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Which stage do YOU consider to be the most competitive?

ChronoSayo

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Sep 13, 2010
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I'm doing a research for my Level Design class where the assignment is to have a statistic over which level (in any game) is considered most competitive and why. Then I have to write a report about it.

I know Final Destination is considered the most competitive, but if you think another level fits the criteria, please explain why it is. Also, if you think FD is the only competitive level, please provide a reason why you think it is.

Thanks in advance.
 

JOE!

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FD is not the perfect level...

It is a flat plane which greatly benifits some characters (Projectile uses like Falco, Chain Grabbers like Ice Climbers, and the odd characters like Diddy who just work there), while severley hampering other chars (mainly those who get abused by the above techniques/characters)

On the flipside, Battlefield offers incentive to take to the air as it has tiered platforms, but again this helps and hinders alot of characters (Metaknight does well here because he can essentially trap people above him with his Uair Spam and Tornado, while charracters liek Yoshi dont do as well because other characters can use the platforms to "hide" from their camping).

So in my opinion Smashville would be the best stage for you to look at, as it provides both contrasts in design in one stage. It is long and flat, which gives the aspects of FD, while having a moving platform which can emulate the effects BF has on a match.
 

stingers

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Smashville is universally considered the most neutral of all stages. Final Destination isn't even on the top 5 neutrals in the newest Brawl Backroom ruleset.
 

Supreme Dirt

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Smashville is universally considered the most neutral of all stages. Final Destination isn't even on the top 5 neutrals in the newest Brawl Backroom ruleset.
Unless you're me, BPC, or a bunch of other people who strongly feel that Pokémon Stadium 2 holds that position.

Also, why do I get the feeling OP is just someone's alt.

Hrrrmmm.
 
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Pokemon Stadium 2.

It does not favor any character heavily, and virtually none at all like it.
It requires a massive amount of adaptation on the player's part, increasing the difficulty to fight and making the player who knows more not only about spacing, zoning, baiting, and what have you but also about how to deal with various hazards and physics changes come out better for it.
It might as well be non-random.

It is the perfect starter stage, and probably the single most competitive in the game. Other stages that come to mind:
-Halberd
-Norfair
-Port Town
-Frigate

@most others here: GTFO with your neutrals bull****.
 

napZzz

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Pokemon Stadium 2.

It does not favor any character heavily, and virtually none at all like it.
It requires a massive amount of adaptation on the player's part, increasing the difficulty to fight and making the player who knows more not only about spacing, zoning, baiting, and what have you but also about how to deal with various hazards and physics changes come out better for it.
It might as well be non-random.

It is the perfect starter stage, and probably the single most competitive in the game. Other stages that come to mind:
-Halberd
-Norfair
-Port Town
-Frigate

@most others here: GTFO with your neutrals bull****.
oh man LOL another beautiful post by BPC!

its smashville, maybe BF
 

Supreme Dirt

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Ah, a PS2/HB/Norfair/PTAD/FO starter list.

If only it could be.

Also, now I know it's an alt, it hasn't posted since this thread's creation.
 
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Start list? **** that. PS2 is an amazing starter, probably the best in the game, but most of the others there are very powerful counterpicks. Frigate and Halberd, maybe, but beyond that PS2 is the best starter ever and frigate is much less counterpicky than Delfino, the BBR starter list is fairly solid
 

Eternal Yoshi

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Yoshi's Island. because you can't go under the stage.
Yoshi's Story is cool too for the same reasons.

Did you look into the G&W uair thing on the air transformation, since that is likely going to be the sole factor on whether it will be starter or CP.
 

Altres

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SmashVille

Pros:
Offers a hide from pojectile spammers
Longer

Cons:
Lucas has great advantage here(dsmash on platform)

I should'nt complain though, i second him :)
 

ChronoSayo

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Also, now I know it's an alt, it hasn't posted since this thread's creation.
I am not someone's alt, I just registered to get some statistics on what stage people chose. I haven't posted because I haven't had anything to say. Just still doing more research. I like the answers I've got so far, so keep 'em coming guys.

I think I'm going to go with Smashville, and have Battlefield and Final Destination as honorable mentions, although I like the idea of transforming stages. Though, I still appreciate more opinions, it'll give me more data to write about.
 

Zatchiel

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BF or PS1, the coverage of platforms is pretty good for opponents with good air games and/or camp.
PS1 has some good distance to traverse, though.
 

UberMario

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I think that Smashville is the most competitive, it's flat, and has a moving platform which can be used without it becoming an overcentralizing part of the camping metagame of Snake and co.
 
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I don't get the arguments around SV. Even if it's well-balanced, it excludes many of the competitive skills several other stages require; it's essentially removing the PvS element from the game entirely. That is NOT a competitive improvement!
 

UberMario

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I don't get the arguments around SV. Even if it's well-balanced, it excludes many of the competitive skills several other stages require; it's essentially removing the PvS element from the game entirely. That is NOT a competitive improvement!
Let me use your examples:
-Pokemon Stadium 2:
Mr. Game & Watch is a nightmare in the Flying mode [if he gets under you], Electric mode heavly limits characters that are slow and/or have metagames that centralize on ground play, and the Ground mode is a great camping level. It's still one of the more balanced stages and is easily more fair than PS1 however.

-Halberd: Lasers, Bombs, and Grappling Arms kind of imbalance it since the "victim" the laser and arm home in on is random.

-Norfair: More balanced than people think, but characters with poor air games tend to not cope well with the changing enviornment.

-Port Town: I love this stage, but the temporary walls and walkoffs give power to chaingrabbers during those modes, otherwise it's pretty fairly balanced and I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a high CP or low neutral in the future. I'd say the fairness is around the level of Castle Siege's and Pokemon Stadium 1's.

-Frigate Orpheon: I never saw this as really balanced, a lot of characters are hurt by the lack of a grabbable ledge on the right side of one of the platforms [in the first mode], and both modes are very camper friendly.
 

-LzR-

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None of those things about PS2 are broken or are advantage for all characters.
I kinda think stages with minor hazards, like Brinstar or PS2 are the most competitive, but that doesn't mean they are the most balanced ones. Learn the difference.
 
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Let me use your examples:
-Pokemon Stadium 2:
Mr. Game & Watch is a nightmare in the Flying mode [if he gets under you], Electric mode heavly limits characters that are slow and/or have metagames that centralize on ground play, and the Ground mode is a great camping level. It's still one of the more balanced stages and is easily more fair than PS1 however.
And? I don't see why this makes it less competitive. Individual parts favor individual characters, however it sets a prerequisite that you learn how the stage works and that you adapt to it, and know when to stall what parts of the stage out. Either way I wouldn't set "heavy counterpick elements" as something to make the game less competitive...

-Halberd: Lasers, Bombs, and Grappling Arms kind of imbalance it since the "victim" the laser and arm home in on is random.
Yeah I was kinda running out of good examples on this one. However even then, you have a situation where you need to adapt on the fly. A good player can take advantage of this by getting right next to his opponent, or at the very least neutralize the disadvantage. The lazer is no problem whatsoever unless you're completely thick.

-Norfair: More balanced than people think, but characters with poor air games tend to not cope well with the changing enviornment.
Yep, and that's a serious character weakness that the game punishes.

-Port Town: I love this stage, but the temporary walls and walkoffs give power to chaingrabbers during those modes, otherwise it's pretty fairly balanced and I wouldn't be surprised to see it become a high CP or low neutral in the future. I'd say the fairness is around the level of Castle Siege's and Pokemon Stadium 1's.
Lol, I wish you were right... The lack of edges on the main platform is just ridiculously polarizing... Chars like Falco, Fox, and especially tethers are completely ****ed. That's why it's debatably bannable... don't see it being a starter any time soon. But this isn't about which stages are starters, it's about which are the most competitive. Which SV, BF, and FD certainly aren't.

-Frigate Orpheon: I never saw this as really balanced, a lot of characters are hurt by the lack of a grabbable ledge on the right side of one of the platforms [in the first mode], and both modes are very camper friendly.
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=281330

You're on the one-ledged side for about 1/4th, if not less, of the match. Even then, it's not that bad for you; just stick to the left and your opponent will usually have to work very hard to get you off.


However, something hit me. Why are we setting a prerequisite for this that all characters are equally good on the stage? Ideally, all characters would all be equally good at each stage, but it isn't so... But for the purposes of this exercise, what stops Rainbow Cruise from being one of the top competitive stages? It forces a lot of adaptation and stage knowledge from both players, has no random elements, and only makes things easier for one player or the other if one of them has chosen a character who is flat-out terrible on it.

Revised list:
-PS2
-RC
-Frigate
-Norfair
-PTAD

Those are, in my eyes and with my reasoning, the most competitive stages in the game for the purpose of this exercise. Throw character balance and the fact that MK ***** pretty much the whole cast on RC and Norfair, and you have a slightly different story...
 

UberMario

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Lol, I wish you were right... The lack of edges on the main platform is just ridiculously polarizing... Chars like Falco, Fox, and especially tethers are completely ****ed. That's why it's debatably bannable... don't see it being a starter any time soon. But this isn't about which stages are starters, it's about which are the most competitive. Which SV, BF, and FD certainly aren't.
I love dynamic stages, but saying that Smashville, Battlefield, and Final Destination aren't competitive is nearly as bad as saying that 75m is tourney viable.

Also, the lack of ledges isn't really that bad, the locations where you get ko'd off the bottom of the screen are relatively in-frequent and can be stalled out by many of the characters [especially Fox] until they can fall onto the road to bounce upwards. If there was no road, I'd
say this was an issue.


However, something hit me. Why are we setting a prerequisite for this that all characters are equally good on the stage? Ideally, all characters would all be equally good at each stage, but it isn't so... But for the purposes of this exercise, what stops Rainbow Cruise from being one of the top competitive stages? It forces a lot of adaptation and stage knowledge from both players, has no random elements, and only makes things easier for one player or the other if one of them has chosen a character who is flat-out terrible on it.

Revised list:
-PS2
-RC
-Frigate
-Norfair
-PTAD

Those are, in my eyes and with my reasoning, the most competitive stages in the game for the purpose of this exercise. Throw character balance and the fact that MK ***** pretty much the whole cast on RC and Norfair, and you have a slightly different story...
Because RC makes characters with great air games overpowered to oblivion? Especially those that have glides or multiple jumps? Ground based characters, like Ganon, Donkey Kong, and several others, are just flippin' murdered there . . . . . . and using the "character balance" excuse actually works against you, since when you ignore "character balance", it cements the starters in terms of competitiveness, since there is no direct stage influence . . . . .
 

Kole

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BPC, you have to play the game competitively to say and argue about which stage is most competitive.

No offense.
 

Supreme Dirt

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Wait, are you using Ganondorf doing trash on a stage as a reason to ban a stage? That is irrelevant, and also shows how little you know about Ganondorf. Final Destination is a trash stage for him.

Also, stop using a logical fallacy to attack BPC.

Also, imo, the optimal starter list would not be one in which no stages effect matchups, but one in which both characters in any non-Metaknight matchup need to ban no more than two stages. Meta Knight excluded as he does well on nearly every stage in the game.
 
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I love dynamic stages, but saying that Smashville, Battlefield, and Final Destination aren't competitive is nearly as bad as saying that 75m is tourney viable.
Nonononono. Not "aren't competitive". "Are less competitive". Imagine it like a scale if you will. At the very bottom is Wario Ware, then a big jump, then the circle camping stages, and then a massive jump, and then the walkoff stages, then a small jump, and then we get stages like Pirate Ship and Corneria, with strong/overpowering tactics that make the game far easier to play for most characters in a defensive position. And then you have the static/semi-static stages like FD, BF, SV, and LC. And above that (not far at all, mind you) you have the other stages.

75m, Temple, and co (basically, every stage except for Wario Ware) are competitive, but they're simply not competitive to the level that we demand of a stage.

Also, the lack of ledges isn't really that bad, the locations where you get ko'd off the bottom of the screen are relatively in-frequent and can be stalled out by many of the characters [especially Fox] until they can fall onto the road to bounce upwards. If there was no road, I'd say this was an issue.
This is what I keep on saying, but nobody listens, and I stopped getting the feeling it was right. Seriously guys-bounce off the bottom, then recover. NOT THAT HARD.

Because RC makes characters with great air games overpowered to oblivion? Especially those that have glides or multiple jumps?
And this makes the gameplay on it less competitive how? Sure, if one player makes a big fat mistake at the CSS, their opponent gets an easy win... But they could do this anyways by picking Ganon or Zelda or some other ****ty character. Obviously if you're attached to character viability, it matters. For the purposes of competition (let's ignore metaknight for a moment here, eh?), RC is an incredibly good stage.

Ground based characters, like Ganon
Off topic: LOL, RC is, in almost every matchup, better for ganon than, say, BF or SV. It actually forces people out of their semi-unbeatable camping positions. It's not a good stage for him by any means; if his options weren't as ****ty as they are, he'd hate it... As is, Ganon needs hazards like ICs need solid, unmoving, undamaging ground below their feet.

Donkey Kong, and several others, are just flippin' murdered there . . . . . . and using the "character balance" excuse actually works against you, since when you ignore "character balance", it cements the starters in terms of competitiveness, since there is no direct stage influence . . . . .
I have no idea how this works against me. If you ignore the idea of character balance on stages, all stages are equally good as starters, but not all are equally competitive. Why would that make it this way?

In fact, character balance is the sole thing that keeps RC from being, outside of this thought experience, possibly the most competitive stage in smash.

BPC, you have to play the game competitively to say and argue about which stage is most competitive.

No offense.
Also, stop using a logical fallacy to attack BPC.
And no, no I don't. I can get that without competitive play, thank you very much. Logic works reardless of the user's personal effects. My arguments would only be effected by who I am if I based them on it. As I clearly don't, this is just a simple ad hominem, which is still a logical fallacy.
 

-LzR-

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That still doesn't make it competitive.
If there was a stage that had 3 platforms. In these platform, once per 20 seconds, spawns a healing item that heals 10%.
This would be a more competitive stage than SV. It requires you to control the position of the next spawn and outplay your opponent while still getting the healers.
That is competitive, you need more skill.
 

Life

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^That

Basically, SV, FD, and BF are probably the least competitive stages you can get without delving into straight-up anticompetitivity (temple, warioware, corneria, etc.).
This is why we can't let anyone take you seriously . .

So I made a poem about you: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=86142
And this is why we/they don't take you seriously. Back up your points or don't bother posting. See, ADHD, you might be amazing at diddy, but not so much at debating (though you've improved somewhat).

You also spelled "gentlemen" wrong in the blog post. Not relevant to above, just something you may wish to correct.
 

-LzR-

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Just because a stage doesn't have hazards doesn't make it the most competitive.
 

Raziek

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There are two schools of thought on this, varying heavily depending on what your definition of "competitive" is.

For those like ADHD, competitive is fighting your opponent mano a mano with little interference, which lends itself to stages like FD (LOLOOL), Smashville, and BF. (Fairly reasonable)

For those like BPC and myself, we believe that adaptation to stage hazards/layouts is just as competitive as any other feature of the game, and removing them creates a less competitive environment where players are not required to deal with such things.

I happen to agree with the latter school of thought, and I run a stagelist that reflects that.

Further, I also agree with Pokemon Stadium 2 for most competitive stage, because it's probably the best balance of the two schools of thought that you can get.

The layout is simple and allows for PvP, but you are forced to deal with PvS elements that merely alter the physics of the game, rather than hazards that might kill you.
 

ADHD

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Just because a stage doesn't have hazards doesn't make it the most competitive.
Yes, so it's almost not competitive at all. I'm sure.

There are two schools of thought on this, varying heavily depending on what your definition of "competitive" is.

For those like ADHD, competitive is fighting your opponent mano a mano with little interference, which lends itself to stages like FD (LOLOOL), Smashville, and BF. (Fairly reasonable)

For those like BPC and myself, we believe that adaptation to stage hazards/layouts is just as competitive as any other feature of the game, and removing them creates a less competitive environment where players are not required to deal with such things.

I happen to agree with the latter school of thought, and I run a stagelist that reflects that.

Further, I also agree with Pokemon Stadium 2 for most competitive stage, because it's probably the best balance of the two schools of thought that you can get.

The layout is simple and allows for PvP, but you are forced to deal with PvS elements that merely alter the physics of the game, rather than hazards that might kill you.
Yes, so SV, FD, and BF therefor have practically as much competitive value as warioware and hyrule temple, as BPC says.
 
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