for Luigi to not leave the ground (and to be undecipherable while there), and could even be used as a cross-up. As weaknesses, a tight intangibility window should require practice to perfect (and be particularly dangerous if used on a misread), using it from too far should give the opponent time to recover and respond, and using it too close could hit them out of their lag and leave them with frame advantage.
  Potential issues I can see with this idea are the rarity of complete intangibility on normals (I can only think of Pichu’s Dsmash as an example), and it overlapping too much with spot dodge/rolls. The former might not be needed for the move to fill its roll (), and differences in duration, distance, vulnerability, hitbox, and requirements for use should make the latter imply meaningful choice.
  
  
• Easier butt spike. I’m not a fan of just asking for an easier game, but this makes me consider it. In any situation, the reward for landing it hardly compares to Luigi’s other options, and the difficulty lies not just in execution, but in a compliant opponent, since it requires grazing into and onto them despite Luigi’s low drift and fall speeds. None of this is a problem, since the “risk” of a failed one is usually as good and often better, but it actually becomes a nuisance on the occasions when it interrupts the normal Dair. A more distinct butt area would (in theory) make getting either hit feel more player-dependent. Alternatively…
  
  
• True butt spike. Honestly I think there are too many true spikes as of now, but if handing out spikes to already-good characters like Lucas and Snake is part of the goal, it should be reasonable to make a meteor that’s actually difficult to land into one. While I’m at it, I might as well throw in the extreme proposal of making the current butt hitbox into a true spike, and the upper normal hitbox into the meteor.
  
  
• Fsmash sweetspot. I think Fsmash should be more useful, just because I like its animation. But simply improving its attributes is boring. One tool Luigi currently lacks is a grounded horizontal kill-move. An interesting idea, then, I think, would be for Luigi’s Fsmash to have a low (~35°) knocking sweetspot above his palm (vaguely in reference to Mario’s own).
  A sweetspot which opponents must fall upon would gel well with Luigi’s pop-ups, and I think it would look and feel nice to land. Something may have to be done, though, to prevent the downward-angled version from overshadowing the other two, such as extending the sweetspot equally below his palm, or placing the sweetspot truly above his hand rather than normal to his palm’s plane.

Other than these, nothing really interests me. Wanting generalized buffs to other moves is indicative of incorrect usage. Especially Green Missile, which is a perfectly healthy move that could very easily become over-centralizing from even minor tweaks. I always found it more flavorful that Luigi could crawl while Mario could wall-jump, while recovery buffs have proven to be playing with fire, and are just the wrong way to help a character. That goes for easier Cylcone, too. I still hate the idea of a green burning effect, and am not concerned in Thunder Hand (maybe on a sweetspot, like the butt spike or proposed Fsmash, or on Dtilt for more joke). I've also heard some rumors that sound awesome, but nothing that I'd specifically argue for, especially if it's already in. an
Regardless, I see Luigi faring well in the coming changes, and have gotten my original wish with Broasty and OnFullTilt making stuff happen.

Well thought out post Mr. Cube, but if I may, I'd like to give my two cents towards a couple of the points.

In regards to the throw facing direction:

From my experience, I've found that unless you're trying to just plain off keep the opponent off the stage, DThrow is always the way to go because of Chain Grabs, Follow ups, and damage from throw. However, if you're trying to put the opponent in a lower advantage position (off stage) where you can rack up damage via Fireballs mess their stuff up the ever-so-based Bair to keep them off stage where they belong, FThrow and BThrow are the way to go...depending on which direction they should go. Now, lemme go a step further. Usually when I get an opponent to percent that I can't Chain Grab/keep in close nitch aerial combo, I say "Ya know, it's bout that time to GTFO mah stage" and go for either the FThrow or BThrow to get them off...however at such percent, the throw option was chosen KNOWING that an aerial follow up was not possible. As such, the best follow up in this situation is ALWAYS a Fireball Waveland (or something to that extent with a fireball). Now, you most likely know this, but it actually takes time (errr...frames) to pivot/ turn around, and as such, to turn around and THEN Fireball takes longer than to do so without the pivot. As such, I do personally think it's better to face the direction of the thrown opponent.

In regards to the logroll:

I totally agree. Luigi REALLY could use this in the ZSS matchup since he's forced to put up his shield one way or another to get through her unclankable lazors. It should be very punishable, but at the same time, provide an approach through opponent's projectiles (a needed ability considering the cast in PM).

In regards to the butt spike:

I think the hitbox for the downward vector should be EVER SO SLIGHTLY BIGGER...but not much bigger, don't want him to be janky. I agree that the button zone should be meteor and the butt a spike, considering the risk of each zone.

In regards to F-Smash

I have a slightly different take on how I personally think this attack could go. Considering there are SO MANY BETTER OPTIONS for Horizontal Kill moves (Fair, Dair, BThrow, Ftilt) I think it's better as a combo starter. However, not just a combo starter, but a Footsie Punish. For those unacquainted with the fighting game lingo and its insinuations, I'm saying Luigi should step FURTHER back in the animation, to dodge an attack through spacing and then follow up with a low knockback attack that pops the opponent up in front of Luigi and slightly in the air. This would allow for the following followups:
Fair
UAir (leads to combo)
Cyclone (leads to combo)
Utilt (leads to combo)
USmash (leads to combo or kill, depending on percent)
FTilt
SJP
Here's the catch I propose: extra ending lag for missing, less for landing. Meaning you can't spam and you will be REWARDED for a smart read/fast reaction using very well placed spacing. Volia, a cool move is made super useful.

I'd also like to propose:

Buff DTilt to have higher Shield damage. I've YET to break a smart player's shield using strong shield pressure. If it were to be 1.5x its current damage, it'd be just enough to allow Luigi to be a legitimate threat in terms of shield pressure using his unique character traits and tactics.

 

[Elza~]

From my personal experience:

D-Tilt doesn't work on characters/players that crouch cancel heavily. It DOES work however, on players that like to press buttons(Outside of CC). I have gotten 30%(out of an 86%+ combo) from landing 2 D-tilts as it does a stagnant 15%, and it frame-traps people who press buttons.

Dash Attack is extremely punishable, as it is basically the only one you can get punished for actually hitting someone with. However, you can catch someone off guard and actually get away with it on-stage if it comes out super randomly.

Luigi is by no means an easily accessible character, but the results you yield from growing with him are far more satisfying than being given "Free Passes" because your character has a ton of really good tools.

Soon hope to have footage of my Luigi's growth in a 2 month time period.

The only thing about Luigi that really needs to be "buffed" are the players that play him. Do you even lift bro?

 

[Cubelarooso]

Every time I’ve tried to kill with Bthrow I’ve regretted it, and felt I would have done better with Dthrow into something. The only use I’ve found for B/Fthrow is for when I just really want a character off stage (mostly Falco, and sometimes Falcon and Roy), after which I’ll usually start Bairing and edgehogging (or edgehogging and Bairing). The idea behind the idea is just to make the moves better at this one thing they can do. Fireball is also common, but turnaround-B isn’t actually any slower. But as I said, I haven’t actually tried the change, so I don’t know for sure if it flows better overall.

I don’t see the use of an Fsmash that pops up, since he already has Dsmash (which has similar range), Usmash, Utilt, and Cyclone, plus Dthrow, Nair, and Uair. For horizontal kills, Fair & Dair require leaving the ground, Bthrow is wholly inadequate (easy to DI on top of already having a high angle and low growth), and Ftilt is great at getting and keeping opponents off stage but lacks the power to KO right out. Meta Knight is the character that makes this weakness most apparent (hard to kill off top, even more dangerous than usual to challenge in the air, keeps coming back from Ftilt), but it shows up in shades in several matchups (Lucas, Dedede, Sonic, Peach…).

Haven’t fully integrated Dtilt, so I can’t say too much about how well it does on shields, but I can see how it’s not enough since, numerically, it only does 3-4 more than Low Ftilt/Fair/Dair. I should point out, though, that breaking a shield is so rare that it should never be the true goal of shield damage, which should instead be to make the opponent stop shielding out of fear of a break/stab, and I’ve had success with it in that respect.

 

[Broasty]

Every time I’ve tried to kill with Bthrow I’ve regretted it, and felt I would have done better with Dthrow into something. The only use I’ve found for B/Fthrow is for when I just really want a character off stage (mostly Falco, and sometimes Falcon and Roy), after which I’ll usually start Bairing and edgehogging (or edgehogging and Bairing). The idea behind the idea is just to make the moves better at this one thing they can do. Fireball is also common, but turnaround-B isn’t actually any slower. But as I said, I haven’t actually tried the change, so I don’t know for sure if it flows better overall.

I don’t see the use of an Fsmash that pops up, since he already has Dsmash (which has similar range), Usmash, Utilt, and Cyclone, plus Dthrow, Nair, and Uair. For horizontal kills, Fair & Dair require leaving the ground, Bthrow is wholly inadequate (easy to DI on top of already having a high angle and low growth), and Ftilt is great at getting and keeping opponents off stage but lacks the power to KO right out. Meta Knight is the character that makes this weakness most apparent (hard to kill off top, even more dangerous than usual to challenge in the air, keeps coming back from Ftilt), but it shows up in shades in several matchups (Lucas, Dedede, Sonic, Peach…).

Haven’t fully integrated Dtilt, so I can’t say too much about how well it does on shields, but I can see how it’s not enough since, numerically, it only does 3-4 more than Low Ftilt/Fair/Dair. I should point out, though, that breaking a shield is so rare that it should never be the true goal of shield damage, which should instead be to make the opponent stop shielding out of fear of a break/stab, and I’ve had success with it in that respect.

I only go for kill with Bthrow if the percent tells me they're LONG over due for a kill move (150% or more), cause you're right, it doesn't kill until later. And, like you said, it's also useful when it REALLY puts your opponent at a disadvantageous by having them offstage. Do you personally think it should have more kill power? Cause I'd LOVE to kill more using such an iconic move. :D

You make a very valid point in regards to Metaknight, that sucker is by far one of the hardest matchups I've dealt with because of how hard he is to kill. On one hand, I do agree that having another horizontal kill move would be pretty dandy. On the other, I feel the ability to further utilize Luigi's combo game OR choose to go for the kill would be pretty awesome. You mentioned about how DSmash serves this purpose, however the reason I do not necessarily agree is because of DSmash's frames of inability to act involving the hit box that goes behind you and the end lag, which at the end of the day gives characters (Mario's a great example) that are popped up at the optimal height for combos the time/ability to act and potentially pull a http://youtu.be/BLYBlQIf2A0?t=1m16s on you since they are at a lower percent (and have less hit stun). The move I'm suggestion is one that is tweaked so that at any percent from about 1-150, you'd have a guaranteed follow up rather than a potential one since the move (FSmash) presents quite the risk due to its range and speed of attack. In regards to the other moves you mentioned, they all have their limited range of percents which you can pull a guaranteed follow up.

However, unless it's possible for the PMBR to create such move of specific standards, I do agree that it'd better serve as a kill move.