What would you change about Greninja?

[DD_]

+1 for general consensus of less lag on projectile and faster grab startup. Butter me with this and i'll be happy :D

 

[StaticShock]

• Less startup on SS
• Less startup on standing grab

Maybe less end-lag on Nair and change substitute in some way to make it more viable.

 

[Space thing]

Make Substitute's counter attack unblockable and give it invincibility. I mean, countering Lucas's Usmash can actually result in Greninja still getting hit. Things like that are dumb consider counters like Shulk's exist. Though I suppose our Usmash can do the same thing to other counters sometimes. At least those ones actually work most of the time.

Aaaaaand that's it I think. I was thinking maybe make Uair's last hit connect better, but that might ruin Uair spike stuff, idk, so yea, either way.

Improve Substitute in some way and we're pretty much perfect.

 

[LRodC]

Improve standing grab and make substitute a little bit faster. Also, get rid of hydro pump bouncing off the stage. Other than those, I think Greninja's pretty much perfect as is right now.

 

[Makani]

Improve standing grab and make substitute a little bit faster. Also, get rid of hydro pump bouncing off the stage. Other than those, I think Greninja's pretty much perfect as is right now.

As much as I hate Hydro pump bouncing off stage I think it would be a bit too OP after thinking about it recently... I think the bounce should be modified for sure though because times when i'm sure i've sweetspotted the ledge I ended up bouncing off to my death. I definitely think Substitute should be changed though, the activation frames on it need to be longer for sure or atleast sooner compared to other counters.

 

[LRodC]

As much as I hate Hydro pump bouncing off stage I think it would be a bit too OP after thinking about it recently... I think the bounce should be modified for sure though because times when i'm sure i've sweetspotted the ledge I ended up bouncing off to my death. I definitely think Substitute should be changed though, the activation frames on it need to be longer for sure or atleast sooner compared to other counters.

How would it be OP exactly? Plenty of good recoveries don't bounce off the stage. As far as I know, only Greninja, Mewtwo, and Diddy have this issue (with Diddy's being a signature part of it) and it bothers the hell out of me. You have safe recoveries that easily sweetspot the ledge like Zelda and Sheik that are both more dangerous than any of these.

 

[UnSaxon51]

How would it be OP exactly? Plenty of good recoveries don't bounce off the stage. As far as I know, only Greninja, Mewtwo, and Diddy have this issue (with Diddy's being a signature part of it) and it bothers the hell out of me. You have safe recoveries that easily sweetspot the ledge like Zelda and Sheik that are both more dangerous than any of these.

A few other characters have similar issues, but they either have alternate recoveries to make up for it (Pac-Man and Luigi for example) or they get their Up-B back to try again (Mother boys).
Mewtwo's is more an issue of being pushed in the wrong direction, which is still just as aggravating, but for a very different reason.


Greninja only NEEDS two things in my opinion:

1. Remove/change wall-bounce from Hydro Pump
2. Reduce endlag of Nair

Anything else would be nice to have, but these are the two biggest offenders.

 

[Makani]

How would it be OP exactly? Plenty of good recoveries don't bounce off the stage. As far as I know, only Greninja, Mewtwo, and Diddy have this issue (with Diddy's being a signature part of it) and it bothers the hell out of me. You have safe recoveries that easily sweetspot the ledge like Zelda and Sheik that are both more dangerous than any of these.

If the bounce became a wall cling instead it would be pretty OP on stages with vertical walls like Lucario's recovery but it would be better because of Shadow Sneak, you'd only have to shoot for the wall instead of to the ledge and jump up after the wall cling. Don't get me wrong, I hate it just as much as anyone else, but I don't think the bounce should be removed, the ledge properties should just be modified so sweetspotting it actually becomes a sweetspot. Either that or change the angle to a slimmer, more narrow angle that causes the bounce to occur.

 

[LRodC]

I think a good compromise would be to give the bounce less lag so that it's not extremely detrimental to Greninja if he hits a wall. After he bounces off, he should be able to use it one more time, similar to Ness and Lucas.

 

[FullMoon]

People just don't understand the bouncing do they? lol.

It's not just something that only Greninja has to go through, both Pac-Man and Lucario have the same issue of bouncing off (Pac-Man's happen with his side-b though). Both Lucario and Greninja fall to their death if their Up-B bounces off the ledge but depending of the stage walls they can survive by clinging to the wall and jumping.

It's annoying, but it's consistent and the problem is less with the moves themselves and more with the ledge. If you want it to be gone, don't say "make Hydro Pump not bounce off the ledge" (or "fix" since some people seem to think it's a glitch, which just baffles me) and instead say "fix the ledges so they don't make Hydro Pump/Extremespeed/Power Pellet bounce off them"

The wallbouncing aspect makes sense and is obviously intended and definitely won't go anywhere. Making Greninja be able to use Hydro Pump after bouncing off would just make his recovery completely broken because then he can intentionally ram into the stage to get the extra distance boost like Ness and Lucas can, but unlike those two Hydro Pump is a lot safer and faster.

 

[Grizzlpaw]

His idle animations. They're too damn good. It's distracting >__>

 

[bc1910]

Well according to ESAM and this extremely credible Japanese tier list we're still bad/painfully average so I guess more buffs are in order guys!

In all seriousness I don't think we need anything else but a frame 8 grab would be amazing. Even a 10 frame grab would be nice so we don't grab slower than most tethers, but our fastest OoS option is already frame 10 so it wouldn't make a huge difference there.

You know what I really want for Greninja, even though it wouldn't help him that much? Our old crouch back haha. It just doesn't make sense any more, you can hit the air above his head... All the jab combos he used to get out of for free have been patched to link better on everyone, so why does he still need the hurtbox nerf? Giving him back the old crouch really wouldn't affect him from a balance perspective it would just, y'know, make sense visually.

I do think Fair should get a startup lag buff of 2-3 frames. 16 frame startup is pretty excessive for an aerial with knockback that's good-but-not-stellar, and 13-14 frames would still be pretty slow, it just brings it back from that reactable range. Also this would make Dthrow Fair a lot more guaranteed. Less ending lag on Dthrow would also be nice since it still barely combos into anything but it'd have to launch higher to stop Dthrow Usmash from true comboing, and less startup on Fair would give us a great Dthrow combo anyway.

As always, reversing some of the old nerfs would be great. Usmash ending lag, Fair power, Uair linking properly etc, but none of it is really necessary now. His most important tool got buffed and I can live with the other nerfs.

Honestly I think what we need the most is for Sheik to be nerfed and about 80% of the cast needs that.

 

[FullMoon]

His idle animations. They're too damn good. It's distracting >__>

Greninja's animations too op.

Well according to ESAM and this extremely credible Japanese tier list we're still bad/painfully average so I guess more buffs are in order guys!

In all seriousness I don't think we need anything else but a frame 8 grab would be amazing. Even a 10 frame grab would be nice so we don't grab slower than most tethers, but our fastest OoS option is already frame 10 so it wouldn't make a huge difference there.

You know what I really want for Greninja, even though it wouldn't help him that much? Our old crouch back haha. It just doesn't make sense any more, you can hit the air above his head... All the jab combos he used to get out of for free have been patched to link better on everyone, so why does he still need the hurtbox nerf? Giving him back the old crouch really wouldn't affect him from a balance perspective it would just, y'know, make sense visually.

I do think Fair should get a startup lag buff of 2-3 frames. 16 frame startup is pretty excessive for an aerial with knockback that's good-but-not-stellar, and 13-14 frames would still be pretty slow, it just brings it back from that reactable range. Also this would make Dthrow Fair a lot more guaranteed. Less ending lag on Dthrow would also be nice since it still barely combos into anything but it'd have to launch higher to stop Dthrow Usmash from true comboing, and less startup on Fair would give us a great Dthrow combo anyway.

Honestly I think what we need the most is for Sheik to be nerfed and about 80% of the cast needs that.

Maybe we could try spreading awareness of those wonky hurtboxes, I mean this became known among us just recently.

I could make a montage of it or something lol.

 

[bc1910]

That would actually be really good IMO. Just showing how silly it looks. Falco's laser hitting the air above Greninja's head is pretty funny.

You can also do stuff like have Greninja stand behind Pikachu and have Fox fire short hop lasers. They'll miss Pikachu but hit Greninja despite the fact he's clearly not as tall in his idle stance.

If you have a 3DS you can delete all the patches and show things like Falco's laser missing crouching Greninja in 1.0.0.

 

[FullMoon]

That would actually be really good IMO. Just showing how silly it looks. Falco's laser hitting the air above Greninja's head is pretty funny.

You can also do stuff like have Greninja stand behind Pikachu and have Fox fire short hop lasers. They'll miss Pikachu but hit Greninja despite the fact he's clearly not as tall in his idle stance.

If you have a 3DS you can delete all the patches and show things like Falco's laser missing crouching Greninja in 1.0.0.

I have no way of recording 3DS gameplay unfortunately, it's also hard to manipulate the CPU in the 3DS since obviously there's no way to change the training dummy into being controllable.

I'll try to work on this later, maybe I'll just add a bit that says "You know what's funnier? These attacks missed him before the first patch." or something.

I have serious doubts they're going to backpedal with the hurtbox changes whatever the reason they did it when Greninja is not even the worst offender when it comes to crouching to dodge stuff, but hey at least poking some fun at it should be funny.

But as far as I know Greninja is the only character with wonky hurtboxes like this so who knows.

 

[bc1910]

I might be able to record the 1.0.0 3DS gameplay. Quality won't be great though since I can only record with my phone.

It's pretty easy to get Level 9 CPU Falco to shoot lasers at you. Literally just crouch at a distance and he'll start firing them. Fox as well. I could probably record Greninja avoiding Fox and Falco lasers by crouching.

 

[FullMoon]

If you can do that just send me the clips once you do it.

I'll see if I can get something done today or tomorrow.

 

[Lawliet626]

honestly everything everyone else said, and id like a bit more shield pushback for the nair

 

[Doom Bot]

I would just like to see the removal of the up-B ledge bounce.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

I'd give him at least one out of shield option (probably by improving his standing grab). The fact that there's nothing you can do to punish somebody who hits your shield aside from drop shield and jab drops him a tier. I'd decrease lag on his aerials, I'd get rid of the pointless up-B bounce, I'd decrease the end-lag on his second jab (make it more like fox's as it would improve his footstool game) and I'd make his down B do something... because right now it's one of the worst moves in the game

 

[Makani]

I'd make his down B do something... because right now it's one of the worst moves in the game

The only "bad" thing about it is the activation frames for it, Greninja's counter is an amazing move that can net you a kill as early as 60% on some characters that aren't heavy. The activation frames could definitely come out on earlier frames or be extended a few frames to match every other counter that comes out sooner frames and have longer activation period.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

well the only way you are gonna be getting 60% kills on a good player is if you know exactly when they are going to be using a move with a lot of end leg. If not, you really shouldn't be getting kills unless the player doesn't know much about greninja and doesn't shield in time. It's a high risk move with a small chance of a big reward if the other player really messes up (that being said, styling on For glory Dedede noobs that up-B on stage is pretty fun)

 

[FullMoon]

Aim up and it's not even a big risk, Greninja flies so high after it most characters won't be able to reach him before he can act.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

it's a risk because of the fact that there's a tiny activation window and a lot of end lag. If you throw it out, you could get punished hard. It's usable but there's a reason you rarely see it used in tournaments.

 

[Makani]

That's why instead of changing it to something else it would be completely logical to just either extend the activation frames and/or make it activate on sooner frames like everyone else with counters, excluding Palutena's and Ike's, their's are the only counters that activates slower than Greninja's even though the activation frames on Ike's lasts longer.
I'd definitely love if Greninja's counter activated on frames 5 to 30, that'd make it easier to use without getting hit before the activation frames happen.

 

[E.D.N.D.N]

Yea I'd be fine with that change

 

[bc1910]

@ FullMoon Video done.

 

[YoshiMcSwaggins]

Like a lot of people said, I want his old 3DS shurikens back. But I would also want the 3DS Fair back (Killed earlier I think) and his Uair to connect the last hit more reliably. That wouldn't really ruin the Uair spike cuz they could make all the hit boxes spike except the last one.

However you mentioned what we would want in the next smash game if it happened. But I feel that out of all the characters, Greninja has a pretty high chance of being cut. I dunno why...

 

[bc1910]

Pokemon has the highest number of cut characters of any series represented in Smash, with 4 characters cut overall (though Mewtwo eventually returned).

Also, Pokemon become irrelevant quickly since they're constantly bringing out new generations so unless you become a fan favourite you don't have much staying power. Even Mewtwo, who was really popular, got cut from Brawl and the initial roster of Smash 4.

These factors make it seem more likely that Greninja will get cut in future games.

However, Lucario and Zard only found new relevancy with Mega Evolutions and Jigglypuff has been irrelevant for well over a decade, yet they're still around. Pichu may have been cut due to being a fairly pointless clone who wasn't popular enough for them to spend time on and Squirtle/Ivysaur's departure was likely down to PT getting cut due to the transformations. Also they weren't really relevant and the devs maybe didn't want to spend time on 8 Pokemon reps.

Greninja is a pretty popular Pokemon, probably the most popular in Gen VI even before his announcement for Smash, so I'm not sure how his relevancy will go. He's pretty unique as a character and since they've kept so many Pokemon veterans despite the high number of cuts, I wouldn't say he'll get cut for sure.

 

[FullMoon]

He does have the most potential of being cut though, as his inclusion in the game was only as a way to promote X/Y and so once a new generation begins he becomes irrelevant.

At the same time unique characters aren't usually cut (Mewtwo was taken out by time constraints, Ice Climbers were technical difficulties, Snake was copyright, Pokémon Trainer is also likely technical difficulties and only Zard ended up being salvaged since he was the more popular of the three by a longshot) so in a Smash 5 if Greninja isn't included in the initial roster he's probably gonna be DLC like Mewtwo.

 

[Scootch]

waaaayyy back I predicted ryu hayabusa,only to get disappointed.

Your prediction is now correct!
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

 

[Jaguar360]

Your prediction is now correct!
http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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

Version 1.1.1 changes:
- Ryu removed from the game
- Ryu Hayabusa added

(Jk they can coexist lol. I like both Ryus.)

Anyways, the only move/gameplay changes I want to see for Greninja now are fixing the wallbounce issue with Hydro Pump (whether by allowing him to use Hydro Pump again after a certain amount of time or just making it easier for Greninja to snap to the ledge) and an improvement to his OoS game (either a better standing grab or a faster aerial that hits in front of him).

Aesthetically, I don't have anything I want to add besides what is already in the OP.

 

[Kibzu~]

A few other characters have similar issues, but they either have alternate recoveries to make up for it (Pac-Man and Luigi for example) or they get their Up-B back to try again (Mother boys).
Mewtwo's is more an issue of being pushed in the wrong direction, which is still just as aggravating, but for a very different reason.


Greninja only NEEDS two things in my opinion:

1. Remove/change wall-bounce from Hydro Pump
2. Reduce endlag of Nair

Anything else would be nice to have, but these are the two biggest offenders.

I totally agree with this.
+ change the deadzone of up b and side b so they don't collide when you want up b but you get side b. :/

 

[Illusion.]

Auto cancel B-air anyone?

 

[Kibzu~]

Auto cancel B-air anyone?

Not needed lol.

 

[bc1910]

I'd take AC Bair but I feel it wouldn't accomplish much once people wised up to it - Bair can hit barely any standing characters so in reality it wouldn't wall anyone out who just walked or ran up to Greninja. It'd shut down short hop approaches well though.

With a new patch around the corner that may have balance changes, I'd like to see the following for Greninja:

• Grab startup needs to be slashed. It needs to be active on f6-8 like a normal grab. Nerf the range and ending lag if necessary, both are extremely good (Greninja's grab is average in terms of total frames but actually has just 13 frames of ending lag; the high startup ruins it).
• Reduce Fair startup. Putting it at around 11 frames to match Nair would be great but even around 13 frames would be fine. Enough to pull it back from that insanely slow, semi-reactable speed.
• Reduce Dthrow ending lag. The 50/50 we get right now is nice, but it's not consistent on every character and DI ruins it. I think Dthrow should get another ending lag buff, with the launch angle being made higher if necessary to stop it comboing into Up Smash at kill percent.
• Reduce Up Smash ending lag. I think the world is ready for prepatch Usmash. Or even without going the whole 10 frames, buff the ending lag by 5-7 frames or something.
• Reduce Water Shuriken ending lag. The move is way better than it used to be but still too sticky. Take 2 frames off the ending lag so that the whole move lasts for 43 frames, like prepatch.
• Fix our crouch!

I should reiterate though that I don't think Greninja NEEDS anything for himself at this point, quite frankly what he needs is for Sheik to get nerfed.

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

* Down throw is a combo throw at low percent
* Less ending lag on fair, nair, and shurikens
* Up throw kills earlier
* Better counter
* Ability to do actions while doing shadow sneak (Shield, Dash, and stop the attack completely)

 

[Y2Kay]

* Ability to do actions while doing shadow sneak (Shield, Dash, and stop the attack completely)

well that shadow sneak one is cool, but SS out of shield kinda seems broken (maybe?) but I would love a running shadow sneak!

 

[Curleh_Mustache]

I thought of few more things
* More knocback on Bair, Uair, and Up-smash sweetspot
* Better grab
* New Dair or less landing lag on it
*Better Ftilt
* Less startup frames on Fair
* Lower short hop for better approach options

 

[Snackss]

Greninja already got better forward tilt, though.

Why would lower short hop help?