Whats with people and Honor

[Orion*]

in game theory craft =/= pre game theory craft. i believe everyone should strive to be perfect in practice, but once the game starts we just do are best because we are humans, theres not really much else you can

edit: arent you deleware or soemthing close? you should come visit cyaniiide and me DD:

 

[Kole]

So you are delAware!

 

[Blacknight99923]

the marth boards are worthless other than pierce, who albeight is a great player is a theory fighter, so i dont really care about the worthless justification. speak for yourself please

the only people that rush down in melee just want to get grabbed, and getting grabbed = stock :/, everyone is like ICs the game is so bad



how is ganon anything better than beyond the worst character in the game. i dont see it honestly

people don't camp all day in melee for a reason, you even said you haven't played melee your not helping your agrument.


saying the marth boards is worthless is attacking me, which i take offence too. I to personally believe its in marth favor.


your basic idea is correct on paper but lacks the execution in the real world, please stop trying to justify it further then that

 

[adumbrodeus]

in game theory craft =/= pre game theory craft. i believe everyone should strive to be perfect in practice, but once the game starts we just do are best because we are humans, theres not really much else you can

edit: arent you deleware or soemthing close? you should come visit cyaniiide and me DD:

Fair enough, but the way I've always seen it is that it's possible to be near perfect in discrete areas, so it's best to illustrate the game with that assumption, and if an MU NEEDS something that requires near perfection, you can buckle down and train to that level.


Certainly, it's impossible to do it for everything, there's just too many aspects of the game. But if you're constantly getting beaten by one particular issue that isn't an issue at the top of the metagame, get to the top of the metagame in the area that counters it, you don't have to be at the top of the metagame in everything, just what you need for your circumstances.




For example, I've got an issue with melee falco because his lasers really mess my camp and approach game up, so my reaction? Learn to PS (which is really difficult in melee).



That's my thoughts on how to practically apply technical perfection to the real game.



And nah, I'm Beast Coast, LI NY to be precise. I'm around the NYC/NJ tournament scene when I can be, but school keeps me busy.




Also, yeah, in melee grab= stock only applies for low tiers and a select few cases, and the reality is there are few TRUE combos in melee, most depend on reading DI. Camping depends on the character and MU, most characters depend on a careful combination of camping and defensive play, not to mention camping in melee is generally more intense then in Brawl.

 

[Orion*]

you don't have to be at the top of the metagame in everything, just what you need for your circumstances.

well yeah but that doesnt mean thats not what you strive for. athletes, musicians, artists, people in general many times strive for perfection to be the best. it doesnt happen because there is human error, but look at the top people of any field, they are generally well rounded to do anything at top performance in their field or position

 

[Chaos Swordsman]

Why are you guys even arguing about this? This is tactical discussion, we're supposed to be talking about strategies, not the ethics behind them. I'm surprised this hasn't been locked, yet.

 

[adumbrodeus]

well yeah but that doesnt mean thats not what you strive for. athletes, musicians, artists, people in general many times strive for perfection to be the best. it doesnt happen because there is human error, but look at the top people of any field, they are generally well rounded to do anything at top performance in their field or position

Nah, obviously you should attempt perfection, but what is more important to concentrate on, an obscure tech skill that will come up in 1 out of every 100,000 matches with basically know effect, or something that is presenting a legit wall for you.


Go for perfection in what is relevant for you personally in your situation first first before worrying about "Arrow Ballerina Waste-of-your-motherf*ckin-time Dance".

Why are you guys even arguing about this? This is tactical discussion, we're supposed to be talking about strategies, not the ethics behind them. I'm surprised this hasn't been locked, yet.

He's suggesting that people's ethics are standing in the way of them doing well and encouraging them to change, this is definitely tactical.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

i see san winning with ike. WHERE ARE THE OLIMARS. char is mad easy to play, and 99-1s ike.

It probably has been pointed out, but: Olimar is 65-35. Not 99-1. We were saying 7-3 until the Olimar board started saying that the MU was too difficult for that to be true. >_>

Should have used MK in your example.

 

[fkacyan]

I figure I should mention this: if Orion's theory is taken as correct (

Spoiler

THIS IS ACTUALLY A PART OF MY THEORY THAT YOU STOLE AND MADE INTO A THREAD OUT OF CONTEXT YOU ****

), a lot of matchup data is very wrong because people haven't been playing gay enough for us to have evaluated the matchups properly.

Back to being complete balls at SC2!

 

[etecoon]

Marth get's ***** by Snake something fierce LoL.

I wouldn't say that marth does better than MK, but no one actually thinks snake ***** marth anymore lol. most marth and snake players think it's pretty close to even/slight advantage marth

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I wouldn't say that marth does better than MK, but no one actually thinks snake ***** marth anymore lol. most marth and snake players think it's pretty close to even/slight advantage marth

I'll break it down like this. The only way Marth would win the match up would be if snake didn't have ftilt utilt and couldn't nade. A lot of the sentiment of the match up got changed because of the sets between Haze and Ally. Also I could point out a couple of match ups that have been considered even or in a characters favor that has been further been not true. So outside of Haze vs Ally can you give me instance of top snakes losing to top Marth's ?

actually marth beats snake, I can saftley say the rest of the marth board aggrees with me on that



and peopel don't camp lasers in melee like they do brawl lol, they use lasers to rush down in melee

The marth boards are funny. I'm not sure who post in there or where you get your info from however I wouldn't take their MU ratios to heart and use that as a defense. Considering how the Marth boards tend to have the MU sway heavily in their favor. Also all the theory craft in the world doesn't negate the fact that the results speak volumes.

Lol if anyone tells me that Ganondorf sucks, I'll respond by telling them how manly he is. Ganondorf is rediculously manly that's likely the reason I started using Ganon, but perfectionism is the reason I'm sticking with him. It's unfair to condemn a character as worthless until you see him at his highest level of play, I mean look at what Ally is doing with Captain Falcon (I still think that Falcon belongs in Ganon tier, but no one's going to listen until they start learning the matchup better or Link/Zelda/Samus mains start approaching Ally's level).

I agree with you that Falcon belongs in ganon tier. but ganon does suck even played at high levels. It's like cleaning a piece of crap it's still going to be a piece of crap aftr you've cleaned it's just cleaner now. So no matter how you try to dress it up how much you try or different things you do there's only so far you can going to go with ganon. While you being a perfectionist is something I admire I however fail to see the point in putting in so much effort with so little results.

 

[Blacknight99923]

I'll break it down like this. The only way Marth would win the match up would be if snake didn't have ftilt utilt and couldn't nade. A lot of the sentiment of the match up got changed because of the sets between Haze and Ally. Also I could point out a couple of match ups that have been considered even or in a characters favor that has been further been not true. So outside of Haze vs Ally can you give me instance of top snakes losing to top Marth's ?



The marth boards are funny. I'm not sure who post in there or where you get your info from however I wouldn't take their MU ratios to heart and use that as a defense. Considering how the Marth boards tend to have the MU sway heavily in their favor. Also all the theory craft in the world doesn't negate the fact that the results speak volumes.

that match up thread you could be pulling those out of is old. I as a MARTH MAIN feel snake marth is slightly marths favor. and i checked snake boards to most of the TOP SNAKES felt it was slight adv marth, no one there felt it was snakes advantedge.

I don't know how marths really put match ups in their favor for no reason to be honest. I agree with most of the boards match ups not all but most

 

[swordgard]

that match up thread you could be pulling those out of is old. I as a MARTH MAIN feel snake marth is slightly marths favor. and i checked snake boards to most of the TOP SNAKES felt it was slight adv marth, no one there felt it was snakes advantedge.

I don't know how marths really put match ups in their favor for no reason to be honest. I agree with most of the boards match ups not all but most

Snake marth is in marths favor?

So since when do forums matchup even matter XD. Everything is so easily swayed one way or the other on the boards >.>

 

[etecoon]

I'll break it down like this. The only way Marth would win the match up would be if snake didn't have ftilt utilt and couldn't nade.

you really know nothing about either character, do you

 

[adumbrodeus]

I think that Almost believes that marth loses every MU, when it comes to Marth he's basically trolling whether he knows it or not.



Almost, let me ask you this, why does Ally have so much trouble with Mike? There's actually something important here, and whether snake should be doing this defines where the MU ratio is.

 

[etecoon]

for clarification his matchup summary of snake's strengths is what made me say that, I'm not taking sides on who actually wins that matchup either way as I believe it's pretty even. didn't even mention snake's dash attack wtf

 

[adumbrodeus]

Well, that came across as "I believe this is enough to destroy marth", I guess you could say that it means he knows very little about snake, but my first impression was that it's just an example of his incredibly low opinion of marth.

 

[global-wolf]

People like to win with their chosen character. They don't get enjoyment out of winning with others.

And no one plays solely for the money, if you just want the money from getting first place then get a job.

 

[etecoon]

And no one plays solely for the money

uh, yes some people do lol

 

[global-wolf]

uh, yes some people do lol

No, you have to at least sort of enjoy the game to even consider playing it. Video games are high commitment and very low reward, unless you consistently win every tournament, and even then they don't pay out as much as a job.

You'd be stupid to play smash just to make money.

 

[Cirno]

I don't think it's as much about honor as it is about making the game fun to play for each individual. Although for some of us those go hand in hand.

 

[AvaricePanda]

If you're top at your region you could arguably play only for the money; I remember OS saying something along the lines of, yes you could get a job and work multiple hours per day all week, or you could play a game you enjoy every weekend and make profit if you're good.

I really just don't see this being reasonable unless you're opponent's character has like a 30:70 match-up. For example, I play Diddy and have a slight disadvantage against Wario. I could pick up Marth to get an advantage in the match-up, but I've practiced with Diddy for multiple months. To get my Marth at a level where my Diddy is, even in just that match-up, it would take at least multiple weeks. Not only this, but because I've played Diddy for longer, I feel more comfortable with him in times where I'm pressured, and not only that, but it's more likely that the Wario has more match-up experience in his disadvantageous match-ups like Marth and MK rather than the ones where he wins like Diddy. And I have much more match-up experience with Diddy in the match-up regardless, playing a lot of good Warios, so why would I try to pick up Marth to get a possible sliiiight advantage a few months down the road?

This is more understandable if I'm like, Mario facing D3 — yes I should use a pocket Falco. But most match-ups aren't nearly bad enough to consider a secondary, in my opinion.

 

[GimR]

The main problem I have with this is that 70 30 match UPS are based on the current metagame which means they aren't completely true.

Second. You have to know why your character counters another character. You can't just say, I heard my character counters this character, so that must mean ill win no matter what.

For example, if a guy cp'd a Lucas player with Marth because he heard it was a **** match up but didn't know about the grab release then it makes his counter pick null and void.

 

[Variable]

TKD just won with Fox dude... Yes, he used Mk on Brinstar, but only because of that CP.

 

[Orion*]

The main problem I have with this is that 70 30 match UPS are based on the current metagame which means they aren't completely true.

Second. You have to know why your character counters another character. You can't just say, I heard my character counters this character, so that must mean ill win no matter what.

For example, if a guy cp'd a Lucas player with Marth because he heard it was a **** match up but didn't know about the grab release then it makes his counter pick null and void.

youre acting like ****** are just picking chars and throwing them out there in the tournament scene like nothing matters. people usually dont just pick a character with a matchup they heard is **** in tournament, they PRACTICE it first and slowly incorporate it into their metagame. not how many times i said LEARN characters. read thread please, because this has been discussed already and nobody like people who post nonsense like this.

Almost, let me ask you this, why does Ally have so much trouble with Mike? There's actually something important here, and whether snake should be doing this defines where the MU ratio is.

because ally sucks at camping, and running at marth is bad. PROBLEM SOLVED

Snake marth is in marths favor?

So since when do forums matchup even matter XD. Everything is so easily swayed one way or the other on the boards >.>

lOLnIGsgtOtHErESCUtHNX

You'd be stupid to play smash just to make money.

Plenty of people do that, but its been declining since the game came out, at least in my area imo

 

[Kole]

Yeah TKD just won a Socal tournament, beating Larry, Sean, Tyrant (twice), and others. Using almost all Fox.

 

[adumbrodeus]

because ally sucks at camping, and running at marth is bad. PROBLEM SOLVED

I'm asking almost this question as a MU knowledge thing to figure out if he knows what he's talking about, and since he claims to know marth and is expressing knowledge of the MU, he should know the answer.


Gonna wait till Almost responds until I say anything else on it.

 

[Variable]

Yeah TKD just won a Socal tournament, beating Larry, Sean, Tyrant (twice), and others. Using almost all Fox.

Exactly...

How many of those were 70:30 MU against fox?? If not 70:30 I can guarantee you all of them were dis-advantages.

 

[Kole]

MK vs. Fox is around 65:35 IIRC

 

[Clai]

how is ganon anything better than beyond the worst character in the game. i dont see it honestly

Nah, you're right, Ganon is and will always be the worst character in the game. That's not going to stop me from trying to reach his limits.

I agree with you that Falcon belongs in ganon tier. but ganon does suck even played at high levels. It's like cleaning a piece of crap it's still going to be a piece of crap aftr you've cleaned it's just cleaner now. So no matter how you try to dress it up how much you try or different things you do there's only so far you can going to go with ganon. While you being a perfectionist is something I admire I however fail to see the point in putting in so much effort with so little results.

That's exactly my point. I don't know how far I'm going to go with Ganon, but I have to continue trying until I reach that point. Once I reach the point where I feel I can't take my character any further, I'll figure out what options I have then. Until then, I need to know how far I can take my character.

 

[Orion*]

Yeah TKD just won a Socal tournament, beating Larry, Sean, Tyrant (twice), and others. Using almost all Fox.

how many good pikachu ice climbers or shieks did he play. im not trashing his win, those are amazing victories but im just saying going all fox shouldnt be viable if people play gayer rofl

 

[Turbo Ether]

Uh, Fox can be played pretty gay, himself.

 

[Orion*]

foxs camping is pretty mediocre and a lot work for very little reward.

 

[Kole]

Fox has no chance of winning a large tourney whatsoever.


amirite

edit: if he played a pika, shiek, or ICs he would probably go MK.

 

[etecoon]

MK vs. Fox is around 65:35 IIRC

if you have to add "IIRC" to something regarding a matchup you shouldn't bother saying it. if you don't have the insight to have your own opinion what is regurgitating what some character board says accomplishing?

 

[Kole]

if you have to add "IIRC" to something regarding a matchup you shouldn't bother saying it. if you don't have the insight to have your own opinion what is regurgitating what some character board says accomplishing?

Look at me, I'm using long words to make myself look smart!

Matchups aren't exact at all and the ratio is just an estimate. In tournament play, the little matchup ratios theorycrafters decide don't really matter at all.

 

[etecoon]

none of the words I used were particularly long or unusual

no **** matchups aren't exact, they are quite subjective, that's why I'm telling you that you should think for yourself lol

 

[Kole]

So I'm not thinking for myself? I didn't even look at either characters' boards. I said I thought it was around 65:35, which is from my own knowledge and experience.

 

[Orion*]

none of the words I used were particularly long or unusual

no **** matchups aren't exact, they are quite subjective, that's why I'm telling you that you should think for yourself lol

you and your big words

and imo, mk vs fox isnt that bad. 6:4
but we all have our opinions

 

[bajisci]

So I'm not thinking for myself? I didn't even look at either characters' boards. I said I thought it was around 65:35, which is from my own knowledge and experience.

i think its more like 55:45 mk dies at like 80 to that usmash