MysticKenji
Smash Master
It's pretty hard to ban a stage from a game where it doesn't exist
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Why is Big Blue banned?
- Thread starter 1048576
- Start date
Linkshot
Smash Hero
It wasn't Brinstar in 64.
It was Planet Zebes. And the acid killed very early. The stage was big, too.
It was Planet Zebes. And the acid killed very early. The stage was big, too.
IIRC the only universal ban was Mushroom Kingdom, for being degenerate in strategy where all you had to do was camp the sides and be successful in a blind throwing contest. Other than that, Saffron City was auto-banned if someone selected Ness. In most tourney sets, though, I can see most people banning Zebes. It was hard to warrant a ban on any of the stages, because for all of them, the hazards were retardedly powerful, and the stage specific strategies were stupidly broken.
Gaudeo
Smash Cadet
I just spent some time playing on Big Blue, and I can certainly say that while I hate it, there is no reason it should be banned in an environment that also allows Rainbow Cruise. I played about half of the time as Ganondorf, with whom I can barely fight at all on Rainbow Cruise, and here he had a fighting chance. The other half I played as the Random Button, just to see if I could find anything game breaking.
It is certainly a difficult stage to play on, but only because of the road. The platforms do not move quickly enough to KO any intelligent player. Even when playing as Ganondorf and letting myself approach the blast zone on the left I could return to the cars with some good timing on the jumps. The focus is certainly different, more focused on fighting directly above the cars or in very close combat on a single car, but no more than on Rainbow Cruise or even Norfair. Additionally, staying on the platforms requires no more thought than on either of those two stages.
As for the road itself, it is almost exactly the same hazard as on Jungle Japes, as was mentioned previously. We allow Japes because the hazard amounts to little less than a close blast zone. It is the same on Big Blue, touching the road means death in many cases, but no more often than touching the water on Japes does (less if you add the Klap Trap to the mix). Players who are asserting that the road is sufficient cause for banning have little ground in this regard. Furthermore, since falling on to the road is roughly the same as being knocked below a stage, it can be played around accordingly.
The lack of ledges is a complete non-issue on this stage, as it does not interfere with recovery. That missing ledges can severely gimp certain players, like Olimar on the right side of Orpheon, is true. However the platforms are so low in Big Blue that there is no need to catch the ledge. Additionally, while there are no edge games, there is a decidedly heated contest between players over returning to a ledge. All in all, the core gameplay and flow are left intact despite the lack of ledges.
The possibility of a glitch existing that causes players to randomly fall through cars and die would be a cause for banning in my eyes. Clearly that could not be tolerated in competitive play. However, at this point the information presented has been insufficient to prove that it occurs with any frequency. We should research the glitch and identify the severity of the problem, but a it stands there is no evidence that it constitutes a ban.
There are no reasonable criteria present to justify the banning of Big Blue. True, it alters the way a match plays out and causes problems for a specific subset of characters, but so do all of the counterpick stages, and since that is their purpose there should be no problem with that.
It is certainly a difficult stage to play on, but only because of the road. The platforms do not move quickly enough to KO any intelligent player. Even when playing as Ganondorf and letting myself approach the blast zone on the left I could return to the cars with some good timing on the jumps. The focus is certainly different, more focused on fighting directly above the cars or in very close combat on a single car, but no more than on Rainbow Cruise or even Norfair. Additionally, staying on the platforms requires no more thought than on either of those two stages.
As for the road itself, it is almost exactly the same hazard as on Jungle Japes, as was mentioned previously. We allow Japes because the hazard amounts to little less than a close blast zone. It is the same on Big Blue, touching the road means death in many cases, but no more often than touching the water on Japes does (less if you add the Klap Trap to the mix). Players who are asserting that the road is sufficient cause for banning have little ground in this regard. Furthermore, since falling on to the road is roughly the same as being knocked below a stage, it can be played around accordingly.
The lack of ledges is a complete non-issue on this stage, as it does not interfere with recovery. That missing ledges can severely gimp certain players, like Olimar on the right side of Orpheon, is true. However the platforms are so low in Big Blue that there is no need to catch the ledge. Additionally, while there are no edge games, there is a decidedly heated contest between players over returning to a ledge. All in all, the core gameplay and flow are left intact despite the lack of ledges.
The possibility of a glitch existing that causes players to randomly fall through cars and die would be a cause for banning in my eyes. Clearly that could not be tolerated in competitive play. However, at this point the information presented has been insufficient to prove that it occurs with any frequency. We should research the glitch and identify the severity of the problem, but a it stands there is no evidence that it constitutes a ban.
There are no reasonable criteria present to justify the banning of Big Blue. True, it alters the way a match plays out and causes problems for a specific subset of characters, but so do all of the counterpick stages, and since that is their purpose there should be no problem with that.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Remember that if you don't triple jump onto the road, you can immediately jump back up.
Man of Popsicle
Smash Lord
He means zebes.
abhishekh
Smash Journeyman
I like this stage. Because its fun.
So you can go all tourneyfeg on me and say how its no fun when you lose because your playing a character with bad recovery..
But to be honest, it doesn't matter.
I still think that stage bans should be class specific. I.E. Ganon would hate for big blue to be banned, but mk wouldn't...So why not let the MKs and other chars with decent recovery and speed play on this stage?
I know, it's making it too complicated, but a lot of the stages you guys ban, I happen to like..
Its sad how you guys ban all the fun ones :/
So you can go all tourneyfeg on me and say how its no fun when you lose because your playing a character with bad recovery..
But to be honest, it doesn't matter.
I still think that stage bans should be class specific. I.E. Ganon would hate for big blue to be banned, but mk wouldn't...So why not let the MKs and other chars with decent recovery and speed play on this stage?
I know, it's making it too complicated, but a lot of the stages you guys ban, I happen to like..
Its sad how you guys ban all the fun ones :/
Anonymous24
Smash Apprentice
In my opinion its a ticket to disaster, big blue that is. Its easy to get simple and easy kills.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
The fun ones are usually chaotic and decide the outcome of the match themselves with little influence from the actual players.
And if you only double jump onto the road (AKA don't use your recovery), you won't land in lag and you can jump immediately.
And if you only double jump onto the road (AKA don't use your recovery), you won't land in lag and you can jump immediately.
Scott!
Smash Lord
Not saying whether or not I agree with the topic itself, but your argument that stage bans should be "class-specific" because some characters do better on some stages is the exact opposite of the idea of banning stages. Stages are banned because they give certain types of characters advantages, among other reasons. Walk-offs are too good when you have a chaingrab.
Also, watch the language. Censor-dodging doesn't make you cool, and being disrespectful towards tourneygoers on a competitive smash site isn't going to endear you to many, or get your points much respect.
As for the topic itself, I'm not really sure how I feel. I mean, I hate this stage so so much. It's among the first I turned off once I unlocked the random stage select, and I would be happy to never play there again ever. But I can also see the argument for unbanning it. I'd put my vote against having it in, but that's just personal preference talking rather than any valid set of criteria. If it became a counterpick, I'd be surprised but not completely shocked.
Myre
Smash Rookie
I think that stage bans are taken far too liberally. I think the only stages that should be banned are ones with walk-offs, ones with walls (these two for obvious CG reasons), and ones with random effects similar to items (which pretty much just means New Pork City, since the dragon thing can spawn right on you). Otherwise, the stages are in the game, so they should be played. If everyone seems to have this "If the tactic is in the game, it's beatable" mentality, why doesn't it apply to the stages? You simply have to adapt your strategy to the stage.
And why is Spear Pillar banned, especially if Halberd is starter/counter?
And why is Spear Pillar banned, especially if Halberd is starter/counter?
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Few of you seem familiar with circle camping.
You pick Fox, shoot a laser, and run away.
Fox is fast enough to continuously run away without taking damage, making a match drag on for 7 minutes until Fox wins by percent lead. Spear Pillar, New Pork City, Temple, and Summit all support this strategy, so they're banned.
You pick Fox, shoot a laser, and run away.
Fox is fast enough to continuously run away without taking damage, making a match drag on for 7 minutes until Fox wins by percent lead. Spear Pillar, New Pork City, Temple, and Summit all support this strategy, so they're banned.
Spear Pillar has a loop. This enables cheezy instant win running forever strategies. For that reason, Spear Pillar, New Pork City, Summit, 75m (kinda), Mario Bros, Hanenbow, and Temple are all pretty much insta-ban. Also, while the loop shuts down Spear Pillar easily, it's pretty safe to say the hazards on the stage are far more dire than the ones on Halberd. I'm not sure it's reasonable to have to be able to play with reversed controls; I know the only thing I'm able to do during that section is very carefully make my way to a central location on the stage and spam down smash, praying I get left alone until it switches back.
Also, the Ultimate Chimera on New Pork City is super easy to avoid. The stage has plenty of reasons it needs to be banned (the massive loop that the stage is being a big one), but the Ultimate Chimera really isn't one of them. The stage that really applies to that point is WarioWare; it gives random invincibility.
Other than those two points though, I agree with what you're saying. There are two main philosophies around when it comes to stages. One, which you seem to be pretty close to, is that only stages that are in some way broken should be banned, a philosophy that wants to allow more stages than not usually (I share this philosophy). The other pretty much doesn't think stages should be a factor in the game and wants to select the "least intrusive" set of stages, believing the only purpose of playing on more than one stage all the time is to fix the inherent imbalance of a single stage. These are the people who support playing on the smaller stage lists. Some of them even have a general outlook that it's okay to ban things to make the game "better" (such as banning King Dedede's infinite or banning ledgestalling; I've even seen a suggestion to ban just running away too much like Wario mains sometimes do) so it's hard to come together with them on stuff. Of course, this somewhat simplifies the politics since some stages like Big Blue and Rumble Falls get the "okay, everyone just plain hates this stage so why not ban it?" treatment and are pretty much guaranteed never to be legal anywhere regardless of anything else.
In terms of political culture right now, the side that wants to ban more is "winning". The best thing you can do if you support the other side is to just let your local TOs know that you support playing on more stages; I think a majority of TOs make their rules largely in response to what they feel the desires of their players are. Big Blue is probably hopeless to save, but maybe you contribute to the legality of some other stages.
Anyway, this is getting a bit too close to general legality chat which has its own topic. I'll leave the thread open since that topic really doesn't need a rush of Big Blue discussion, but this thread should stick to mostly discussing Big Blue.
Also, the Ultimate Chimera on New Pork City is super easy to avoid. The stage has plenty of reasons it needs to be banned (the massive loop that the stage is being a big one), but the Ultimate Chimera really isn't one of them. The stage that really applies to that point is WarioWare; it gives random invincibility.
Other than those two points though, I agree with what you're saying. There are two main philosophies around when it comes to stages. One, which you seem to be pretty close to, is that only stages that are in some way broken should be banned, a philosophy that wants to allow more stages than not usually (I share this philosophy). The other pretty much doesn't think stages should be a factor in the game and wants to select the "least intrusive" set of stages, believing the only purpose of playing on more than one stage all the time is to fix the inherent imbalance of a single stage. These are the people who support playing on the smaller stage lists. Some of them even have a general outlook that it's okay to ban things to make the game "better" (such as banning King Dedede's infinite or banning ledgestalling; I've even seen a suggestion to ban just running away too much like Wario mains sometimes do) so it's hard to come together with them on stuff. Of course, this somewhat simplifies the politics since some stages like Big Blue and Rumble Falls get the "okay, everyone just plain hates this stage so why not ban it?" treatment and are pretty much guaranteed never to be legal anywhere regardless of anything else.
In terms of political culture right now, the side that wants to ban more is "winning". The best thing you can do if you support the other side is to just let your local TOs know that you support playing on more stages; I think a majority of TOs make their rules largely in response to what they feel the desires of their players are. Big Blue is probably hopeless to save, but maybe you contribute to the legality of some other stages.
Anyway, this is getting a bit too close to general legality chat which has its own topic. I'll leave the thread open since that topic really doesn't need a rush of Big Blue discussion, but this thread should stick to mostly discussing Big Blue.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
I find the biggest gripe people have is that "the track instantly kills them" because they think using a recovery move helps.
Myre
Smash Rookie
If people's problem is the track instantly killing them, then the game goes from "Don't get knocked off the screen!" to "Don't get knocked onto the track!" Which really shouldn't be a problem concerning legality. You just have to change your strategy. Maybe if people would allow more diverse stage selection, people would stop complaining about how "broken" some characters are.
godofrock72
Smash Cadet
Big Blue is banned because you can easily knock somebody down the the floor. Heaver characters such as Bowser or Ganondorf can't get back up in time to avoid falling (or self-destruction--it's easy to accidentally fall down there). I, too, love this stage. But it relies too much on luck to decide the outcome of the tournament.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
There's no luck involved in getting pushed onto the road. You just put yourself in a bad position. CPs are meant to give advantages and disadvantages.
Cherry64
Smash Master
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I'd be all for keeping big blue in. The cars form a decently sized battle ground, it's alittle iffy yes because of the shape of the cars and how you could be on a slant somehow screwing your range. In any case though
You CAN recover. but once your on the track it's a bad bad position, all the enemy has to do is play it smart and use a Nair and you'll be knocked back to where you where, or farther.
smash64
Smash Champion
lol cuz big blue is stupid
Linkshot
Smash Hero
You can voice your opinion, but you're expected to back it up with facts about the stage.
AfroQT
Smash Master
Lol i cant believe this is a thread.....
Thanks brawl...
Thanks brawl...
Violent-nin
Smash Ace
I like playing on Big Blue. Sadly though it will probably always stay banned. 
abhishekh
Smash Journeyman
I think that's what I meant...That classes such as gannondorf, shouldn't have to play on this stage if they don't want to, assuming they're versing someone with a considerably faster speed and better recovery.
Its different to a counterpick, because even though the opponent gets an advantage, the advantage isn't that great either that you can just do a chaingrab to the edge and you win.
But why should we disallow, say a fox vs pit or something on spear pillar?
Tourney***:
A tourney*** of a profound competitive nature is a person who feels that "fun" ruins any aspect of competition from a given video game, and thus any articles that may provide a random occurrence or event within a video game must be removed (or disregarded where appropriate).
And acting like someone talking to a 12 yearold about not doing drugs doesn't make you cool either. Sorry, but thats what it looked like when I read it and i'm sorry if I got the wrong message...
Linkshot
Smash Hero
We don't allow Fox VS Pit on Spear Pillar because the entire key to victory changes and it's just not Smash anymore.
abishekh, maybe you'd be more suited to playing AllBrawl style (all items on, at low, all non-Custom stages on, first map is random. No tactics are banned as they are part of the game.)
abishekh, maybe you'd be more suited to playing AllBrawl style (all items on, at low, all non-Custom stages on, first map is random. No tactics are banned as they are part of the game.)
iPikmin
Smash Cadet
BECAUSE IT RANDOMLY KILLS YOU!!!
this glitch was discovered long time ago...
also, at being unplayable for focusing on stage moves...
rainbow cruise is not banned >.<
this glitch was discovered long time ago...
also, at being unplayable for focusing on stage moves...
rainbow cruise is not banned >.<
TheREALShadowChaos
Smash Journeyman
How narrowminded can you be. You're all wrong. Competive players just don't like it when a game is controlled by luck. They feel that if you can win without or with few skill, due to items for example, that there is no point in playing the game. They enjoy having a goal, like getting better. And if luck is too much involved their goal is ruined and they just don't like playing without a goal. Hell why do you think that you have to unlock characters? To have a goal. It's not uncommon for people to need a goal in order to enjoy their game more.
Also, prove that items are fun. I need evidence that competive players ruin the game and take away the fun. I always thought that they made the game different, and not neccasarily worse or better. Just like soccer is different than chess, no sport is more fun, it depends on who you are.
But ontopic, I think Big Blue should probably banned for the same reason as 75m, you don't really smash anymore. You're more busy traveling through the stage than really battling with your opponent.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
oh No You Didn't
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Obvious troll is obvious?
Big Blue is banned simply because it is not an ideal stage for a fair fight. "Fair" meaning that the stage won't go "Ohey missed me bai".
Of course, I actually do support this stage moving up to CP/B, but no further, really. TO's discretion only.
Big Blue is banned simply because it is not an ideal stage for a fair fight. "Fair" meaning that the stage won't go "Ohey missed me bai".
Of course, I actually do support this stage moving up to CP/B, but no further, really. TO's discretion only.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Well, the "pros" have redefined Smash as "Only the character hitting its opponent while they can do something about it," which is why they allow so few stages.
OutlawStar
Smash Apprentice
Big Blue is one of the most fun stages.
Soon there will be a total of 3 legal stages.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Pfft. Even the pros want to be able to counterpick.
bearer_of_the_triforce
Smash Cadet
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BB is awesome! Banning it is just plain fail.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
BB is fail! Banning it is just plain awesome.
Mumble
Smash Apprentice
Yeah like, your focus is fixed to the track now, not the other player.
I mean idk, I'm trying to find a way to compare Rainbow Cruise to Big Blue as a stage where
"you're focusing on whats going on around you, as opposed to what your opponent is doing."
I really don't like Big Blue though, and think it should be banned.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Fail is awesome! Banning it is just plain BB.
Anyway, Big Blue is unliked, but has no one-tactic that completely dominates the game, no completely random rewards to a single player, and matches don't go to the timer most of the time, making it automatically a candidate for CP.
Due to the large dislike, though, it would be put in the CP/B section.
Anyway, Big Blue is unliked, but has no one-tactic that completely dominates the game, no completely random rewards to a single player, and matches don't go to the timer most of the time, making it automatically a candidate for CP.
Due to the large dislike, though, it would be put in the CP/B section.
Pierce7d
Wise Hermit
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Eh, I think Big Blue should be banned because MK and Pit are unbeatable here if they camp correctly.
Linkshot
Smash Hero
Since when isn't MK nearly unbeatable? Do you have the evidence that they're completely unbeatable, no counters, or are you just exaggerating to hope that this stays banned?
Waffle Can
Smash Apprentice
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I like to compare Big Blue to Rumble Falls... (personally I think both should be CP. CP/Banned at the very least.)
Like its been mentioned before, for the most part its everyone's dislike for the maps that they're firmly rooted as being banned.
Its kinda like getting a toddler to eat their vegetables. Its good for them, but they're going to spit and kick and cry everytime you try to get them to eat. But once they get older and realize they can taste good (yum stirfry) or that they're good for you, its much more readily accepted.
I just wish we could skip the toddler stage of brawl stage bias.
Like its been mentioned before, for the most part its everyone's dislike for the maps that they're firmly rooted as being banned.
Its kinda like getting a toddler to eat their vegetables. Its good for them, but they're going to spit and kick and cry everytime you try to get them to eat. But once they get older and realize they can taste good (yum stirfry) or that they're good for you, its much more readily accepted.
I just wish we could skip the toddler stage of brawl stage bias.