What would you change about Greninja?

[FullMoon]

To elaborate on why Greninja being able to hold a shuriken charge would be broken:

1 - It's transcedent priority, which means there's no way of stopping it once it's fired outside of reflecting/pocketing it

2 - It combos into a lot of Greninja's moves (Dash grab, F-Air, N-Air, B-Air, Up-Air, Up-Smash, Shadow Sneak... Some might not be a true combo but still an useful string)

3 - It can kill by itself

4 - It can hit people holding on the ledge.

5 - Due to it being multi-hit, we can grab people who shield it or even bait a dodge to get a free punish.

6 - It's a very good edgeguarding tool

Charged shuriken is just way too good for Greninja to be allowed to store the charge and then be able to fire it quickly and give the opponent a lot less time to react to it. Just the fact that Greninja is holding on to a shuriken charge would make most other characters to really need to respect him because it's just that good. It deals good damage on it's own, can be followed upon with a lot of things in varying percentages, can't be stopped, kills at a good % especially if you can get someone on the edge with it and not even shielding it is safe.

I'm pretty sure charged Water Shuriken is the best projectile in the game bar none and letting Greninja be able to safely spam it would be really broken.

 

[Rokk Hero]

All of those are true, but I don't think it's broken because most of those reasons also apply to other characters with held projectiles. They are not broken even though their fully charged projectiles have much more range and travel faster.

The only real differences are that FWS is multi-hit and it can't be absorbed by Ness / G&W.

I don't know for sure if Samus's Charge Shot or WFT Sun Salutation can hit those on the ledge, but Lucario's Aura Sphere definitely can after his aura buffs kick in.

Not giving your opponent as much time to react to the held FWS is the whole point. If you're facing a Lucario and accidentally let him fully charge his Aura Sphere you better be ready to do something about that otherwise you'll be eating Aura breakfast lunch and dinner. Characters with fully charged held projectiles also glow or have other visual cues that let you know they have it and can throw it out whenever they want, so it's not like it will be coming out of nowhere, they'll know you have it and should be expecting it. Will it be broken? No. Will it need to be respected? Absolutely, as it should be.

 

[MASTER719]

With all the nerfs he's gotten I'd love to see a charged Shuriken become holdable.

 

[HvEVIL]

Ya for me it's not a question of broken or not. I just wanna hold some charged water shurikens.

 

[MASTER719]

Crouch Cancel dash

 

[#Drift108]

• Decrease lag on ftilt
• Increase horizontal range on dtilt
• Less ending lag on aerials
• decrease landing lag of bair but decrease knockback and percentage

 

[MASTER719]

Greninja doesn't need any more knockback reduced.

 

[Jiggly]

I'm pretty sure he just needs a nerf.

 

[chuckthesmashlover]

I'm pretty sure he just needs a nerf.

Greninja doesn't need any nerfs.

 

[Onyxsbayne]

Greninja doesn't need any nerfs.

Substitute is too broken, also more endlag on his Up Smash.

 

[chuckthesmashlover]

Substitute is too broken, also more endlag on his Up Smash.

There's nothing broken about Greninja.

 

[Jaguar360]

Greninja doesn't need any nerfs.

I think it's just a joke. It's a popular meme now since Greninja's gotten nerfed every patch.

 

[chuckthesmashlover]

I think it's just a joke. It's a popular meme now since Greninja's gotten nerfed every patch.

I figured it was.

 

[MASTER719]

Greninja Wishlist

Dair > UpB
Overall lag reduction to B
Uair hitboxes fixed
Fair knockback increase

Spoiler

Hold charged Shurikens

Not unreasonable

 

[InvaderSkoodge]

Besides what has been said about the reasonable changes, some will disagree, but I would like his short hop to be about 20% less, so he could increase his combo game by having less time before an aerial attack.

 

[Coffee™]

Shuriken's are all I really want back but it would be nice to see his Utilt and Ftilt speeds buffed a bit.

 

[UseHydroPimp]

An original side smash, to close to upsmash for my liking.

 

[chuckthesmashlover]

An original side smash, to close to upsmash for my liking.

It uses water katanas for all of its smash attacks because it's a ninja. There's no reason to change it.

 

[MASTER719]

Anyone have the frame data on the original Greninja?

 

[bc1910]

Anyone have the frame data on the original Greninja?

I don't have the exact startup - active - endlag numbers for these, but in 1.0.4, Shurikens got 7 frames of added ending lag and Up Smash got 10 frames of added ending lag. Shadow Sneak actually got less ending lag, I can't remember the exact number but I think it was 10 frames as well. Besides that, Greninja's frame data didn't change, he just got a bunch of knockback/damage nerfs to Uair, Fair, Hydro Pump and Usmash. Dsmash bizzarely got a damage buff and knockback nerf.

 

[Poppy JR.]

I would've liked to see a quicker, less laggy side tilt. I feel that one problem I have with Greninja is finding fast, low-lag punishes, even though the side tilt has great range. A favorite quick punish of mine is an uncharged Water Shuriken, but even that sometimes comes out to slow, and if used grounded, it renders you immobile. Capitalizing with Greninja sure is hard, sometimes.

Something about Greninja's moveset seems like you have to buy a wedding ring for almost every attack, because there's just a ton of commitment. Of course, that just means you have to think a bit before throwing out a smash attack or something. I just wish there were easier moves to hit and run with.

I'm just splitting hairs at this point, but am I the only one that would love to see his down-taunt buffed a bit? Pulling a down-taunt to an attack is super fun on your friends, but I'd love to see it have some kind of special property. Could you imagine if the taunt forced opponents caught in it to immediately go into free-fall, while retaining their momentum? You could even gimp with it in certain situations, given good timing. I understand that it's mostly for comedy value and showboating, but giving it some utility would be awesome.

 

[Spiralviper]

Fix Dtilt > Standing Grab so it doesn't whiff on.

That's the only thing I would want that isn't already covered...

...except less knockback on Utilt.

 

[Mew2Kid]

Reduce the endlag from f-air, b-air, n-air, and Shadow Sneak. That's about it. I like everything else the way it is.

 

[Plague_2]

I think the biggest issue with Greninja is that his frame data is pretty poor. His moves tend to either have lots of startup lag or lots of endlag. So, here is my list.

* Bair - Decrease landing lag and increase hitstun on the first two hits

* Nair - Super armor on startup, reduced knockback growth

* Fair - Increased knockback growth for more reliable KOs

* Uair - Autolinks but has more hits before the final blow

* Dair - Can be canceled at any time by Hydro Pump

* Dtilt - reduced knockback growth

* Ftilt - whole new move pls

* Utilt - reduced endlag

* Jab - First jab comes out quickly and repeatedly like Captain Falcon or Little Mac

* Shurikens - reduce lag altogether

 

[DrizzyDrew]

nair not kill me off the stage lol

 

[Deleted member]

• Anything closer to pre-patch shurikens
• No more Nair SDs
• No more bouncing off the ledge with Hydro Pump, or at least let you Hydro Pump again (like Ness)
• A little faster standing grab startup
• Uair being fixed so you always get the last hit unless you fast fall (keep FF Uair)

That's all he really needs. If you wanted some unnecessary buffs because reasons then he would get better frame data all around and be able to hold the charge of the best projectile in the game.

 

[Funkermonster]

Give him an alternate costume with this helmet:

♪Super Fighting Robot, Greninja!♪
♪Super Fighting Robot, Greninja!♪
♫Fiiiiiiiiighting to save......... THE WORLD!♫

 

[NocturnalQuill]

I'd love for Fair to come out quicker. Then again, I'm used to Ness' almost instant Fair. God I love that move.

 

[Blaziking17]

It would be really awesome if Nair had less end lag. It still amazes me every time that it takes so long to get out of the animation. LOL

 

[NocturnalQuill]

It would be really awesome if Nair had less end lag. It still amazes me every time that it takes so long to get out of the animation. LOL

How are you even supposed to use Nair? I hear it's some core move, but the lag is insane.

 

[Deleted member]

How are you even supposed to use Nair? I hear it's some core move, but the lag is insane.

You can use it to cross up shields or to start/end combos. The only time you can start combos with it is while you land with it, fast falling can also help. You can get Nair into a lot of moves at a range of percents with the sweet or sourspot like Utilt, Fsmash, Usmash, Fair, Footstool (then one of Greninja's crazy footstool combos), Dtilt, and Bair. Maybe more but its hard to remember off the top of my head.

It lags forever in the air for whatever reason but has little landing lag so it starts combos.

 

[Blaziking17]

How are you even supposed to use Nair? I hear it's some core move, but the lag is insane.

The key is to use a Short Hop Fast Falling Nair on ground. Once you get the tech down, it can be effective as a combo starter. I would be careful if the opponent likes to shield-grab. It will be free damage for them, so make sure to play patiently and capitalize where you can. Mix up your approaches with short hopping.

 

[gyasim]

I'd either give him faster nairs and fairs or not make him a fast faller.
D throw would have decreased horizontal knockback
U throw would have increased knockback.
Give him a faster grab.
Give him a counter that isn't terrible or replace substitute with something better like Night Slash, which could be like Marth's Shield Breaker since his grab is worse than Toon Links.
Increased knockback on d smash or up air.

 

[Jmacz]

-Less Lag on Shurikens

-Less Lag on Standing grab

-More active frames on Substitute

-Less lag on Nair/Fair

-Slightly more knock back on Uair/Fair

-Fair's hit box should match the animation.

-Pre-Patch Hydro Pump would be nice, but I'm assuming that was to OP.

 

[Illusion.]

-Faster Shuriken
-Faster Substitute
-Cancel Dair in midair by inputting it again

 

[Snackss]

Only one Greninja at EVO was awful. I don't know what else can be done to indicate that Greninja needs more.

-Badly needs faster shuriken. As a fast character with no instant or long-lasting hitboxes, the shuriken is the centerpiece of his neutral game. It needs to not require perfection to be effective.

-Neutral air endlag should match the animation. I don't understand why it has a full second of recovery frames.

-Down tilt needs less knockback growth. Too many of Greninja's setups don't even seem to work against half of the cast.

-Make forward air faster or give it more KO power.

-Give up air back its vacuum effect while still keeping the spike. Samus should have this change too. I don't know why Sheik is the only character who gets to have this.

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm not going to add a lot of ridiculous buffs for almost a solid character, so less startup on shadow sneak and dair travelling less distance so you can edgeguard with it without sding.

 

[bc1910]

QoL changes:

• Reduced ending lag on Dsmash by 5-7 frames
• Move Dsmash charge window from frame 5 to frame 11
• Pummel made slightly quicker
• Jab 2 damage increase to 2.5% so whole jab combo deals 8.1% up from 7.1
• Utilt damage increase to 6%, keep knockback the same
• Ftilt damage increase to 8.5%
• Uair 5th hit changed back to autolink angle
  
• Slightly less ending lag on Dair so it can be used from full hop height on FD/Omega stages and not result in an SD, it works this way on 3DS

Moderate buffs:

• Grab startup reduced from 13f to 5-7f (reduce range if necessary because the grab is disjointed, but not by much, this really needs to happen, a 14f grab is ridiculous)
• Increase damage on all throws. Bthrow and Fthrow up to 10%, Dthrow up to 9%, Uthrow up to 6%. Adjust knockback on all throws so it is kept the same
• Slightly less ending lag on Uthrow so it true combos for longer
• Slightly less startup lag on Fair
• Usmash sides damage increased to 12%, allow the knockback increase
• Reduce startup lag on Ftilt, Utilt and Dash Attack by 2 frames, 3 frames and 3 frames respectively
• Substitute to activate faster on hit so people can't just shield it.

Big buffs:

• Decrease ending lag on Water Shuriken by 7 frames
• Decrease ending lag on Up Smash by 10 frames
• Significantly decrease ending lag on Dthrow so it can be used for combos, but raise launch angle so it doesn't combo into Up Smash at all. Keep damage at 6%
• Fsmash damage increased to 15%, allow knockback increase
• Reduce ending lag on Dtilt by a few frames, slightly raise launch angle and decrease knockback, maybe slightly increase hitstun, to make Dtilt true combo into Usmash and Fair more reliably

Some ideas. A smattering of these would be great. Perhaps 1 or 2 from each list.

 

[Cerealisyummy5]

Subsitute buff. A bit less lag on Shurikens. Less lag on standing grab.

He's already a solid character. All he really needs tbh.

 

[iVoltage]

I want more tongue oriented moves its sorta his thing. Also you know how funny it would be for greninja to grab people with his tongue and wail on them. Oh and yeah rebuff his upsmash and surikens pls.