WHOBO Results, and the Conflict at hand.

[Cirno]

I think dk gives marth a hard time....

also the hater on falcon just wait I'll show you..

As much as I don't like metaknight staling the metagame dojo vs. m2k was really ****ing fun to watch..

Another argue.

Marths say 50/50

DKs say 60/40


Gimme some Ripple v Pierce

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

A few months ago I didn't think MK should be banned. Now I'm not so sure.

The problem I have is that the game is centralized now around trying to find a way to beat Meta Knight. It's metagame tunnel vision and it isn't fun or reasonable.

The problems I had with a ban then still exist: not playing Meta Knight reduces the chance we have of finding a way to beat him down. Of course the chances of that are much smaller now than they have ever been. Still, however: if we'd banned ZSS' standing infinite on Wario, would they have ever found a way to escape it? Maybe not.

The other problem is that they'd all just switch to Snake. Now, Snake has CPs and isn't quite the god of a character that MK is, but that still leads to a huge population of MK players changing to a huge population of Snake players. So part of the problem (too many god ****ed MKs) is solved, but the other problem (the metagame revolving around beating just one character) is softened, but not dissolved.

I think I'm probably for a ban, though. If nothing else, the snake guys would have to pick a secondary. Wouldn't their secondary all be the same character, though?

Gotta wonder.

 

[Eddie G]

My opinion is that, the smash community is sooo centered in MK that they are not able to see beyond him. Theres far more things in this game yet to be discovered but we are so frustrated that MK is dominating the tournament scene nowadays that we dont care about all the other important things.

Lots of people are talking about "ways to beat mk", "this attack goes through MKs *insert attack here*", and blah blah blah. But almost nobody is talking about : " ways to make a more solid game plan for *insert char here*, or any other thing concerning your own character. This game revolves around skills and knowledge not around MK.

Also, about thing of banning MK... its like that example i read a couple of months ago about the gayness level. Lets say MK has a gayness level of 3 and we decide to ban him. then level 2.9999999999 will become our "new MK" and we will repeat the same process of banning and so on in a vicious circle.

So lets just focus in our own characters instead of focusing how MK could be beaten by X attack from Y character.

Did you even read my post? I'm so sick of being spoon-fed this "work on your own character" nonsense. What do you think the communities have been doing? Honestly, how long will all of these reasons stand before people start to see the over-centralization of a character that has been taking place? Really now?

 

[Blad01]

@Praxis : I agree with your post, the only problem being Marth. He has no real counters.
Also, Falco's counters are Kirby, G&W, Pikachu and maybe ICs. Lucario ? Not really, it's more an even match-up.

@Hylian : I'm not sure what you base your analysis of G&W / Falco on... It seems that you base it on your matches with Sethlon. I personnally think that if Sethlon beats you with Falco, he's just better than you :/
Seriously, how can a Falco grab a G&W ? If you get grabbed by a Falco as G&W, you're just playing bad, or being outsmarted.

As for the DK-Marth match-up, it's very probably 50-50... Fair against Bair, Tilts against tilts, horizontal recovery vs vertical recovery.... They very similar, Marth is just faster, and DK heavier.

I would be all for the ban of MK is Marth's only bad match-up wasn't MK... Let's find a counter to Marth and ban MK

Also I'm curious : People don't mention Falco - MK like a 50 - 50 match-up... Is it because of planking ? :/ I mean, without planking, Falco doesn't have any particular problems vs MK.

 

[Nic64]

The other problem is that they'd all just switch to Snake.

maybe at first until the game develops more, but I don't think snake necessarily becomes the best character in MK's absence actually. I wouldn't be surprised if he wasn't top 3 even, but his mere 45:55 disadvantage to MK makes him such a clear number 2 in this metagame lol

and snake doesn't need a secondary, neither do probably like 5 or so other characters or maybe more, slightly disadvantaged matchups are perfectly winnable and you're possibly still better off using your main than a character you're not as good at. I think a snake might want to use falco for an easy DDD counter because that is really hard for him though

no real opinion regarding a ban anymore, I just think the slippery slope argument is silly

EDIT

@Praxis : I agree with your post, the only problem being Marth. He has no real counters.

DDD and Snake function pretty well as Marth counters(DDD mostly but even that's so much better than MK lol). See the DSF vs RoyR from WHOBO.

@Hylian : I'm not sure what you base your analysis of G&W / Falco on... It seems that you base it on your matches with Sethlon. I personnally think that if Sethlon beats you with Falco, he's just better than you :/
Seriously, how can a Falco grab a G&W ? If you get grabbed by a Falco as G&W, you're just playing bad, or being outsmarted.

I don't think it's even but it's really not that bad for falco, GAW isn't a real falco counter it's just a slight advantage. Falco's biggest problems would be kirby and IC's

Also I'm curious : People don't mention Falco - MK like a 50 - 50 match-up... Is it because of planking ? :/ I mean, without planking, Falco doesn't have any particular problems vs MK.

MK can camp in the air endlessly until he's above 40% to avoid the chain grab most of the time, after that he has a lot of advantages and falco has trouble killing without getting a huge head start from his chain grab, falco's recovery can also get gayed pretty hard

 

[Eddie G]

I would be all for the ban of MK is Marth's only bad match-up wasn't MK... Let's find a counter to Marth and ban MK

Also I'm curious : People don't mention Falco - MK like a 50 - 50 match-up... Is it because of planking ? :/ I mean, without planking, Falco doesn't have any particular problems vs MK.

But Marth doesn't single-handedly **** the counterpicking system like MK does, and he has some troubles on certain stages unlike the latter. Basically...he still has weaknesses that can be exploited.

Also, yes, that is exactly what planking does to an otherwise 50-50 matchup against MK; It is suddenly shifted in his favor. I've already mentioned this earlier in the thread.

Actually...one thing has changed, and continues to. What is it? Time.

Any previous reasoning that was backed by "this game hasn't been out long enough" or "communities need to work harder on the MK matchup" is slowly dwindling away as time carries on. It is as you pointed out Nintendevil: we have not banned him which allowed for further analysis on the matchup, communities have been working hard on the matchup, and there are still no suitable options to deal with the matchup that go beyond bringing it to a 50-50 matchup; Also, as Praxis had elaborated on...planking causes some more issues for those matchups that are otherwise 50-50 between MK and [insert character here].

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Does anyone else find it crazy that these guys bank MK occasionally "for fun?" So tournaments need to ban MK for them to be fun? Or banning them somehow increases the game's fun factor?

Isn't fun what this whole thing is about?

 

[Sukai]

Isn't fun what this whole thing is about?

You tell me.
Would you like to see some diversity in the tournament scene?
Meta Knight may be "fun to play", but he kills diversity.

People are just intimidated by him.

 

[Crizthakidd]

duh the top players will pick mk. its easier winning with him and they like playing him. those guys are in it to win money and mk with their skills will do that. a temp ban to up the metagame of other chars should be in affect tho. lol someone tell m2k to pickup marth, snake , or a mid tier ^_^

 

[Nic64]

Does anyone else find it crazy that these guys bank MK occasionally "for fun?" So tournaments need to ban MK for them to be fun? Or banning them somehow increases the game's fun factor?

Isn't fun what this whole thing is about?

if you'd watch the HOBO livestreams(or check the results in this threads original post!) you'd understand why they do it, it's like there are more meta knight's than every other character combined for some stretches of time lol. this is where I'm conflicted regarding him, I don't think he's too good/unbeatable broken or whatever, but he doesn't have a single matchup even slightly against him while everyone else has at least like 2-4, so why bother using anyone else? there will still always be people who stick to their other characters but it is a problem that more and more people give up and just switch to meta knight, and even if you don't think he should be banned mainstream for fairness reasons, you should certainly be able to understand the value of having a fun tournament every now and then where everyone doesn't play the same character

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

if you'd watch the HOBO livestreams(or check the results in this threads original post!) you'd understand why they do it, it's like there are more meta knight's than every other character combined for some stretches of time lol. this is where I'm conflicted regarding him, I don't think he's too good/unbeatable broken or whatever, but he doesn't have a single matchup even slightly against him while everyone else has at least like 2-4, so why bother using anyone else? there will still always be people who stick to their other characters but it is a problem that more and more people give up and just switch to meta knight, and even if you don't think he should be banned mainstream for fairness reasons, you should certainly be able to understand the value of having a fun tournament every now and then where everyone doesn't play the same character

I think I was misunderstood. I was saying that if banning Meta Knight makes the game more varied (and thus fun) then I am for it.

 

[Nic64]

yeah I had to read that a few times before I thought I knew what you were saying and apparently I was way off -_-

 

[AvaricePanda]

I agree. I don't think he's broken as a character, although not having a bad match-up is kind of a huge thing. Question is, is this and the fact that he doesn't have any notably bad stages banworthy?

To anyone arguing for character diversity, wanting character diversity is not a reason to ban a character. Many other fighting games only have 2-3 characters placing well at the top levels of play, and it's common. Sure, a more diverse tournament could be fun if you're playing a person who gets owned by MK and doesn't want to worry about the match-up constantly (re: one time bans), but a permanent ban for this reason isn't warranted.

 

[takeurlife2]

I think dk gives marth a hard time....

also the hater on falcon just wait I'll show you..

As much as I don't like metaknight staling the metagame dojo vs. m2k was really ****ing fun to watch..

D3 and snake can gay marth pretty hard, and even matchups that are supposed to be in his advantage can be turned around by a simple CP stage.

I think it's funny when people try to compare marth with a god tier.

 

[Falconv1.0]

My opinion has always been if the players are winning due to skill, and those players will still win without MK, then I dont give a **** about diversity. Like I've said before, for most good characters MK isn't really the big ultimate **** match up, but since he's so safe people like to have a big piss fest.

Also, we should take out the names of those players mains. Because that is what would be around the same result every ****ing time. Face it those players were just plain better, they won with their skill, they didn't just pick MK and go on EZ street with some poor people who were using characters with a 6/4 match up vs him.

I dont think a single person pro MK ban plays any other competitive fighter outside of Brawl, because MK esque characters exist every where.

 

[sandwhale]

just want to say that falco is way to overrated. saying that with out MK falco wil dominated the competitive scene is just crazy, it's because of falco doing OKAY against him that he's currently thought so good, without MK he should be 6-7th.

 

[Flayl]

Bunch of scrubs trying to ban Sagat.

 

[bob-e]

Wait. So now Wario is supposed to magically solve the Meta Knight problem? Didn't we already try this with Snake, Falco, and Diddy, all of whom failed?

 

[Hylian]

@Praxis : I agree with your post, the only problem being Marth. He has no real counters.
Also, Falco's counters are Kirby, G&W, Pikachu and maybe ICs. Lucario ? Not really, it's more an even match-up.

@Hylian : I'm not sure what you base your analysis of G&W / Falco on... It seems that you base it on your matches with Sethlon. I personnally think that if Sethlon beats you with Falco, he's just better than you :/
Seriously, how can a Falco grab a G&W ? If you get grabbed by a Falco as G&W, you're just playing bad, or being outsmarted.

As for the DK-Marth match-up, it's very probably 50-50... Fair against Bair, Tilts against tilts, horizontal recovery vs vertical recovery.... They very similar, Marth is just faster, and DK heavier.

I would be all for the ban of MK is Marth's only bad match-up wasn't MK... Let's find a counter to Marth and ban MK

Also I'm curious : People don't mention Falco - MK like a 50 - 50 match-up... Is it because of planking ? :/ I mean, without planking, Falco doesn't have any particular problems vs MK.

Why do you make baseless assumptions just to try and discredit what I'm saying?

Last time I played sethlons falco in tournament before he dropped him I won 2-0. I've beaten him several times.

Let's set a double standard.

What matches are you basing your GW vs Falco experience on? Because I've played a lot of really good falco players, and I travel a ton. I would say my credientials are much more reasonable to justify my claims with. Keep in mind I also mained GW/Falco for awhile.

This doesn't even relate to the thread though, so I'm not going to bother :/.


MK ban people:

Why are you focusing so much on match-ups? Can any of you tell me what characters countered fox in melee? None? Oh right. How about marth? Shiek you say? Oh, look at the plethora of sheiks beating marths throughout Melee's lifespan...(sarcasm if you couldn't tell, considering Marth won by far the majority of National tournaments).

Roy_R beat DSF's MK in tournament, and DSF switched to DDD to progress in the brackets. DSF also didn't use MK vs LeeMartin, who is insanely good against MK with Lucario.

At top level, match-ups don't matter nearly as much as people give them credit for.

 

[Falconv1.0]

MK ban people:

Why are you focusing so much on match-ups? Can any of you tell me what characters countered fox in melee? None? Oh right. How about marth? Shiek you say? Oh, look at the plethora of sheiks beating marths throughout Melee's lifespan...(sarcasm if you couldn't tell, considering Marth won by far the majority of National tournaments).

Roy_R beat DSF's MK in tournament, and DSF switched to DDD to progress in the brackets. DSF also didn't use MK vs LeeMartin, who is insanely good against MK with Lucario.

At top level, match-ups don't matter nearly as much as people give them credit for.

****ing thank you Hylian. Of course, if scrubs ever actually respected top level play this thread wouldn't even exist.

 

[Binx]

****ing thank you Hylian. Of course, if scrubs ever actually respected top level play this thread wouldn't even exist.

They don't care about top level play, they want to win, but they want to win using Captain Falcon and Olimar, which they can't do even if metaknight is banned, so they try to get rid of metaknight because they can't be patient and wait for openings. I am not directing this towards the OP or any specific posters, its a kind of group mentality.

I see it at my college as well, I don't really play brawl on a tournament level, because in all honesty I think Melee is a much better game in general, and more-so as a competitive game (even though I have a good time brawling). But if I pick metaknight and drop everyone down there with him, I'm super cheap because I'm better with him than they are, the other metaknight mains dont get any crap because they lose with him.

People just want to play this game on the same level as their friends and feel equal, these people shouldn't be trying to change competitive rules, its the same as people who wanted to ban wavedashing and l canceling so they wouldn't have to learn to be good in melee.

The problem is that if you let enough stupid people get together they have a tendency to change things, and the people at the top are so outnumbered its just a tough argument cause they really don't understand why Metaknight isn't a huge deal.

* and for the record I feel pretty neutral cause no one in the game room is going to force me not to choose MK even if smashboards bans him, and since I don't go to big brawl tournaments I could care less.

 

[Jman115]

I would like to see the top MK players and the top Non MK players play in a tourney and see if the mk's dominate.

I would also like to see some of the MK players continue to dominate tournaments with characters like Toon Link, or Ness. I am not saying it is possible, I would just like to see it for curiosities sake. Also I think it would make watching these tourney videos more interesting. I am so sick of watching MK fights, they are boring as hell. 9 times out of 10 he wins and obviously when you are watching the same character fight over and over it gets dull.

Dazwa uses ZSS and dominates a lot of tournies around the New England area, I'd like to see more of that. Get the big minds to work on developing the lesser used characters.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

People just want to play this game on the same level as their friends and feel equal, these people shouldn't be trying to change competitive rules, its the same as people who wanted to ban wavedashing and l canceling so they wouldn't have to learn to be good in melee.

Obviously being good means switching to and playing Meta Knight!

 

[Jman115]

Also I have to 100% agree with Hylian, top level players, matchups are a much smaller piece of the pie. I have seen tons of videos of the top players doing:

Samus vs MK
Wario vs MK
Diddy vs MK
Lucario vs MK

and they were dead even fights that came down to the last stock, last hit. I only wish to see these players use a different character for curiosity and entertainments sake.

Just like with melee it gets old seeing the same matchups over and over.

 

[MetalMusicMan]

MK ban people:

Why are you focusing so much on match-ups? Can any of you tell me what characters countered fox in melee? None? Oh right. How about marth? Shiek you say? Oh, look at the plethora of sheiks beating marths throughout Melee's lifespan...(sarcasm if you couldn't tell, considering Marth won by far the majority of National tournaments).

Roy_R beat DSF's MK in tournament, and DSF switched to DDD to progress in the brackets. DSF also didn't use MK vs LeeMartin, who is insanely good against MK with Lucario.

At top level, match-ups don't matter nearly as much as people give them credit for.

TRUTH. I <3 you Hylian. Please don't stop fighting the good fight.

 

[BentoBox]

Good players will always be the exception, it seems. They couldn't possibly have grown as players because of the very little restrictions imposed by their characters' abilities. Nope. They just happened to pick the best character in the game at one point and their past records from that point on do not matter. If they're winning, they were just always good, a diamond in a rough. I should main MK and see how I'd do in tourneys now. Maybe I can be the exception too.

 

[TwentyTwo]

In all honesty, top players are taken as an exception because of what they do and who they beat with a character. DDD, who is supposed to apparently be a counter to Snake, I'm pretty sure Ally has a winning record on Lain, a top D3, and has also beaten Atomsk, granted it was a bit of time ago at Catalacysm 4. Next is Pikachu, nobody disagrees that Anther is THE Pikachu, and he has a losing record against Ally even after the new buffered CGs were found. These are just a few examples, top players seem to make disadvantaged matchups much more possible, and even in that certain character's favor. Looking at it another way is that Ally only consistently loses to one MK in tournament, and that MK is M2K.

Another example is Lucario, there's Lee and Azen, granted i'm somewhat ignorant of Lee's actual placings, but I'm taking Hylian's word that he has done very well against MKs. Azen, has placed high at many tournaments as Lucario/Peach/whoever he feels like playing that day lol. Azen, is just a smart guy, and you might say he just outsmarted the other people, but doesn't that mean it were possible for anyone to do that? Whenever you win don't you always outsmart your opponent?

 

[ssbbFICTION]

Okay you peeps need to chillz. Let me lay it out for you (I have a bunch of points swirling around in my head but i keep forgetting them so ill just say one for now and shoot some others out laterz xD)

T/F
Devoloping the metagame of high tier characters will enable those characters to beat MK:
True

-I can't speak for the other regions, but around here I've been watching HugS ROB take down some high level metaknights...my Wario takin down high level metaknights (a little higher level than Hugs , but he should catch up in like a month that jerk >_<), DEHF's falco beating those same metaknights....leepuffs gw beating every metaknight from here to tiajuana....

and the list goes on. Then you add what hylian was saying with lee martin...and then RoyR's marth taking a game off of DSF by beating his metaknight....(oop almost forgot Co18 placing so high with just ddd)...[insert shoutout to canadian snake player here] and you can see that almost every high tier character/even some mid tiers (like anthers pikkkka), if developed enough, can take down metaknights of even the highest level.




Metaknight breaks the counterpicking (stages) system
Partially true

-Now before you attack my answer, allow me to explain what I mean. It is true that metaknight has no universal bad stages....then again, most of the high tiers have no bad stages. But you come to me and you go but fikshun, fikshun! wario loses on FD! its his worst stage!....I'm sorry to break it to you, but that is not completely true. While wario loses to all of the tall characters on FD, it is also one of his best stages against shorter chracters like metaknight and game and watch. The key to what I'm saying that

BAD STAGES DEPEND ON MATCHUPS

The mistake people tend to make is along this thought patttern: "well, if my falcon has no cp's against metaknight, then i guess hes broken!"...this statement is completely true, and yet completely ignorant. Metaknight has some iffy stages vs some characters, even though no stages completely **** him. but then again...what stages completely **** wario, or what stages completely **** kirby? Wario does well against metaknight on FD, snake does well on stages with low ceilings (probably like halberd or something).

Metaknight does have some stages however, that are ridiculous. That is why I believe that certain stages like rainbow cruise and japes have no need in competetive play, because all they do in break the counterpicking system as an auto win/auto time out for characters like metaknight...



My little disorganized rant is over, but please try to get as much from it as you can haha. I'll continue it later.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

The point is that at this point in time and for the forseeable future, Meta Knight remains the only character that isn't complemented well by learning a secondary.

This has a few implications:

1. The guys playing Meta Knight never, ever have to practice more than one character. They never have to keep up with more than one character. As a result, they're getting better at a faster rate. I

2. Because they are mostly only practicing one character, their meta game is advancing faster. This is compounded by the fact that there are more players. More players, playing only MK. Its a self-supporting machine running on momentum it created and its only going to get worse.

3. It has been shown many times that instrumentalists who can focus on a single instrument are more likely to be the first chair guy in the London Symphony Orchestra than the guy who plays all of the woodwinds. As a result, there aren't many amazing classical saxophonists out there. That's because in order to get anywhere as a classical sax player, you need a clarinet secondary. So why not just play clarinet?

The answer is because if everyone played the clarinet and no one played the classical sax, a lot of amazing literature and music would be lost to the ages.

The point of this metagame is to play competitive Smash. We try to make it as even as possible through a complex system of rules and regulations that we impose, not the game. We play 3 stock, 8 minutes, no items, a few banned stages. These rules are set in place by us, not by the game.

The best players have their own rules they play by. They play only the best characters, and only the best players are out there winning national tourneys and taking home money.

If they really want to win, and if they really want to be as competitive as possible — and by that, I mean they want each match to be as even or advantageous as possible — they are playing Meta Knight. There's just no way around this. We're now reaching the point where the good players are getting frustrated with MK and are either quitting or switching. And whether or not you want to believe it, the other major reason we're all here is because we find the game fun, which is something that we can't really say is still true when we're all playing the same character because no one else stands a chance at the top level.

 

[BentoBox]

No way, RC is amazing! Wario does wonders there ;_;

 

[ssbbFICTION]

No way, RC is amazing! Wario does wonders there ;_;

Its also autowin for metaknight and forces you to run out the timer every single time. Lets not get off on this now though...keep your posts on topic.

 

[Furbs]

Roy_R beat DSF's MK in tournament, and DSF switched to DDD to progress in the brackets. DSF also didn't use MK vs LeeMartin, who is insanely good against MK with Lucario.

At top level, match-ups don't matter nearly as much as people give them credit for.

whose marth was 2 stocked TWICE by tyrants meta an actual metaknight main,

DSF uses a lot of characters and was kinda skeptical about using meta that tournament as he wasn't sure how he would do with it. thats why he used snake against M2K

 

[ssbbFICTION]

whose marth was 2 stocked TWICE by tyrants meta an actual metaknight main,

DSF uses a lot of characters and was kinda skeptical about using meta that tournament as he wasn't sure how he would do with it. thats why he used snake against M2K

You mean wario?

 

[da K.I.D.]

Wait. So now Wario is supposed to magically solve the Meta Knight problem? Didn't we already try this with Snake, Falco, and Diddy, all of whom failed?

you forgot Wario, Ice Climbers, Olimar, Bowser and Donkey Kong

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

He also forgot ZSS, Yoshi, and Lucario. But who's counting?

 

[BentoBox]

All of which were rumored to go even with the caped beast. Going even, at best, doesn't fix the problem at hand in any way.

 

[ssbbFICTION]

All of which were rumored to go even with the caped beast. Going even, at best, doesn't fix the problem at hand in any way.

Yes it does lol

 

[BentoBox]

None of said characters counter MK, nor do they have a slight advantage over him, which is the whole point of counterpicking. When CPing Wario against MK, you're not really CounterPiking him, you're putting yourself on common grounds and work from there. MK still breaks the CPing system.

Hey yo, ill CP ROB on your Marth see how you like that! Yayuzzz

 

[Nintendevil]

i can tell you right now. samus can do all kinda of **** to rob and snake.


and nothing to meta

This.

Plus theres a lot of Ganons that could make it pretty high without metaknight.

Hey yo, ill CP ROB on your Marth see how you like that! Yayuzzz

lol it's 50-50

 

[BentoBox]

lol it's 50-50

That's my point. ;]