why isnt melee HUGE?

[Perpz]

ive played almost every game competitively on the MLG gamelist, i recently picked up ssbm and i cant seem to figure it out, why isnt melee bigger than the rest of these ****ty games? halo 3=put the dot on their head and pull right trigger, gow 2= press A a ****load... but super smash is much deeper. when it is played on a very high level it seems almost impossible to fully understand what is going on. the strategy involved, and the sheer skill blows me away. im trying to get all my friends off the halo bandwagon and to give smash a shot. it blew me away, and i hope it will for them as well...

 

[EPsilon933]

MLG uses popular games on the circuit. Halo 3 is super popular. Also, there's a little bit more skill to shooter games than just aiming. There are objective game types in halo like capture the flag, oddball, and king of the hill, which all take teamwork and strategy. Even in team slayer games, both sides need communication and teamwork to carry out strategies for map control, positioning, holding power weapons, etc. Halo at high levels of competition is very difficult. It may not look like it, but top players in MLG's Halo are very fast.

Shooter games are so easy to get into because more than half the gameplay is the same as any other shooter. Halo became popular because of good marketing.

If you're trying to get you're friends into Smash Brothers, try playing a character just weak enough so that your friends can win about half the time. You don't want to intimidate or discourage them.

 

[Terra~]

Melee is a little bit older now as well, as a game it's still huge. I mean it can still sell for full price even used :O
Most sold Gamecube game, first game most people owned, that can be kinda sad, oh well.

But on a competitive level, it's getting older, what can we say/do

 

[Perpz]

ya there is some basic teamwork going on, nothing more than callouts tho. ive played halo since the beginning, and i think it is too easy...

 

[defsithe]

i miss 2005-2007, best time to play melee.

 

[S.G.]

I think it's easier to interpret the skill level in other games than it is in Smash
thinking about commentary, a noob audience will be more easily impressed by "OMGZ look at that 180 hs"
then it would be with "JC shine > wavedash > thunders combo > shine upsmash" they wouldn't really understand whats going on or why its impressive

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

Competitive Halo (especially Halo 2) in teams of 4 takes a considerable amount of skill, but it's a different kind of skill compared to Smash. You've probably grown numb to Halo's type of skill, but it's definitely still there. Teamwork, fast fingers (especially in Halo 2), extensive knowledge of the maps/powerups/weapon locations and respawn times, deep knowledge about how to control the map and position your team correctly, and bouncing back when set strategies don't go as planned using skill and creativity are really obvious and really admirable when I watch competitive Halo matches.

Smash is a really good competitive game as well, but pretty different compared to Halo. Technical skill plays a much larger factor in Smash than Halo, and mindgames replace teamwork in terms of who can gain control of the field and manipulate the opponent to your advantage. In essence, you've simply become numb to the skill Halo takes after playing it for so long, and Smash offers something different.

As for why it's not huge.. blame Brawl D< No, I'm kidding. Brawl has, however, taken SSBM's spot on MLG's game list. There's also a much larger gap between newbies and pros in Smash and Halo due to the extensive amount of tech skill that must be learned, while any newb in Halo can pull off a headshot and any newb group can form basic team tactics in Halo.

Smash is a great game and I really hope your friends join you o:

 

[Anth0ny]

CUZ SAMSH IS A KIDDY GGAEM FOR TWO YRS OLDS

duh.

 

[soma ghost]

It's old, that's it. If they re released the exact same game on the wii the game would probably get a ton of new younger players that don't own gamecubes.

 

[SunriseW12]

I really wish they would re-release it... Even if they added absolutely nothing except slightly better graphics or more music or stages or something it would still be so great

 

[SDC]

as its been stated before, halo and gears of war are more popular competitively because they are:

1. beginner friendly: melee requires much more from a beginner in order to beat a skilled player then do halo and gears. it requires much tech skill knowledge and prowess, much stage knowledge, and alot of character matchup information. halo you can just grab the rocket launcher if you want to beat the guy whos good.

2. lack of gameplay depth: as much as you who also play halo will not admit, shooters are just what they are called: point and shoot. yes there is strategy involved, there are stage techniques and information about each stage to be learned, but the gameplay boils down to: point and shoot (headshot). melee differs in that you must, say for instance with mew2: d-tilt, wavedash (tech chase), grab, a, d-throw, tech chase (wavedash), d-tilt again, tech chase, and either repeat the process or just go for a nair of fair. this is only a small example with one character. the amount of gameplay depth prohibits some people from being good at it, some people just cant deal with all that at once. alot of (stupid) people just like halo for its extreme simplicity, and there are alot of (stupid) people out there like this (no offense to any halo players here), i know alot of them. gameplay complexity is melee's greatest strength, and yet however, when it comes to the mainstream audience, also its greatest weakness.

3. halo and gears of war have blood, explosions, shooting with giant ****ing guns, grenades, and chainsaws. in gears 2 you can chainsaw somebody from the buthole up (i'll be honest here, its ****ing awesome).
melee has jigglypuff, pikachu, fox, kirby, peach, and other friendly looking little critters.
its a large difference in material and content: melee has kid friendly looking characters, and in gears of war you can chainsaw somebody in half. to an insecure male suburban teen compensating for lack of self image, one seems childish and lame while the other seems badass and cool.

there are other reasons, but those are the ones i thought of right now lol, anyone else?

 

[rhan]

The OP makes shooters seem so simple.

Halo 3 and Gears go into just as much depth as SSBM does. There are many things to learn and many stratigies to be made. It's not all about shoot this ***** and run.

 

[Jihnsius]

Melee has a steep learning curve. There's so many things going on at once that you have to learn over years of playing to just process it at a fast enough pace to keep up with the professionals. That's not including time spent learning techskill (quite a lot for a fighting game,) individual character matchups (also a huge amount of knowledge,) and not to mention the inclusion of variable stages.

Most other fighting games are easily broken down into two things: learn your character's mechanics, learn that character's matchups.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

2. lack of gameplay depth: as much as you who also play halo will not admit, shooters are just what they are called: point and shoot. yes there is strategy involved, there are stage techniques and information about each stage to be learned, but the gameplay boils down to: point and shoot (headshot). melee differs in that you must, say for instance with mew2: d-tilt, wavedash (tech chase), grab, a, d-throw, tech chase (wavedash), d-tilt again, tech chase, and either repeat the process or just go for a nair of fair. this is only a small example with one character. the amount of gameplay depth prohibits some people from being good at it, some people just cant deal with all that at once. alot of (stupid) people just like halo for its extreme simplicity, and there are alot of (stupid) people out there like this (no offense to any halo players here), i know alot of them. gameplay complexity is melee's greatest strength, and yet however, when it comes to the mainstream audience, also its greatest weakness.

Shooters try to mimic war. At the very basic level, it includes two opposing teams on various maps with equal access to resources attempting to gain an advantage over the other team. It's pretty much like real life military combat over the ages, though somewhat simplified and equalized (since both teams start with the same number of people and weapons.) Go tell Sun Tzu or West Point Academy that military combat takes no strategy, and see what they say.

Shooters are very deep games as well. At the highest competitive level, extremely skillful players and teams fight for something extremely important called 'map control'. The careful positioning of teammates, effective use of timed weapon and powerup respawns, and individual skill to win in a 1v1 or 2v1 setting and continue controlling the area all come together to decide which team emerges victorious, and this is in a simply slayer game as well. With objective games, it becomes even more strategious. It is most definitely NOT point and shoot, since that completely ignores the entire teamwork aspect of the game.

Also, you cannot simply ride the rocket launcher to defeat the guy who's "better". That's flawed competitively in a number of ways. First, the scenario you described assumes a free for all setting, and second, if the guy is truly "better" they will have the rocket launcher before you, no questions asked.

I have a lot of experience regarding the logistical sides of both competitive Halo and Smash (even though I've never participated in any tournies before). Maybe you made a mistake, but making assumptions based on a free for all novice experience in Halo makes it seem that that's all you know Halo for.

 

[Masmasher@]

I dont know you tell me.

Both shooter and fighting games are the most technical genres of games out there.

 

[keeper]

I wish more people cared enough to learn how to play Melee.

Now-a-days, it's either a ****ing FPS (most of my friends), or Brawl because when they play me in Brawl I don't entirely destroy them because no combos. People don't want to have to put effort into anything that requires perfection.

 

[Ja]

ive played almost every game competitively on the MLG gamelist, i recently picked up ssbm and i cant seem to figure it out, why isnt melee bigger than the rest of these ****ty games? halo 3=put the dot on their head and pull right trigger, gow 2= press A a ****load... but super smash is much deeper. when it is played on a very high level it seems almost impossible to fully understand what is going on. the strategy involved, and the sheer skill blows me away. im trying to get all my friends off the halo bandwagon and to give smash a shot. it blew me away, and i hope it will for them as well...

Where do you live? If it's near me, I'll practice with you.

 

[Sukai]

The OP makes shooters seem so simple.

Halo 3 and Gears go into just as much depth as SSBM does. There are many things to learn and many stratigies to be made. It's not all about shoot this ***** and run.

Shooters are simple.

 

[Pi]

Smash is not online
It's primarily a 1v1 fighter
It's old
There's a newer version
It's been marketed as a casual game
It's very deep, very very deep

 

[Vsin]

SSBM is borederline vaporware.

Also, Brawl is out, and it's newer. MLG apparently is thinking of including Brawl "soon", while they completely dropped SSBM.

 

[bobson]

People don't want to have to put effort into anything that requires perfection.

Forgive us if we don't want to spend a year of our life practicing to be able to put up a fighting chance in a video game that's over seven years old.

 

[Pi]

Forgive us if we don't want to spend a year of our life practicing to be able to put up a fighting chance in a video game that's over seven years old.

lol
Tech skill is really minor and relatively easy to learn
a year is greatly exaggerating

And you say it like it's work
And why even mention it's age...

 

[1048576]

as its been stated before, halo and gears of war are more popular competitively because they are:

1. beginner friendly: melee requires much more from a beginner in order to beat a skilled player then do halo and gears. it requires much tech skill knowledge and prowess, much stage knowledge, and alot of character matchup information. halo you can just grab the rocket launcher if you want to beat the guy whos good.

2. lack of gameplay depth: as much as you who also play halo will not admit, shooters are just what they are called: point and shoot. yes there is strategy involved, there are stage techniques and information about each stage to be learned, but the gameplay boils down to: point and shoot (headshot). melee differs in that you must, say for instance with mew2: d-tilt, wavedash (tech chase), grab, a, d-throw, tech chase (wavedash), d-tilt again, tech chase, and either repeat the process or just go for a nair of fair. this is only a small example with one character. the amount of gameplay depth prohibits some people from being good at it, some people just cant deal with all that at once. alot of (stupid) people just like halo for its extreme simplicity, and there are alot of (stupid) people out there like this (no offense to any halo players here), i know alot of them. gameplay complexity is melee's greatest strength, and yet however, when it comes to the mainstream audience, also its greatest weakness.

3. halo and gears of war have blood, explosions, shooting with giant ****ing guns, grenades, and chainsaws. in gears 2 you can chainsaw somebody from the buthole up (i'll be honest here, its ****ing awesome).
melee has jigglypuff, pikachu, fox, kirby, peach, and other friendly looking little critters.
its a large difference in material and content: melee has kid friendly looking characters, and in gears of war you can chainsaw somebody in half. to an insecure male suburban teen compensating for lack of self image, one seems childish and lame while the other seems badass and cool.

there are other reasons, but those are the ones i thought of right now lol, anyone else?

Fox is not friendly looking. He cusses you out every time he blocks.

 

[soma ghost]

What a bunch of whining commies. "Why cant they just make a game where everybody wins and the difference between great ones and noobies is only one stock". People cant deal with failure anymore even if its in a video game. The amount of practice it takes to become a great melee player is what makes the game so amazing, Ive been playing since it came out and I'm still getting better all the time. Maybe brawl was put together by Obama.

 

[bobson]

Tech skill is really minor and relatively easy to learn

For someone with no experience and average fingers (that is, the fingers of an average person, not an average Melee player)?
And tech skill isn't even the half of it.

And you say it like it's work

Losing every single ****ing match because everyone around you has been playing for years and you don't stand the slightest chance against them while still trying to become good at the game is much more like work than fun.

Melee's age has brought about a "skill wall" that keeps new players from coming in unless they're very determined, and most people aren't. It's very hard to get into a game where everyone around you has been playing for a long time and you have literally no chance of competing with them until you've done the same... assuming that they aren't getting better themselves.

 

[soma ghost]

Their is no skill wall, and why would you play competitively if you aren't determined? All the things your saying are the reasons melee is so good, it reinforces the idea that practice makes perfect, and that there really is no perfect, you can always get better.

 

[황미영]

Determination should be what drives you to do better. If you're not determined and you complain or whine then you have no reason to. In anything that is what gets you places. One does not simply just win. All these people that got to the point that they are now is because they were determined to be as good as the pros. You also need to learn to play smart.

 

[bobson]

All the things your saying are the reasons melee is so good, it reinforces the idea that practice makes perfect, and that there really is no perfect, you can always get better.

Determination should be what drives you to do better. If you're not determined and you complain or whine then you have no reason to. In anything that is what gets you places. One does not simply just win. All these people that got to the point that they are now is because they were determined to be as good as the pros. You also need to learn to play smart.

It's a mother****ing video game. If I have to jump through hoops for half a year failing hopelessly before I can have fun, I'm not playing it.

I can enjoy the Melee scene for what it is, but don't go wondering why new people aren't joining in when they have to devote over half a year to training to even place.

 

[Deleted member]

Here's some reasons

1. GameCube is old news
2. There's a new version out
3. The games closing in on 8 years old
4. The community is shrinking
5. The game is pretty tough for new players, and Brawl has an easier curve
6. It's considered a kiddy game
7. Newbies don't enjoy getting combo'd to death

Just a few reasons off the top of my head.

 

[chize]

For someone with no experience and average fingers (that is, the fingers of an average person, not an average Melee player)?
And tech skill isn't even the half of it.


Losing every single ****ing match because everyone around you has been playing for years and you don't stand the slightest chance against them while still trying to become good at the game is much more like work than fun.

Melee's age has brought about a "skill wall" that keeps new players from coming in unless they're very determined, and most people aren't. It's very hard to get into a game where everyone around you has been playing for a long time and you have literally no chance of competing with them until you've done the same... assuming that they aren't getting better themselves.

tech skill IS easy to learn for the average person IMO, it just takes a little practice for muscle memory to kick in, you can learn ways to play smarter by playing better people, looking at the boards, and watching matches on youtube

i have as much fun losing to better players as winning even if i lose every single match, i ask those players for advice then i keep playing them so i could apply it, they also drive me to be better at the game

i dont believe in this "skill wall" that you are talking about, noobs like myself can learn from all that experience seasoned melee veterans have in a much more accelerated fashion then if we were trying to learn when the game just came out, so melee's age should not be a reason to stop playing it, we can get better faster if we use our resources, its not that hard

 

[SDC]

Shooters try to mimic war. At the very basic level, it includes two opposing teams on various maps with equal access to resources attempting to gain an advantage over the other team. It's pretty much like real life military combat over the ages, though somewhat simplified and equalized (since both teams start with the same number of people and weapons.) Go tell Sun Tzu or West Point Academy that military combat takes no strategy, and see what they say.

Shooters are very deep games as well. At the highest competitive level, extremely skillful players and teams fight for something extremely important called 'map control'. The careful positioning of teammates, effective use of timed weapon and powerup respawns, and individual skill to win in a 1v1 or 2v1 setting and continue controlling the area all come together to decide which team emerges victorious, and this is in a simply slayer game as well. With objective games, it becomes even more strategious. It is most definitely NOT point and shoot, since that completely ignores the entire teamwork aspect of the game.

Also, you cannot simply ride the rocket launcher to defeat the guy who's "better". That's flawed competitively in a number of ways. First, the scenario you described assumes a free for all setting, and second, if the guy is truly "better" they will have the rocket launcher before you, no questions asked.

I have a lot of experience regarding the logistical sides of both competitive Halo and Smash (even though I've never participated in any tournies before). Maybe you made a mistake, but making assumptions based on a free for all novice experience in Halo makes it seem that that's all you know Halo for.

i understand that shooters have strategy in them. yes there is much strategy in combat, and in combat simulators. there is strategy in combat, but saying halo is combat is like saying melee is martial arts. yes there is strategy in halo, but the sheer depth of gameplay in melee and halo are just not equal. not even close. you dont have to do complex techs to move quickly in halo. you dont have to do techs to speed yourself up so you dont get hit. you dont have to do complex button combinations at incredible speed just to get a few attacks in a row. halo can be complex and strategic, but its nothing compared to melee.

 

[Rubyiris]

You obviously don't understand, since your arguing with, and defending yourself against someone who pointed out solid facts, and otherwise proved you, and the OP wrong in every aspect.

Another thing; Tech skill isn't easy to everyone. In fact, outside of the BASICS, the most important aspect of technical skill is consistency. Just because I can perform just about every technical aspect of the game, doesn't mean I have absolute dominance.

One player who beats me maybe 70% of the time only L-Cancels 50% of the time, since he cannot for the life of him L-Cancel against a shield. This is because he has a natural understanding of the game, and is otherwise an incredibly smart person, with me just being an average-minded person with a load of determination, and fast fingers. A player could learn how to wavedash, and L-Cancel consistently within a month, if they put their mind to it. At that point, they should learn the useful, basic technical prowess of their individual characters, whilst focusing mostly on improving their fundamentals, which may be the most important aspect of game play. What's more important? Being able to go JC Shine - Thunders - Shine USmash, or having impeccable timing, an understanding of stage control, and spot-on spacing? The latter, obviously.

The most important thing for improving in smash is determination.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

halo is team coordination combined with reaction speed and accuracy. i enjoy playing it and i enjoy watching pro matches, but the depth and strategy is nothing to melee.

melee still hasnt hit its maximum depth, 8 years later. you have a limited area to share with someone trying to punish you for every small mistake you do. it is a super high paced game of keep away. you have to understand your opponent's strategy and movements 100% while simultaneously moving and staying unpredictable. every combo has many opportunities for escape if you make the right decision, but both players are in each other's head so much its hard to make an unexpected decision.

i'm not exaggerating when i say melee is the best game ever made. i have never found another game as deep and gratifying.

 

[chize]

the two games (melee and halo) are completely different and cannot really be compared as to which has more tech and strategy because each has its own elements

i consider myself both a hardcore melee and halo player

melee- tech reading, effective combos, approaches , di, shield pressure, edge guarding, different tech skills and mindgames etc

halo- does have a few button combos and glitches that can be used for competetive play (halo2), br aiming requires much skill esp in h3, snpr aiming, use of grenades, knowledge of map, spawn points, weapon spawns, and spawn times, mindgames such as diversions and bait, general weapons knowledge, good communication with teammates, all sorts of objectives strategies

that was just to name a few techs/strats for each, i know i put more words for halo but i love both games equally, i just dont think some people realize how much there is to halo and the skill required, but all in all one is a fighter and one is a shooter, both having their own techniques and audiences

 

[황미영]

It's a mother****ing video game. If I have to jump through hoops for half a year failing hopelessly before I can have fun, I'm not playing it.

I can enjoy the Melee scene for what it is, but don't go wondering why new people aren't joining in when they have to devote over half a year to training to even place.

Is this the best excuse when it comes to try to get good at something? Or anything for that matter? Honestly?

No one is forcing you to go and join tournaments. You can still play with your group of friends and have fun. That's what everyone is doing with Brawl. And what's with this time frame? This game does not take that long to get good at. Before when it started out maybe, because no one knew that much. But at this point in time, I think anybody could just go on the internet and find out how to do what the pros do.

 

[Rubyiris]

halo is team coordination combined with reaction speed and accuracy. i enjoy playing it and i enjoy watching pro matches, but the depth and strategy is nothing to melee.

melee still hasnt hit its maximum depth, 8 years later. you have a limited area to share with someone trying to punish you for every small mistake you do. it is a super high paced game of keep away. you have to understand your opponent's strategy and movements 100% while simultaneously moving and staying unpredictable. every combo has many opportunities for escape if you make the right decision, but both players are in each other's head so much its hard to make an unexpected decision.

i'm not exaggerating when i say melee is the best game ever made. i have never found another game as deep and gratifying.

Tetris is the best game, in the history of ever.

Melee is a second.

It does take a long time to get good at this game. Mango's been playing since Ken held bi-weeklies, and look at him now. That's like, what? 5 years? M2K's been playing longer than even that. Most of the old top players played back in 01/02, before they moved onto Brawl, and players like Chu still play.

I've been playing since 06, and I'm not even as good as the average player in California.

 

[lordvaati]

that's like saying why isn't Street Fighter II or Marvel vs. Capcom 2 huge.

age sucks. also wasn't Melee stated as the second most popular MLG game of all time?

 

[Taj278]

Yeah, age sucks... that's why Starcraft died out... OH WAIT.

Melee had player caps at MLG events while Halo did not.

 

[A Pimp Named Slickback]

yeah but Taj, Starcraft has an entire country devoted to it.

 

[Jihnsius]

I think the main determining factor in why Melee isn't as popular as other competitive games is the exact same reason we wonder why it's not -- it's extremely deep. High level play can't be understood at face value by others. Mind, the technical aspects of the game are very basic and could be understood by anyone that's played a fighting game before, it's the extreme open-endedness that makes the game deep. It's an extremely situational game in which you must have a huge amount of knowledge and ability to create and use case construction.

Most other competitive videogames are very easy to understand at face value, though that's not saying that they're not technical or deep. Starcraft is an exception, in my opinion it's only game that has more to know and understand to be able to compete or enjoy watching people compete than Melee. As for low level players playing high level players, fighting games happen to be one of the only genre of games in which you can get severely locked down by a better player and feel completely hopeless, and Melee is no exception. If you have the freedom to actually play a game, whether you lose by an inch or a mile, you'll feel a lot better about playing again than if you weren't allowed to move from your spawn point without being destroyed. Note than even if you have no intentions of playing a game competitively, not everyone, and I'd imagine a good majority of people, don't even decide to get into something competitively, it just slowly happens after doing a lot of recreational play. My point is this: if you can't play something you've just picked up without being able to affect the playing field, chances are you won't want to keep trying, and you'll just give up. It's happened in Melee to many others that play fighting games competitively, and this is the very same reason most other hardcore fighting game fans hate Melee. It's just too hard to even grasp what's going on if you haven't been there before.

As for the argument that the game can't be enjoyed without dedicating a lot of time to be able to compete with high level players: simple, stop playing high level players. It's not the fact that you can't enjoy the game, it's the fact that you don't enjoy playing it at the level that certain others do. You can play with other non-competitive players and have fun. In fact, that's why this game was made, it's only by accident that it became as deep and intense as it did. Come to think of it, if you're not interested in competing and improving, why are you even on this forum? And for that matter why does anyone bother practicing any other sport or hobby if they don't think they'll ever be able to beat the professionals?