What do you think about the Confederate Battle flag?

[saviorslegacy]

Link to original post: [drupal=3382]What do you think about the Confederate Battle flag?[/drupal]



I recently went on a trip and visited the south. I was in Florida, Georgia, Tennessee and the Carolinas.
During the trip we stopped in Savannah Georgia and went to the old antique shops. I found all kinds of Civil War stuff, including a Rebel Flag (it is now hanging up in my room). I also stayed with some relatives of the family that live near Atlanta. There is some rich heritage down there.
At the same time I was reading about the Civil War in depth. I read about the lies that the Government has told us. I now believe that the North, was in the wrong and that the South was in the right.
What are your views? I challenge you to go beyond your high school education. I suggest reading book 6 of Joy Hakims history set, War Terrible War. http://www.amazon.com/History-US-Book-Terrible-1855-1865/dp/0195153308
She is an award winning author and I believe she has won two medals on that History program.
I read the whole set. lol

 

[Jam Stunna]

We discussed this topic in depth in a college class I took a year ago. There are a lot of different interpretations for why the Civil War occurred, but they basically fall into two camps.

The first camp views the Civil War as a national tragedy that should have never occurred. Scholars in this camp differ on who was at fault: some blame the South, some blame the North, some blame bankers and industrialists, but they all agree that had cooler heads prevailed, the tensions between the South and the North could have been diffused without war.

The second camp refers to the war as the "irrepressible conflict": basically, the differences and conflicts between the South and North were real and deep-rooted, so much so that the only way to work them out was war. They point to Bleeding Kansas and the Missouri Crisis among other examples to show that war was always a heartbeat away.

I went into that class believing that the Civil War was about federal rights vs. states rights, and that slavery was simply a trigger for the war, not the main cause. I supported the North because I believe that secession is unconstitutional.

I now believe that the Civil War was entirely about slavery, and that the states' rights aspect of it was important only insofar as it dealt with a state's right to maintain slavery. The South seceded specifically to maintain slavery, and while the North did not enter the war specifically to end slavery, that outcome was inevitable as soon as Fort Sumter was fired upon.


That said, my feelings towards the Confederate battle flag are mixed. There is no doubt that during the Civil War, the flag represented white supremacy in the slave-holding South, if for no other reason that it stood for a nation which sought to maintain the explicitly racist and brutal system of chattel slavery. However, I grant that the meaning of the flag has changed in the 150 years since it was conceived. It now stands for rebellion against authority, and that appeals to alot of people. So I grant that someone can fly a Confederate flag now and not support slavery, but I think that those people who choose to fly it should be aware of its history.

 

[saviorslegacy]

About two years ago I hated the South and all that it stood for. I hated how they rebelled just to keep their slaves. I was glad that the North won and that the South was crushed, heck, my family is Union (my great, great, great Grandpa died in that war).
Then I read Joy Hakim's book. It talked about how America was originally set up. It said that the states governed themselves and that Congress just made sure that no one tried to become a king and that they followed the constitution. lol, every state even had its own currency. So in many ways, old school America is slightly like Europe.
Then I read that America wished to change this. Congress wanted more power. When they went to do this either Georgia or South Carolina (I can't remember who) said that this was wrong. There was also a pressing matter about slavery.
Georgia, South Carolina and I believe 5 other states broke off and created the CSA. Other states (including slave free Texas) joined the CSA. Texas did not join because they wished to keep their slaves, but because they thought that the CSA was in the right.

Eventually, there was war. Even at the very beginning people did not want war. People hated it. That is why Abe Lincoln was such a hated man. Put yourself in their shoes, and you thought Bush was bad. lol
After 4 years and close to 1,000,000 dead bodies, the war was over.
The Southerners did not die for the right to keep slaves. Heck, few Southerners had slaves. They died because they wished to continue being the America that our for-fathers created.

The flag that represented the South was this one:

The South's armies carried The Rebel Battle flag (my avy). The usually customized it to match their state or province. ie South Carolina's:

Later the CSA adopted the Battle flag as their own.

Today, that flag stands for the willingness to rebel and the strong mind to do so if someone steps on your shoes. The the CSA battle flag stands for me, what this flag stood for:

I was also born in South Carolina so technically I am a rebel. lol

 

[Falconv1.0]

If you really think the South was in the right, you're insane. That Flag is not some representation of people 'fighting the man', they were rich white mother****ers who had their soldiers fire on us first all so that they could keep their slaves.


Fun story. My friend was in South Carolina once. He bought a North cap and wore it during the visit, a few people asked him if he was begging to be shot and his black waiter said "you know the confederacy won, right?" Not exactly tied to the discussion, but worth noting how much ignorance just over floooows from that place.

For the record, I believe people have the right to show it off and do whatever the ****, it's a piece of history, but don't give me bull**** about how it doesn't just represent slavery and racism, and all the other things ignorance brought for us back then, because it does and it always will.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Okay, your first paragraph made no sense what so ever. I am very confused by it, so please re-iterate.

The South is not full of ignorant people. It is full of sweet, self reliant people. Most of the people in the south are very well mannered. A lot of them also know how to do their own plumbing, electrical work, grow, hunt, work on cars and fix just about anything that breaks. Hell, our relatives down there even make their own wine!
That waiter was def joking. lol

Falconv1.0, the flag only represents slavery and racism to those who do not know any better.
Ever been down south? I have been down there several times and let me tell you, those people down there fly that flag for different reasons other than racism.
Read more about the Civil War and go down there to the rural areas. Try to understand the culture and their history. There is more than what meets the eyes.

 

[Falconv1.0]

I didn't say people fly the flag because they are racist, don't shove words don't my throat.

You said the flag stands for the 'willingness' to rebel. I'm not even going to attempt to make you understand why they were so in the wrong.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

The South is not full of ignorant people. It is full of sweet, self reliant people. Most of the people in the south are very well mannered.

What a humongous generalization.

The South has plenty of ignorant people. I suppose you think this is all fine and dandy too? That person is running for governor. GOVERNOR. If that's what political candidates think, then imagine what regular old people think. Not exactly related, but saying that the South is all sweet and nice is bull****.

Where did the KKK start? THE SOUTH. Can't get much more ignorant than that.

Falconv1.0, the flag only represents slavery and racism to those who do not know any better.
Ever been down south? I have been down there several times and let me tell you, those people down there fly that flag for different reasons other than racism.
Read more about the Civil War and go down there to the rural areas. Try to understand the culture and their history. There is more than what meets the eyes.

Well I'm not going to go down to rural areas of the South just to learn about this, so why don't you explain it? What is it? Pride that they enslaved people of a different color that they thought they were superior to? Pride that they caused a war that could have been avoided that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths and who knows how much money of damage?

 

[ndayday]

To answer the thread title's question-
Only thing I've been exposed to w/ that flag is general silliness and racism. Not saying those are the only things, as you seem to really support the other stuff it stands for or means. But yeah. People here in this area of Michigan fly it solely for racism and pride. It's because we supposedly had a very big advocate of the KKK in this county, and for this reason there are hardly any blacks here to this day. Our sports teams go to Ann Arbor or some ****? We get called racist *******s, that's how we're known. So yup.

 

[Melomaniacal]

"The only thing racist people hate more than being called racist... is black people."

 

[BBQTV]

all the people of the south like to **** their own family and are stupid as hell except florida

 

[saviorslegacy]

@Nday
Sounds like it is being used for something it is not. The swachtiga was used on the Nazis flag. They declared war on the world, put Jews in concentration camps and done many other horrible things. The swachtiga stands for peace, when you trace its roots. They have made it something that it was not.
Acts of racism with this flag can go into the same arguement as guns are evil. People call guns evil because they kill. Ima go cut my cousins heart out with a spoon, now spoons are evil.
BTW, white bed sheets are also evil and so are Christians (Roman empire) and Chatholics (to many years to count).

1 if you migrate to America then you should learn the language. I wouldn't migrate to China and expect everything to be in English.
Besides, if you *legally* migrate to America then you HAVE to know English. Only illegals and tourists don't know English. So why should we bend the rules for people who we don't like/wouldn't even get a license in America (tourists).
2 how many of you have done research on the Civil War outside of your pethetic school work. My history program was ten times bigger than a normal high school program. On top of that my mother *forced* me to do history on location. I have visited forts, the underground railroad and loads of other historic sites, I was even forced to go to the only house in America that was built for the soul purpose of counterfitting.
Where ever I go now I try and learn as much history as possible.
Also, every three months or so I choose a new topic to study. This is the second time I have chose the Civil war.
How much have you people done?
3 who all here have actually travele to the south to experience its culture?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I'd like a response to my post.

 

[BBQTV]

noone needs to travel to the south and even if we did we would find that the stereotypes are true. also the south ***** in the war in the beginning

 

[saviorslegacy]

I'd like a response to my post.

I responded to one of three statements that were very profound.

2 the KKK was largely in the south because the south had the most blacks. There were plenty of acts oh hatred up north, but in smaller quantities because there were less blacks. When there are fewer of your kind you kinda keep your head down more.

3 the Civil war has nothing to do with pride and it wasn't about slaves. I guess Europe fought and lost 600,000 soldiers that most didn't even have slaves over keeping slaves.........
I encourage you to please read Joy Hakims book series. It should help fix your..... misunderstanding.

@BBQ
Yeah, until Stone Wall got shot by one if his own soldiers. xD

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I responded to one of three statements that were very profound.

2 the KKK was largely in the south because the south had the most blacks. There were plenty of acts oh hatred up north, but in smaller quantities because there were less blacks. When there are fewer of your kind you kinda keep your head down more.

Is that why? There are a lot of African Americans in my neighborhood, but I don't see any KKK around here.

3 the Civil war has nothing to do with pride and it wasn't about slaves.

I was talking about the flag. The war was just a part of that.

I guess Europe fought and lost 600,000 soldiers that most didn't even have slaves over keeping slaves.........

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with anything I just said.

I encourage you to please read Joy Hakims book series. It should help fix your..... misunderstanding.

I encourage that you don't assume I misunderstand things. I'm not so clouded by bias that I can't think straight.

 

[BBQTV]

kkk isn't as bad now



and they should have turned friendly fire off

 

[Romulox2010]

I live in the south and I kinda have to agree with saviorslegacy here. I mean, sure there are people still bitter about the war and sure there are some people that have dogmatic and racist points of views with their roots in the south. But the confederate war flag stands for rebellion against a greater power. I feel that the national government did slightly overstep its boundaries by telling people exactly what they can and can not do regardless of how righteous their intent was. And there is such a thing as southern hospitality and I've personally experienced much of it since moving from new jersey. And I even wear my yankee hat and yankee jerseys as a fan and a proud northerner. But not once have I been looked at bad or harrassed for who I am or where I came from. In fact I've been better received in the south then I was in the north where supposedly racism is less prominent.

 

[§witch]

What the ****? Swatchtiga? REALLY NOW?

 

[Falconv1.0]

I'd like to note I don't believe people who fly the flag are all racists, most of them probably aren't. Hell there's a few blacks that fly it. I'm just saying the Confederacy was in the wrong, and that WAS the flag of racists, and while those who may fly it aren't, it doesn't mean it's suddenly some awesome 'symbol'.

 

[Melomaniacal]

People call guns evil because they kill. Ima go cut my cousins heart out with a spoon, now spoons are evil.

I just want to address this line, because I ****ing hate when people use this terrible comparison.

Guns are designed to kill people, and only to kill people. Spoons are not designed to kill people.

I live in the south and I kinda have to agree with saviorslegacy here. I mean, sure there are people still bitter about the war and sure there are some people that have dogmatic and racist points of views with their roots in the south. But the confederate war flag stands for rebellion against a greater power. I feel that the national government did slightly overstep its boundaries by telling people exactly what they can and can not do regardless of how righteous their intent was. And there is such a thing as southern hospitality and I've personally experienced much of it since moving from new jersey. And I even wear my yankee hat and yankee jerseys as a fan and a proud northerner. But not once have I been looked at bad or harrassed for who I am or where I came from. In fact I've been better received in the south then I was in the north where supposedly racism is less prominent.

Are you white?

 

[Firus]

Where did the KKK start? THE SOUTH. Can't get much more ignorant than that.

I could try and find an organization that began in the north that's ignorant, but I'm too lazy to since I can make my point regardless.

An organization starts in a certain area and this means the entire area is ignorant? How does that prove...anything? It might've been quite popular 150 years ago, but again, a lot has changed since then. I think for the most part the KKK is frowned upon everywhere nowadays.

Pride that they caused a war that could have been avoided that resulted in hundreds of thousands of deaths and who knows how much money of damage?

Um, the south seceded, but the north actually started the war. Of course, the war wouldn't have begun without the secession, and obviously we'd be in trouble had the north not won -- if we weren't united in cases like World War II we could've been in trouble -- but let's not pin all the blame on the south.

Anyways, listen, I grew up in the south and I found people to actually be quite nice there. And my parents are most certainly not related, nor were any of my friends' parents. That stereotype may be fun for jokes but has absolutely no place in serious discussion as it's really untrue.

I am not a supporter of bigotry at all, rather the opposite; but it's not as if the entire south is bigoted, ignorant, and stupid. I've found my fair share of bigoted, ignorant, stupid people in the north. To be fair, isn't it bigoted to say that people in the south are stupid?

I faced some of that crap when I first moved to the north, and I've gotta tell you, I was ahead of the schools in the north when I moved from the south. I learned cursive in second grade, a good ways into the year in third grade they still hadn't learned it so I had to copy poems in cursive while they did. Back down south I'd have learned the 50 states in fifth grade -- up in the north, I wasn't required to know them until I took AP US History.

To say that this is true all over the place would be silly, or to say that this universally proves that anyone who was in my area would be smarter simply because the curriculum was further ahead would be ridiculous, but this is an example that shows that southern education isn't crap or anything -- yet my family got crap because people thought people in the south are ignorant and stupid.

My sisters and I had teachers say nasty things about the south, including that you could go to a gas station and get a beer at 14 without any sort of ID. So I'm trying to end this idiotic looking down on people just because they're from the south, if I can. If you haven't personally been down there, don't start regurgitating stereotypes that you've heard. Every time I revisit the south I'm reminded of how much nicer people tend to be down there.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I could try and find an organization that began in the north that's ignorant, but I'm too lazy to since I can make my point regardless.

Well, you could just say that Ohio currently has the highest amount of KKK members (IIRC).
Wait, isn't savior a conservative, religious republican who supports the confederacy from Ohio?

...hm...

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

There's some misunderstanding of history here.

First of all, to correct a wrong claim, Texas was a slave holding state. Every single state that seceded from the union was a slave state, though a few states that were slave states didn't secede (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware). Also, a group of counties of Virginia broke off from the rest of the state in their refusal to secede (forming the state now known as "West Virginia").

The causes of the Civil War are complex and controversial among historians, but some basics haven't been brought up. Tariffs were a historic point of conflict; the government had for many years pursued policies of high tariffs which were beneficial to the industrial North but detrimental to the agricultural South. It was quite a few years before the Civil War, but the nullification crisis is an event some people here might want to read up on (it happened during the presidency of Andrew Jackson).

Furthermore, the expansion into the West was creating huge problems in terms of the balance of power. From the early days of the union, there had been a rough balance between slave states and free states, largely as a matter of coincidence. New territories were routinely integrated along geographic lines (Alabama and such becoming slave, Illinois and such becoming free). This balance first became a notable issue at the time of the Missouri Compromise, at such a time as Missouri was going to enter the union as a slave state and create one more slave state than free. The solution was to make Maine a separate state (up to that point, it had bizarrely been a part of Massachusetts) and to create more firm rules governing the territories.

However, the slave south was soon to suffer two fairly crushing blows whose exact sequence I can't remember. One was that California, to the distant west, entered the union as a free state. It was pretty far south, but slavery was just not catching on in the West. Secondly, Kansas wanted to enter the union as a free state. Kansas and Nebraska were divided as they were under the assumption that eventually Kansas would enter the union as a slave state while Nebraska would probably be free. This was representative of some major shifting of power as you may note. Now the free states had a big majority.

Politically, the only way peace was maintained was by a series of victories by fairly weak Democratic candidates and the death of the Whig party as a legitimate political force. A growing free soil movement in the North was basically an attack on the long term political power of the South, and it came to the tipping point around the election of 1860. Historically notable president Abraham Lincoln was running under the newly formed Republican Party, which was representative of the free soil movement (a note for the confused: the Democrats and Republicans started to "switch sides" somewhere in-between Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, though the full transition took about half a century). His main Democratic opponent was Stephen Douglas, a fairly major politician of the day who was stuck in the unenviable position of trying to garner Southern support while still getting votes from the North. He ended up saying some things in debates with Lincoln that alienated most of the South, which then supported a few third party candidates who were completely unviable outside of the South. We can guess how this goes. Lincoln wins every single free state and none of the South which is more than half of the electoral college. Douglas wins just Missouri (one of the few times Missouri supports a loser). The random third parties split the South. This makes things very clear; the South does not have the power to control national policy any more, and in the long run, Lincoln represents a movement that will eventually destroy the South's way of life (for which slavery was crucial). South Carolina, always at the forefront of controversy, starts the ball rolling, and after heated internal debates, most of the remaining slave states join it. Due to cultural reasons, most of the good generals of the day are from the South as well which allows the militarily radically inferior South to hang on for as long as it did.

I think I've been objective and non-judgmental here, but I get a sense that at least some people weren't aware of all of this and/or didn't understand it very well. This is the very short version of decades of history and a conflict that had its roots honestly as far back as the initial founding of the country and to some extent persists today (though in muted form). Slavery was obviously a central point because it was the defining characteristic of the South's economic model and ultimately social structure, but to say the war was or was not over slavery is a bit of a simplification. It was more about a way of life; it wasn't until the 1960s that non-black people began to agree that the interests of blacks were a particularly relevant concern (few anti-slavery advocates argued black people should be given equal rights to whites, which to me is a good sign they weren't very legitimate in their concern that black people were being treated unfairly).

 

[Sucumbio]

Epic Win

Thank you for that clarification. I was not looking forward to doing it myself, lol.

So anyway, I actually find the flag offensive. Even if it's being displayed for a reason other than to flip off black people, it's flipping off black people. There's no way not to do that. And that is not a racist attitude for blacks to have. You cannot fault an African American for automatically connoting slavery (of their ancestors) the same way you cannot fault a Jew for connoting the Holocaust when they see a Nazi Germany swastika. (I think someone tried making that point already but whatever.)

This in and of itself is enough to make the flag inappropriate to fly in public. But people do anyway because it's a free country. Many who do or who have it on t-shirts or bumper stickers... well.. they WANT to be known as rednecks or white trash. They're PROUD of that. They want to broadcast to the world their feeling that blacks aren't any better than dogs and deserve to be on leashes, picking their cotton.

Others -have- done their "book learnin'" ... they've read that book, or others like it. They've gone to school, they know the evils of slavery. And they still fly the flag proudly because they believe it symbolizes a cultural heritage. Thankfully you fly yours in your room. You need not worry about looking bad in public. Of course depending on where in the South you are, you wouldn't look bad if you wore nothing but a confederate flag, lol. I live on the coast of Mississippi, it's forward thinking, populated by all walks of life, all manner of people. But head just 100 miles north of here, there's Klan, there's white-only populations, there's places you just don't want to be if you're not white. And definitely no Yankees! (Which I am technically, being from Boston, originally.)

Anyway, Savior, I'm hesitant to endorse an ideological change of heart based on ONE book, but perhaps it has some merit, so I'll read it nonetheless, but just saying I'm skeptical her viewpoint will successfully challenge the viewpoints of so many other scholars and historians.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Is that why? There are a lot of African Americans in my neighborhood, but I don't see any KKK around here.
That is because the KKK is pretty much dead. There still are some KK members out there, but nothing like it was way back when.


I was talking about the flag. The war was just a part of that.



What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with anything I just said.
There is no number there and thus not a response to you.
That is a simple statement.


I encourage that you don't assume I misunderstand things. I'm not so clouded by bias that I can't think straight.

red
And I am not assuming anything, your posts prove that you do not know what you are talking about.

I live in the south and I kinda have to agree with saviorslegacy here. I mean, sure there are people still bitter about the war and sure there are some people that have dogmatic and racist points of views with their roots in the south. But the confederate war flag stands for rebellion against a greater power. I feel that the national government did slightly overstep its boundaries by telling people exactly what they can and can not do regardless of how righteous their intent was. And there is such a thing as southern hospitality and I've personally experienced much of it since moving from new jersey. And I even wear my yankee hat and yankee jerseys as a fan and a proud northerner. But not once have I been looked at bad or harrassed for who I am or where I came from. In fact I've been better received in the south then I was in the north where supposedly racism is less prominent.

I love how the people that have lived in the South are saying I am right and the people that haven't been down there are arguing. lol

What the ****? Swatchtiga? REALLY NOW?

Yah really

I just want to address this line, because I ****ing hate when people use this terrible comparison.

Guns are designed to kill people, and only to kill people. Spoons are not designed to kill people.
A butcher knife is design to cut meat....
People have had their meat cut by them and died before.... ban them.


Are you white?

red
I am German and Cherokee

Well, you could just say that Ohio currently has the highest amount of KKK members (IIRC).
Wait, isn't savior a conservative, religious republican who supports the confederacy from Ohio?

...hm...

I actually laughed when I read this. lol *all true
So a Northern state has the highest population of KKK........ did not know that.
It would make sense I guess. I have seen more racism in Southern Ohio than in anywhere else. It's stupid, people bump each with their grocery carts just to get at each other, blacks and whites alike.

There's some misunderstanding of history here.

First of all, to correct a wrong claim, Texas was a slave holding state. Every single state that seceded from the union was a slave state, though a few states that were slave states didn't secede (Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware). Also, a group of counties of Virginia broke off from the rest of the state in their refusal to secede (forming the state now known as "West Virginia").
Oops, my bad. When Mexico still owned Texas it was not a slave state/province, but when it was admitted to the Union there was a huge debate over if it should or should not be a slave state.

The causes of the Civil War are complex and controversial among historians, but some basics haven't been brought up. Tariffs were a historic point of conflict; the government had for many years pursued policies of high tariffs which were beneficial to the industrial North but detrimental to the agricultural South. It was quite a few years before the Civil War, but the nullification crisis is an event some people here might want to read up on (it happened during the presidency of Andrew Jackson).
good point
Tariffs show that the North was.... selfish in some ways. Coulhoon (or however you spell his name) even resigned as vice president over tariffs.

Furthermore, the expansion into the West was creating huge problems in terms of the balance of power. From the early days of the union, there had been a rough balance between slave states and free states, largely as a matter of coincidence. New territories were routinely integrated along geographic lines (Alabama and such becoming slave, Illinois and such becoming free). This balance first became a notable issue at the time of the Missouri Compromise, at such a time as Missouri was going to enter the union as a slave state and create one more slave state than free. The solution was to make Maine a separate state (up to that point, it had bizarrely been a part of Massachusetts) and to create more firm rules governing the territories.

However, the slave south was soon to suffer two fairly crushing blows whose exact sequence I can't remember. One was that California, to the distant west, entered the union as a free state. It was pretty far south, but slavery was just not catching on in the West. Secondly, Kansas wanted to enter the union as a free state. Kansas and Nebraska were divided as they were under the assumption that eventually Kansas would enter the union as a slave state while Nebraska would probably be free. This was representative of some major shifting of power as you may note. Now the free states had a big majority.
I think California was first and then everything else followed.

Politically, the only way peace was maintained was by a series of victories by fairly weak Democratic candidates and the death of the Whig party as a legitimate political force. A growing free soil movement in the North was basically an attack on the long term political power of the South, and it came to the tipping point around the election of 1860. Historically notable president Abraham Lincoln was running under the newly formed Republican Party, which was representative of the free soil movement (a note for the confused: the Democrats and Republicans started to "switch sides" somewhere in-between Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, though the full transition took about half a century). His main Democratic opponent was Stephen Douglas, a fairly major politician of the day who was stuck in the unenviable position of trying to garner Southern support while still getting votes from the North. He ended up saying some things in debates with Lincoln that alienated most of the South, which then supported a few third party candidates who were completely unviable outside of the South. We can guess how this goes. Lincoln wins every single free state and none of the South which is more than half of the electoral college. Douglas wins just Missouri (one of the few times Missouri supports a loser). The random third parties split the South. This makes things very clear; the South does not have the power to control national policy any more, and in the long run, Lincoln represents a movement that will eventually destroy the South's way of life (for which slavery was crucial). South Carolina, always at the forefront of controversy, starts the ball rolling, and after heated internal debates, most of the remaining slave states join it. Due to cultural reasons, most of the good generals of the day are from the South as well which allows the militarily radically inferior South to hang on for as long as it did.
Another thing that allowed them to hold on longer was Lincoln was afraid for his reputation. When General Sherman marched to Atlanta he burned down the city and devastated the South. He was then going to set his sites on Savannah (a city that had a lot to do with foreign trade... and still does). Lincoln requested that he not march to Savannah and wait for his reelection. Sherman did just this and thus post pone the South's doom. When Sherman ultimately began his march to Savannah Lee had already surrendered.

I think I've been objective and non-judgmental here, but I get a sense that at least some people weren't aware of all of this and/or didn't understand it very well. This is the very short version of decades of history and a conflict that had its roots honestly as far back as the initial founding of the country and to some extent persists today (though in muted form). Slavery was obviously a central point because it was the defining characteristic of the South's economic model and ultimately social structure, but to say the war was or was not over slavery is a bit of a simplification. It was more about a way of life; it wasn't until the 1960s that non-black people began to agree that the interests of blacks were a particularly relevant concern (few anti-slavery advocates argued black people should be given equal rights to whites, which to me is a good sign they weren't very legitimate in their concern that black people were being treated unfairly).

red
When I said "it was not over slavery" I was attacking the bias opinion "the war was over slavery". Slavery did have a part, but it wasn't even close to being the sum of it all.
I was actually quite impressed by your post.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I love how the people that have lived in the South are saying I am right and the people that haven't been down there are arguing. lol

First off, that's called bias.

Anyway, for the record, my father was born and raised in Texas, and that entire side of my family is from Texas.
My father left Texas because he was sick of the constant stream of ignorant minded racists he met in the south. All of his black friends (which were plenty) were treated poorly.
I could show you some of the horrible things my aunt has said about black people. I could go and search for the email she sent us all about how "black people are useless and inferior in every way except for basketball."

My point is that your experiences in the south are not the same as what everyone else experiences. Especially because you're white.

 

[BBQTV]

you know to me the south is north, since i live in miami i have to go north to get to the south! also this my be b.s but i've heard that if a civil war ever broke out (which probably wont happen) florida would be on the north's side!

 

[saviorslegacy]

First off, that's called bias.

Anyway, for the record, my father was born and raised in Texas, and that entire side of my family is from Texas.
My father left Texas because he was sick of the constant stream of ignorant minded racists he met in the south. All of his black friends (which were plenty) were treated poorly.
I could show you some of the horrible things my aunt has said about black people. I could go and search for the email she sent us all about how "black people are useless and inferior in every way except for basketball."

My point is that your experiences in the south are not the same as what everyone else experiences. Especially because you're white.

I haven't been to Texas. Texas could be different when compared to the rest of the south.

If you have encountered racism than I am sorry. I do not like racism, I think it is wrong.
My family (excluding my moms brother, her father and all of his brothers) are not racist. The one mentioned in parentheses are racist though. My uncle is an actually Nazi and calls black ******s. Then again, I don't exactly hang around them that much, if you get my drift.

In southern Ohio however, there are a lot of racist acts. I mean, there are no killings, but there is defiantly racism around here. It isn't just whites though, there are racist blacks here too. There are like 3 different kinds of people. #1 the racist white. #2 the racist black. #3 the guy who thinks it is stupid and gets along fine with either blacks or whites.
People throw eggs on each others cars. A black guy pulled up in front of our house once and turned his rap alllll of the way up. I was trying to do school work and his loud music was annoying me. Mom went outside and asked him to leave and he cussed at her and left.
Then again, the whites around here slash their tires and key their cars.
So basically there is a small racist war. I try to stay out of it. Not only do I think it is wrong, but I don't feel like paying for a repair bill for something, or a hospital visit.


Anyways, my point is, racism is everywhere and it's not just against you blacks anymore, it is also against whites.
Do I think that all of the blacks and all of the whites in southern Ohio are racists? Hell no!
I have known some very nice black people and so very nice white people. This area is nice, as long as you avoid the bad areas (central westside, north west urban, south and central portsmouth and east wheelersburg). I live in the western edge of westside, so I do see a little bit of racism. lol

I do not, however, know the extent of the racism that your father and his friends recieved.

you know to me the south is north, since i live in miami i have to go north to get to the south! also this my be b.s but i've heard that if a civil war ever broke out (which probably wont happen) florida would be on the north's side!

Florida, IMO, is like the second California.
They are so similar it's not even funny. I personally love Florida. I got to go sailing and scuba diving when I was down there last month.
Anna Maria Island probably has more boats on it than cars! I love how there is like a street made of water that goes by everyones houses. I also like how there are docks at the grocers and the fishing place. The best part is, however, the boat gas station. That was just so cool for me. lol

 

[Melomaniacal]

To be clear, I am white (my avatar is a picture of Tyrant for anyone who didn't know). My father was in the Jazz scene for most of his life, which (especially in that time and place) consisted mostly of African Americans.

But yes, racism unfortunately exists everywhere, but you'll be hard-pressed to try and argue that the south is generally less racist than the north.

Also, savior, I think you're going to have a hard time convincing people that you are not racist, given your political/philosophical/religious points of view. I'll take your word for it, but I'm just saying... the stereotypes add up. Gun activist, far right republican, religious, and now sporting a confederate flag (icing on the cake). Again, I'll take your word for it, but... yeah, I think you get it.

 

[Lythium]

Saviors, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't buy it. The Confederate flag might mean something to you other than racism and white supremacy, but history would indicate that it will continue to carry those connotations.

Your swastika (yes, that is how you spell it) argument is moot.

 

[Romulox2010]

@melomaniacal I'm latino born in the U.S. and as I've said I have met some people the have had some harsh words for me based on my race but they are far less in number than those who have accepted me with open arms. But yes there is truth in both arguments in regards to the flag and I believe the flag does have a mixed heritage and is often frowned upon but as with the character of the people I've met in the south you just can't make a sweeping generalization something. I suggest that you do follow saviorslegacy advice and look into the meaning of the flag a little further and then if you still hold your opinion of the flag as mostly racist and offensive well stand by your belief since at that point you would have a broader perspective on this subject. Again I really hope I don't offend anyone, my intention isn't to call anyone ignorant or shortsighted this is all just a suggestion and my point of view and you can feel free to ignore it entirely if you feel like it.

 

[§witch]

Saviors, I get what you're trying to say, but I don't buy it. The Confederate flag might mean something to you other than racism and white supremacy, but history would indicate that it will continue to carry those connotations.

Your swastika (yes, that is how you spell it) argument is moot.

You saved me from having to spell it out for him. Thanks.

 

[Melomaniacal]

@Romulox2010:
Savior did a fine job explaining the other meanings to the flag, and no one is denying that it has other meanings, but that barely matters when slavery and racism are still strong meanings behind it.
I wouldn't go around wearing a swastika because it originally stood for peace, and I wouldn't go around with a confederate flag because it also stands for rebellion in addition to white supremacy and slavery.

 

[BBQTV]

not only that but the public will hate you

 

[Melomaniacal]

not only that but the public will hate you

Especially if you take into consideration his other points of view. If I were him and I didn't want people to think I was racist, one of the very last things I would do is outwardly support the confederacy, and hang a confederate flag in my room.

 

[Romulox2010]

Well you are right it can be pretty offensive to a lot of people and I wouldn't blame people if they did get mad at someone for flaunting it around. Basically all I want to say is that the south has come along way since times of slavery and the thought that the south is predominantly racist is as realistic as the thought that almost all latinos are illegal immigrants that's really why I got all caught up in this argument and its the only point I truly wanted to get across. Sure the confederate flag might have a small positive side in the thought of southern pride but that is another story and another topic for me and everyone is free to interpret the flag as they please and in the end we each look at it with our own light.

 

[Melomaniacal]

Well you are right it can be pretty offensive to a lot of people and I wouldn't blame people if they did get mad at someone for flaunting it around. Basically all I want to say is that the south has come along way since times of slavery and the thought that the south is predominantly racist is as realistic as the thought that almost all latinos are illegal immigrants that's really why I got all caught up in this argument and its the only point I truly wanted to get across. Sure the confederate flag might have a small positive side in the thought of southern pride but that is another story and another topic for me and everyone is free to interpret the flag as they please and in the end we each look at it with our own light.

So... it's okay for me to flaunt a swastika around because at one point in time it represented peace?

 

[Romulox2010]

So... it's okay for me to flaunt a swastika around because at one point in time it represented peace?

I find that statement a bit extreme /sarcasm. Of course its wrong to flaunt out a swastika it was the symbol for a group of extremists the killed 6 million jews. Look I'm all I'm trying to say is the south isn't as racist as it once was. If they confederate flag is that offensive to you the **** it. But like the swastika it also stood for something else at one time. Maybe its too late to remember the one positive thing it stood for at once or maybe its easier to forget about that idk. The confederate flag isn't really offensive to me personally since the people I've seen waving it around haven't done me wrong. But I can see how it can be offensive to people but w/e I can already tell that a touchy subject like this will never have an answer untill the government bans it which probably won't happen.

 

[Melomaniacal]

I find that statement a bit extreme /sarcasm. Of course its wrong to flaunt out a swastika it was the symbol for a group of extremists the killed 6 million jews. Look I'm all I'm trying to say is the south isn't as racist as it once was. If they confederate flag is that offensive to you the **** it. But like the swastika it also stood for something else at one time. Maybe its too late to remember the one positive thing it stood for at once or maybe its easier to forget about that idk. The confederate flag isn't really offensive to me personally since the people I've seen waving it around haven't done me wrong. But I can see how it can be offensive to people but w/e I can already tell that a touchy subject like this will never have an answer untill the government bans it which probably won't happen.

The swastika was a symbol for peace before it was a symbol for Nazi's. The confederate flag, just like the swastika, represents different things, some good, some bad. So... if it's okay to flaunt the confederate flag because it has different meanings, why isn't it okay to flaunt the swastika?

 

[Lythium]

@Romulox: I'm not into arguing on the Internet, but by your logic, it seems like you do think it's okay.

Just saying.

@Switch: No problem.