Why we can't wait to ban Metaknight

[Eddie G]

Arguing does no good when it doesn't contribute to the topic at hand.

Just throwing it out there.

As if we've progressed anywhere to begin with.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I won't be giving any rules just to help the noobs out there, that would be anti competitive. This ain't Mario Kart wii. I don't care if this mentality was what ends up killing the game, i'd rather not play a game than just make concessions for people who aren't as good just to make them feel better.

This is why rules like banning d3s infinite make me sick and other rules. And yes, I am not "nice", I am 100% douche. This is a competitive forum about a game played in tournaments, play to win. Inui is right, I suck at being nice(even people irl know I act cold), and I also suck at English.

Now you can either suck it up and get better, or continue on saying that noobs matter, go whine about w/e character is beating you and continue on being terrible at the game.

You know, I can actually see what your coming from.

I'll leave it here since, to be blunt. I don't know what to say.

 

[Kuraudo]

Overswarm has not done anything wrong with making this post.

There is nothing wrong with Omni's either. This isn't about evening the odds. This is a topic on banning Meta Knight. Omni's is about not banning Meta Knight. Both are presented and always seen and lost amongst the sea of posts that are here and debated on.

I'll support the Anti-Ban's right to state their case, just as Pro-Ban has prominently done so here.

I'm just on Pro-Ban's side here. Ban that ****er MK. xD;

 

[theunabletable]

I'm a little disgusted at the way you choose to represent your stance. Grow up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem

And, christ, it was a joke.

 

[Inui]

@Inui: Your posts are so much cooler when you post Phoenix Wright gifs XD

Why, thank you, good sir!

If the lower end of the game matters so much, why don't we have a tier list for lower level players? You guys don't ***** about the tier list only applying to the highest level, among other things.

If you're too bad to compete in this game, THAT SUCKS FOR YOU.

The tier lists are based on the higher levels of play indeed. Rules are based on the higher levels of play. Only high-level opinions tend to matter in the grand scheme of things.

Why is this?

It's not because we sit in the SBR and think you're all scrubs. It's not because we're elitist pricks. Well, I'm elitist, but it's not the only reason.

It's because catering to scrubs and scrub mentalities hinders everyone's growth as a player. We shouldn't consider lower levels of play to be acceptable. We want everyone to be good. Everyone should shoot for Ally and ADHD's skill levels to beat the best MK like they can half the time or even more and beat every other MK along the way. It's possible. Those kids did it. You can too.

Banning MK will show that the SBR caters to lower levels. It's like us saying "it's okay, we banned the big bad MK for you, so now your low tier main can place one spot higher in tournaments and/or you don't have to work hard to overcome a better character to win." What does that do? It weakens the scene.

NJ/NY = the strongest region. By far. Pound 4 results proved it. Results everywhere prove it. With Mew2King's residence being there most of his life, Ally coming down 90% of the time, and ADHD, Shadow, Anti, Atomsk, ksizzle, dmbrandon, Inui, MalcolmM, NinjaLink, and a plethora of other incredible players there, we are the best. Look at our rankings. We are an MK-infested region with many incredible MKs there. M2K, ksizzle, Shadow, dmbrandon, Inui, Anti, and Atomsk all use MK either a lot or all the time and are among the top 20 or so MKs on Earth probably.

MK made us stronger. Our anti-MK game is crazy. NinjaLink poops on a lot of them and has a nice history of beating MKs. Atomsk took two sets from Anti's with ICs and can do the same to Shadow's. Ally's Snake can and does beat all of our MKs. ADHD beats all of the MKs. A lot of our players name MK as their best match-up and most will say it's at least one of their best ones.

Even among our non-MK players, it's hard to find people that are pro-ban.

 

[Delvro]

You know why OS posted pictures and statistics?

Because that's what the Anti-Ban side was ****ing ASKING for!

That burns me up... =_=

^This. This kind of thing has been happening for years. YEARS.

It's like arguing against creastionists. "Well I haven't seen you PROVE that we're wrong!"

People seems to forget that this game has been out for years. There is no mentality factor. There is no "laziness" factor (always laugh at this one). There is no "scrub level of play" factor. This is the metagame, plain and simple.

OS included 150+ tournaments only FOR A REASON. I don't see why people are talking about how banning metaknight caters to low levels of play. It doesn't (any more than it caters to high levels of play).

People love to view things in black + white. Wanna know why more people don't play metaknight? Because they're not willing to sacrifice everything to win. There's a negative stigma to using metaknight, and many of us do not wish to put up with the jokes, bad looks, or derisive comments that often come with using him. And all I can say is, thank you all for creating this negative stigma.

 

[_Keno_]

Therefore you concluded that Melee Fox, even though he's the best character, is beatable because of his learning curve, therefore he's not bannable. But you switched this around for Metaknight saying he's bannable because he's the best character in the game while being easy to learn.

I wasn't referring to learning curves, I was referring to how in brawl, character choice has a much larger outcome on a match than in melee. Or at least it just seems that way to me.

 

[RDK]

^This. This kind of thing has been happening for years. YEARS.

It's like arguing against creastionists. "Well I haven't seen you PROVE that we're wrong!"

People seems to forget that this game has been out for years. There is no mentality factor. There is no "laziness" factor (always laugh at this one). There is no "scrub level of play" factor. This is the metagame, plain and simple.

OS included 150+ tournaments only FOR A REASON. I don't see why people are talking about how banning metaknight caters to low levels of play. It doesn't (any more than it caters to high levels of play).

People love to view things in black + white. Wanna know why more people don't play metaknight? Because they're not willing to sacrifice everything to win. There's a negative stigma to using metaknight, and many of us do not wish to put up with the jokes, bad looks, or derisive comments that often come with using him. And all I can say is, thank you all for creating this negative stigma.

You have the analogy ***-backwards. Pro-ban is quite obviously the side employing creationist modes of thought.

Non-objective ban criteria (I.E. because I feel like MK is bad) = supernaturalism. Objective ban criteria = methodological naturalism.

Late in his post OS used a graph of Brawl tourney attendance decline. How does that bear any correlation to MK whatsoever? Graphs mean nothing if they're irrelevant.

 

[Eddie G]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_Hominem

And, christ, it was a joke.

I don't care, it wasn't funny.

 

[Delvro]

No, it's not backwards. Anti-ban has asked for proof that MK is broken. And then it was given. They asked for more. It was given. I've seen endless arguments and listened to podcasts and this happens every time.

OS has given yet more proof, and again, I hear anti-ban say "not good enough".

So I ask..... What is good enough?

 

[theunabletable]

A fail joke disgusts you?

INTERNET: SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS

Lighten up a little

OS has given yet more proof, and again, I hear anti-ban say "not good enough".

Just because I make a thread about something and give some proof doesn't automatically mean said proof is valid.

 

[Eddie G]

A fail joke disgusts you?

INTERNET: SUPER SERIOUS BUSINESS

Lighten up a little

No worries, I have a good sense of humor. It's just something about the way you've represented your stance before the joke, funny guy.

 

[Delvro]

So what exactly is valid proof, if the evidence here is not?

 

[adumbrodeus]

No, it's not backwards. Anti-ban has asked for proof that MK is broken. And then it was given. They asked for more. It was given. I've seen endless arguments and listened to podcasts and this happens every time.

OS has given yet more proof, and again, I hear anti-ban say "not good enough".

So I ask..... What is good enough?

That's the thing, even from a strict Sirlian prospective, we don't really have a criteria. The closest we have is a flat "50% of the cast hard-countered".


That's always been my number 1 beef with this discussion, people were trying to prove MK was broken with no real standard as to what broken is.

So what exactly is valid proof, if the evidence here is not?

Nothing is without a criteria. That's what people need to do first. But in order to do that, the criteria must rest on evidence that hasn't been discovered yet otherwise each side will attempt to shape the criteria to match it's goals.

 

[J4pu]

Late in his post OS used a graph of Brawl tourney attendance decline. How does that bear any correlation to MK whatsoever? Graphs mean nothing if they're irrelevant.

There have been multiple times I've heard anti-ban'ners ask for proof that the brawl scene is dying, they always seem to think the attendance is just as high or higher than it's ever been with the common "look at 'recent national tournament' 's attendance" response. Granted OS's chart doesn't show that the decline is due to MK, but people can no longer just disbelieve the fact that the competitive scene is dwindling, so it does serve some purpose, just not the whole purpose it attempted to prove.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

That's the thing, even from a strict Sirlian prospective, we don't really have a criteria. The closest we have is a flat "50% of the cast hard-countered".


That's always been my number 1 beef with this discussion, people were trying to prove MK was broken with no real standard as to what broken is.

Isn't it just going to come down to what people think is broken? Or rather for people who do agree on it.

If people don't know what it is they have to draw a line for themselves.

 

[Delvro]

That's the thing, even from a strict Sirlian prospective, we don't really have a criteria. The closest we have is a flat "50% of the cast hard-countered".


That's always been my number 1 beef with this discussion, people were trying to prove MK was broken with no real standard as to what broken is.

This is so true. And EVERYONE knows it... yet we continue to bicker about it.

We cannot continue to have a hung jury over the matter. There is no precedent to look up to. Many attempts have been made to establish one, but we can't seem to agree on that either (since it determines MK's fate). It's a vicious circle.

 

[Omni]

OS's attendance chart is off.

Read about it in the other thread.

 

[adumbrodeus]

There have been multiple times I've heard anti-ban'ners ask for proof that the brawl scene is dying, they always seem to think the attendance is just as high or higher than it's ever been with the common "look at 'recent national tournament' 's attendance" response. Granted OS's chart doesn't show that the decline is due to MK, but people can no longer just disbelieve the fact that the competitive scene is dwindling, so it does serve some purpose, just not the whole purpose it attempted to prove.

Except, the chart doesn't account for the possibility of reporting errors or secondary effects.


It's just numbers from reported tournaments... self-selection bias much?

This is so true. And EVERYONE knows it... yet we continue to bicker about it.

We cannot continue to have a hung jury over the matter. There is no precedent to look up to. Many attempts have been made to establish one, but we can't seem to agree on that either (since it determines MK's fate). It's a vicious circle.

Well people need to ****ing get their a**es in gear and do something about it. I've talked to SBR people about it, and hopefully it will be a topic of discussion in the coming months.


But at the moment this discussion is pretty useless.



As I explained before, the solution is to make it rest on evidence that does not exist. Also, make it relevant to things other then MK's ban.

Isn't it just going to come down to what people think is broken? Or rather for people who do agree on it.

If people don't know what it is they have to draw a line for themselves.

That's called "we ban whatever the **** we wanna ban".

aka "hello banning entire metagame!"

 

[Kewkky]

If you guys want super strong MUs against the whole cast as proof, I say we help the MK Forums out a bit by restarting their MU discussions, but this time talking about MK as gay as possible. I'm sure some 60:40s will lean more towards 70+:30- that way.

 

[RDK]

There have been multiple times I've heard anti-ban'ners ask for proof that the brawl scene is dying, they always seem to think the attendance is just as high or higher than it's ever been with the common "look at 'recent national tournament' 's attendance" response. Granted OS's chart doesn't show that the decline is due to MK, but people can no longer just disbelieve the fact that the competitive scene is dwindling, so it does serve some purpose, just not the whole purpose it attempted to prove.

Correlation does not prove causation.

And I still don't even think that graph is accurate; I remember either Ankoku or Panda posting in one of these threads about how the idea that tournament attendance having a big decrease supposedly "because of MK" was a lie anyway because tournament attendance is not down.

OS's graph is bogus, it's been pointed out several times.

Not to mention we just had one of the biggest tournaments we've had in a while; it's amazing pro-ban even brings the "scene is dying" argument up.

 

[RDK]

Except, the chart doesn't account for the possibility of reporting errors or secondary effects.


It's just numbers from reported tournaments... self-selection bias much?




Well people need to ****ing get their a**es in gear and do something about it. I've talked to SBR people about it, and hopefully it will be a topic of discussion in the coming months.


But at the moment this discussion is pretty useless.



As I explained before, the solution is to make it rest on evidence that does not exist. Also, make it relevant to things other then MK's ban.




That's called "we ban whatever the **** we wanna ban".

aka "hello banning entire metagame!"

Speaking of which I think it would be pertinent to try and revive your thread about what pro-ban needs to do to make steps towards a valid ban criteria. Tournament evidence, etc.

Sorry about the double post.

 

[SwastikaPyle]

I never really had a for or against position for the ban, but I would just like to say that the Metaknight dominance is pretty much exactly why I play Melee now.

I still think the game would open up enormously if Metaknight was banned, but in the interests of staying competitive, it seems we've sacrificed the fun factor and tournament attendance, and thus, probably sacrificed the game's competitive future.

You can stay as true to your competitive principles as you like, but I'm pretty sure it is pulverising the metagame and tournament attendance.

 

[AllyKnight]

Meta Knight is dominant is the US, but other than that there's no good reason he should be banned. In fact, dominance seems to be your only argument. I can only agree that Meta Knight is dominant. Pound 4's results show how dominant Meta Knight can be without competition. Even the best Snake player, Ally, took the risk of playing Meta Knight (however, failed miserably).

Personally, I don't think Meta Knight should be banned. There's one simple problem that needs to be overcome: the SBR doesn't have criteria for a ban.

Meta Knight causes dominance, dropping attendance numbers, an arguably less enjoyable game and more passive playstyles. In the US it seems banning Meta Knight would definitely make the game more interesting. And looking at Pound 4's results I honestly don't think it would be a bad idea. Maybe it's a good idea to look what happens in the next 4 months, if Meta Knight really stays dominant. Maybe I have to reconsider my view on this. I voted anti ban (when I still was in the sbr > : ( lol ) last time, maybe I won't this time.

Europe, unlike the US, doesn't have multiple dominant Meta Knights ( ). So I guess we're cool here.

I fail with MK for now, I'm using tornado now, let's see the results.

Arguing does no good when it doesn't contribute to the topic at hand.

Just throwing it out there.

It won't lead to anywhere, SBR has the word, this is so useless.

 

[Hyro]

...if Meta Knight was gone...Toon Link would be unstoppable... :o

wooo go overswarm

 

[Omni]

lol you're a jerk hyro

<3

 

[Inui]

...if Meta Knight was gone...Toon Link would be unstoppable... :o

wooo go overswarm

MM my MK, scr00b.

 

[Mecakoto]

Welcome to an opinion. Enjoy your stay.

I enter this thread and see a Back Room member has posted it. I read it in hopes that some new argument had come up.

I read to find that it is nothing more then the same arguments as the last time this topic came up. No amount of pictures will ever change that.

I leave highly disappointed and with an ever increasing confidence that things like this are the reason I never say "I play SSBB on a competitive level" out loud unless I am around fellow Brawl players AND building more foundation in my decision to go to Brawl+ for competitive play (leaving Brawl as just a local tournament option)

I will say this however: Tournament attendance has less to do with Meta and more to do with the following:

1) Roughly 3 other major fighting titles have come out recently in the last 6 Months
2) Brawl just doesn't have the spark of longevity that something like Melee (or SSB) has
3) Brawl doesn't have any hype left and hasn't built much for a while
4) Watching matches is just... Meh.

MK is the best character, hands down. He shuts down a lot of characters. HE IS NOT BROKEN. HE IS GREAT. Broken is a 70-75/30-25 matchup against everyone in A/B tier and no less then 80/20 for everyone else. This is not MK. But feel free to ban him. One less match up I'll need to worry about.

 

[WindMajor]

Late in his post OS used a graph of Brawl tourney attendance decline. How does that bear any correlation to MK whatsoever? Graphs mean nothing if they're irrelevant.

The only thing that graphs and statistics give us are numbers. They don't give us reasons, statements, or paragraphs. We have to analyze those numbers and come up with our own reasons to explain the numbers.

This is what OS did.

Using the numbers, he saw a rise in MK's dominance and victory.
Using those same numbers, he saw a fall in overall tournament attendance.

Why can't we relate these two things? Can we not PREDICT that MK must have had something to do with this? Can we not say that MK is a part of the problem?

EDIT:

OS's graph is bogus, it's been pointed out several times.

I haven't read this entire thread yet, can you tell me where this was first pointed out?

 

[adumbrodeus]

The only thing that graphs and statistics give us are numbers. They don't give us reasons, statements, or paragraphs. We have to analyze those numbers and come up with our own reasons to explain the numbers.

This is what OS did.

Using the numbers, he saw a rise in MK's dominance and victory.
Using those same numbers, he saw a fall in overall tournament attendance.

Why can't we relate these two things? Can we not PREDICT that MK must have had something to do with this? Can we not say that MK is a part of the problem?

Correlation =/= causation, hell, we don't even know if there's a correlation, all we know is that mk is present in the metagame and now there's fewer reported tournament attendees (as opposed to actual attendees).


No proven or even suggested relationship.

 

[MarKO X]

MM my MK, scr00b.

scr00b?

really?

did inui just coin a new word?

**** it, I'm anti-ban. I would HATE to be called a scrub AND a n00b in the same word.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

hey you know what kills a community? banning the most popular character a year and a half after release. mk might seem lame now, but just like melee im sure a new character will take the spot light... then another... and another.... etc

 

[Turbo Ether]

Even among our non-MK players, it's hard to find people that are pro-ban.

Who are the non-MK players in this region that are anti-ban?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

1: ADHD (Diddy)
2: Mew2King (Metaknight)
3: Ally (Snake/Metaknight)
4: KSizzle (Metaknight/Lucario)
5: Shadow_111 (Metaknight)
5: Judge (Metaknight)
7: Havok (Metaknight)
7: Logic (Olimar)
9: Lee Martin (Lucario/Metaknight)
9: Seibrik (Metaknight)
9: Ninjalink (Diddy)
9: Lain (Ice Climbers)
13: ChuDat (Kirby)
13: Malcolm (Wario)
13: Vex Kasrani (Dedede/Bowser)
13: DEHF (Falco)
17: co18 (Dedede)
17: Sanoscy (Metaknight)
17: Candy (Snake)
17: Alpha Zealot (Diddy)
17: DjIskascribble (Metaknight)
17: Dekar (Diddy)
17: Fatal (Snake)
17: Hunger (Wario)
25: Atomsk (Dedede)
25: HAT (Dedede/Wario)
25: dmbrandon (Metaknight)
25: Cable (Donkey Kong)
25: Xzax (Metaknight)
25: Infern Angelis (Snake)
25: Ling Ling (Dedede)
25: Bizkit (Snake)
33: jtails (Diddy)
33: Smash64 (Ness)
33: Dapuffster (Jigglypuff/Diddy)
33: Y.B.M. (Kirby)
33: Omni (Metaknight)
33: Stingers (Metaknight/ROB)
33: Junebug (Lucario/DK)
33: Bloodcross (Marth???)
33: Jash (Toon Link)
33: Hyro (Toon Link)
33: Takeover (Snake)
33: Boss (Luigi)
33: Mikey Lenetia (Peach)
33: Zucco (Lucario)
33: Pierce (Marth)
33: NEO (Marth)

I count 15 MK's overall counting people who didn't go solo MK.

 

[Black Marf]

Except, the chart doesn't account for the possibility of reporting errors or secondary effects.


It's just numbers from reported tournaments... self-selection bias much?

It doesn't account for the possibility of reporting errors, but there could have been reporting errors earlier on as well. Reporting errors can occur at any time, and it's possible that the decline is actually sharper than the graph shows.

So there is most likely a decline, but no basis for what caused the decline.

 

[Inui]

scr00b?

really?

did inui just coin a new word?

**** it, I'm anti-ban. I would HATE to be called a scrub AND a n00b in the same word.

Nah, New England players like mikeray4 were using it first. I like it.

Who are the non-MK players in this region that are anti-ban?

I can't name many pro-ban players in our area. Uh... Pierce. PRiDE used to be. Um...anyone else???

 

[Omni]

01 Mago (Sa) 555.033
02 Daigo (Ry) 375.365
03 Ojisan Boy (Sa) 357.451
04 RF (Sa) 299.149
05 Tokido (Go) 214.968
06 Uryo (Vi) 199.367
07 Momochi (Go) 192.492
08 Shiro (Ab) 192.209
09 Radiowave (Sa) 192.065
10 Rikuson (Sa) 173.081
11 Eita (Go) 168.420
12 Kindevu (Ru) 164.788
13 Oaru (Sa) 147.768
14 Hamaa (Sa) 147.269
15 Akua (Sa) 143.007
16 Hishou (Sa) 141.644
17 Pie (Sa) 140.652
18 MDR (Ru) 137.408
19 Bean (Sa) 136.295
20 Akame Ryu (Ry) 135.690
21 Momochi (Ry) 135.551
22 Dragon Boy (Ke) 132.301
23 Gachihomottsun (Sa) 130.983
24 Nike (Ru) 130.136
25 Nuki (Ch) 129.859
26 Suropu (Sa) 127.396
27 Maakun (Sa) 125.617
28 Akimo (Ho) 124.578
29 Noriyasu (Go) 123.257
30 Chari (Bl) 123.100
31 Iyo (Dh) 118.281
32 Sutoraikusan (Ke) 117.961
33 Shinya (Go) 117.939
34 Fuudo (Ry) 116.712
35 Pamyu (Bi) 116.271
36 ACRevenger (Ab) 115.591
37 Kyomachi Blanka (Sa) 113.946
38 Katsuo (Sa) 113.164
39 Nova (Sa) 113.079
40 Shinya (Sa) 112.739
41 Furiten (Sa) 112.449
42 Yuu★ (Go) 111.912
43 Aojiru Guile (Bi) 110.672
44 Wao (Ke) 108.976
45 Cantona (Za) 108.897
46 AOI (Sa) 108.687
47 Tetsuko (Ru) 106.449
48 MaedaTaison (Bi) 105.781

How many Sagats can you count?

 

[Turbo Ether]

I can't name many pro-ban players in our area. Uh... Pierce. PRiDE used to be. Um...anyone else???

Rookie, Wes, Dire. I've neutral, than anti-ban, but now i'm leaning toward pro-ban. It'd be best to ask around, to figure out where non-MK mainers specifically stand. ZB, DA, MOB, SWR, Juice, etc. I'm sure the results would be interesting.

Actually, i'll just make a thread.

 

[Mecakoto]

1: ADHD (Diddy)
...
...

I count 15 MK's overall counting people who didn't go solo MK.

...
...

How many Sagats can you count?

19.

Meta Count: 15 out of 45.
Sagat Count: 19 out of 48.

MK: 33% of total.
SA: 39% of total.

See what I did there?

 

[Omni]

*rubs chin*

well whadddaya know. another fighting game with the same amount of dominance from one character

except Sagat actually takes the 1st and 3rd spot in the ranking

interesting