Why we can't wait to ban Metaknight

[Flayl]

Inui something is horribly wrong tho. You'd think after a year of the these two doing so well that tons would be doing the same by today. Who are they again?

The 3 players in Inui's post are the absolute best of their characters. I'm sure if you lower the bar just slightly you can find more non-MK placers.

 

[Inui]

Inui something is horribly wrong tho. You'd think after a year of the these two doing so well that tons would be doing the same by today. Who are they again?

Here's the thing that people need to understand.

MK is easier to use than Snake and Diddy. Mew2King is an amazing teacher of this game and has personally trained and tutored me, teh_spamerer, Dojo, Tyrant, DSF, Judge, Omni, and many other great MK players. He shot MK's metagame so far ahead of every other character's by training others and sharing his tips. He still actively does this because he wants to improve other players and his character.

Ally? I've never even heard of him training other Snakes or talking to them about things. I know Fatal and Bizkit learn stuff off of each other, but other Snakes are on their own from what I can tell. Is Ally talking to Candy, Razer, Fatal, Bizkit, etc. on AIM and giving them tips and sharing strategies? Does he meet up at events with other Snake and do dittos with them to learn things and train each other? I know it's an assumption, but I'm going to guess he isn't.

ADHD? Same thing as Ally, except the lack of Diddy Kongs in his area might be partially to blame for that.

Every IC player? Lol. Nobody understands that character except the top few of them, and I see nobody else doing it right.

So, people go to MK. He's easier to play and there is a solid teacher.

 

[Browny]

For those of you that like pie:

This doesnt look like much to worry about... Every game will have a best character, this level of dominance over second best doesnt look that bad.

On top of all this, I bring the worst news of all. This goes beyond the Metaknight issue, and is something I believe the entire community can attack voraciously:

This isnt entirely fair either. Ill bet its got more to do with brawl being a horrible game to play competitively and the fact that almost all the cast must camp for 8 minutes to be viable, MK just tops it off.

Im all for limiting MK somehow but these reasons dont look very fair. Its not MK's fault the brawl community is killing its own game :/

 

[Inui]

This doesnt look like much to worry about... Every game will have a best character, this level of dominance over second best doesnt look that bad.


This isnt entirely fair either. Ill bet its got more to do with brawl being a horrible game to play competitively and the fact that almost all the cast must camp for 8 minutes to be viable, MK just tops it off.

Its not MK's fault the brawl community is killing its own game :/

Dead-on, 100% correct.

Brawl isn't that good and the Brawl players kill their own game's hype. Plain and simple.

 

[Overswarm]

Here's the thing that people need to understand.

MK is easier to use than Snake and Diddy. Mew2King is an amazing teacher of this game and has personally trained and tutored me, teh_spamerer, Dojo, Tyrant, DSF, Judge, Omni, and many other great MK players. He shot MK's metagame so far ahead of every other character's by training others and sharing his tips. He still actively does this because he wants to improve other players and his character.

Ally? I've never even heard of him training other Snakes or talking to them about things. I know Fatal and Bizkit learn stuff off of each other, but other Snakes are on their own from what I can tell. Is Ally talking to Candy, Razer, Fatal, Bizkit, etc. on AIM and giving them tips and sharing strategies? Does he meet up at events with other Snake and do dittos with them to learn things and train each other? I know it's an assumption, but I'm going to guess he isn't.

ADHD? Same thing as Ally, except the lack of Diddy Kongs in his area might be partially to blame for that.

Every IC player? Lol. Nobody understands that character except the top few of them, and I see nobody else doing it right.

So, people go to MK. He's easier to play and there is a solid teacher.

I know a guy from new jersey personally training me is certainly why me, a guy in ohio, picked him up.

 

[Jack Kieser]

No, not every argument was refuted. Far from that. OS only proved that MK is the best character in the game, and MK is dominating tournaments. OS didn't say explicitly why this is a bad thing or ban-worthy, he just proved the former and proceeded to say that MK needed to be banned.

If I read the OP correctly (and I'm pretty sure I did), the implication was that the data/numbers show that the extent to which the MK dominance is happening warrants a ban, which not everyone will agree with. What's nice is that everyone doesn't have to agree with it, just the TOs.

Furthermore, the data he used was very loose. For example, the graph that shows Brawl tournament attendance declining can only be assumed to be partly due to MK. There is no evidence to prove that it's all because of MK, and it's silly to think so.

Yeah, except the TO's and players actually talking to the people quitting at tournaments know why, because they're being flat-out told. I've said multiple times that I've talked to people at events I've hosted and been flat-out told that MK is the reason they're quitting. Sure, it hasn't been any top players or anything, but top players leaving has never been the argument; the argument has been that if all the bottom players leave, the game's foundation is gone and competitive play dies out. Which was also never refuted.

Omni explains it a lot better in page 3 in his post.

And as he said, two wrongs don't make a right. You still managed to avoid responding to either my questions or Omni's counter-argument because you said, "Other people avoided my questions!" That doesn't matter and it doesn't pertain to the debate.

Well, I also already said that I consider this debate to be, effectively, over. Why debate with you about it? I don't particularly like bashing my head against brick walls (which is, coincidentally enough, why I don't like fighting planking MKs).

If you say you can write clear, concise arguments, prove it by doing so now. If you say that the points you've said haven't been countered well, prove it by picking apart the (good) counter-arguments to ultimately say why you're right. Don't just post the original argument and say, "Your response isn't good enough."

HA. HAHA. Avarice, I'm not falling for that. I've proven well enough (and on multiple occasions) that I can write clear, concise arguments; I don't have to prove jack to you. Sorry, chief.

Basically, your last statement was a huge hypocrisy, because you state that this has gone on long enough but continue to do it.

I haven't debated the merits of a MK ban since yesterday; the only thing I've debated today was that the SBR needs to stop hiding their arguments. Like I said, as far as I'm concerned, this fight is over; all that's left is for the TOs to circumvent the SBR and ban MK of their own volition.

 

[Inui]

I know a guy from new jersey personally training me is certainly why me, a guy in ohio, picked him up.

You picked him up to prove he's broken and to win money, but you ended up...not doing that well anyways, because you don't typically win much cash when the MI players/AZ show up, and you definitely can't do much anymore with M2K there. =/

Don't tell me you never played the guy to learn things. Don't tell me you've never seen vids to pick stuff up from him. That'd be blatant lying.

 

[MarKO X]

The thing is, this is a discussion.

Winning here isn't, "the side I support wins", winning here is, "everyone is convinced in the proper manner that the side that is in actuality correct is correct".


This is a PR move that at best convinces people of the right side for the wrong reasons, and at worst does that for the wrong side. In other words, playing to lose.

*what exactly is a PR move? like, I understand, but an exact definition would be great*

The past 4 ban MK polls all resulted in MK not getting banned. However, not everyone is convinced that anti-ban is correct. So who won that?

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

I think you misread me. I was explicitly saying that having ONLY backroom closed discussions is a BAD thing. They need to bring the discussion into the open air, so that everyone can be educated, which is what OS is doing. If we want to have a side-thread to discuss in, that's cool, but I think having the SBR be able to discuss in the open, spam-free, would be good; open the discussion to everyone, and there will be too much spam.

My bad man, I missed the "never" in your posts. Yeah, I agree.

One player can do it. It's doable. If it's doable, MK isn't bannable.

It's YOUR FAULT if you can't do what ADHD can do.

Untrue. No one can do what ADHD can except ADHD and Ally. What you don't understand is that just because a certain player chooses to use a character other than Meta Knight and is able to beat Meta Knight does not debunk the entire pro-ban argument singlehandedly.

Next they're going to be saying that because M2K has lost matches means that MK isn't the best character or some bull****.

vrael, we were just presented with this argument today

there will be on going discussion about in the BBR. it doesn't make sense to constantly update this thread with people making points and responses

think Anti vs. Pro last stand arguments. that's obviously the best way to present the information. that way you guys can get the gist of it and have your own discussion on it as well

Yeah, I understand. Another thread would be ideal. At least presenting some facts to at least acknowledge the anti-ban side would be nice.

 

[Overswarm]

You picked him up to prove he's broken and to win money, but you ended up...not doing that well anyways, because you don't typically win much cash when the MI players/AZ show up, and you definitely can't do much anymore with M2K there. =/

Don't tell me you never played the guy to learn things. Don't tell me you've never seen vids to pick stuff up from him. That'd be blatant lying.

Doubles Results (9 Entrants)
1: Mew2King + DJIskaScribbles (Mew2King + DJIskaScribbles) ($93.50)
2: Kel + Overswarm (Kel + Overswarm) ($51.00)
3: Nope + Z (Nope + Z) ($25.50)
4: Suyon + IThrowThings (Suyon + IThrowThings)
5: AlphaZealot + Fonz (AlphaZealot + Fonz)
5: Blue Rogue + Argent (Blue Rogue + Argent)
7: TheKeist + Doctor X (TheKeist + Doctor X)
7: XtacyFalco + Beegs (XtacyFalco + Beegs)
9: Links24 + Yami (Links24 + Yami)

Singles Results (30 Entrants)
1: Mew2King - Meta Knight ($139.20)
2: Blue Rogue - Wario ($63.80)
3: Kel - Meta Knight ($40.60)
4: Overswarm - Meta Knight($23.20)
5: KB - Peach($11.60)
5: Fizzle - Meta Knight/Lucario/Falco($11.60)
7: Z - Meta Knight
7: Suyon - Pit
9: AlphaZealot - Diddy Kong
9: Fonz - Lucario
9: DJIskascribbles - Meta Knight
9: Nope - Snake
13: Doctor X - Pit
13: Sil - R.O.B.
13: IThrowThings - Sonic
13: Sai - Diddy Kong


I do alright.

 

[adumbrodeus]

*what exactly is a PR move? like, I understand, but an exact definition would be great*

The past 4 ban MK polls all resulted in MK not getting banned. However, not everyone is convinced that anti-ban is correct. So who won that?

"An action intended to endear oneself, one's favored organization, or one's favored cause to the public at large".


And nobody's won, not yet. Anti-ban has merely managed to be ahead of pro-ban for the time being.

 

[Nihongo-ookami]

I thought this was over...

Meta-Knight is NOT unbeatable. Against Meta-Knights, you've just got to step it up a notch.

 

[Inui]

Yeah, you do all right, but the competition you face is very weak compared to many other regions, especially mine. Getting 4th at stuff here is a miracle. Why? The top 5 at Pound 4 are typically here plus Anti and Atomsk. Like...a typical event...can very easily have Anti, Ally, Atomsk, ADHD, Shadow, and ksizzle all in attendance. Get 4th at THAT.

MK wins you easy bread money due to where you live. Doing it here, TX, MD/VA...wouldn't be possible unless you truly trained, which you claim you do not. This place is too good vs MK and has too many MKs above your level, mine as well. =/

Meh, that's kind of off topic.

 

[-Mars-]

i will say that tourney's in CFL have dwindled down to the same 15ish people going to the same tourney. the only exception being that we host state tournies in CFL quite often but many choose to go to play and not enter. those who enter think they have a chance at beating a PR or placing top 8. mk would b a factor in that.

i also wanna say that we have <3(less than three) here in CFL who is probably the best sheik(if not the best hes top 3) in the country. ive played against light(who people say is the best sheik) and i can say they are both really close. at tournies hes beaten ranked marths. hes beaten pretty much everyone hes played against WHO ISNT MK. he loses 95% of his matches to MK's. not that he doesnt know the MU cuz i know hes trained hard with many different mk's, but that mu is so ridiculous for sheik that he loses everytime a mk comes around(good ones). its ridiculous to think that his sheik cant ever win cuz of MK, even though hes da best at his char(or second best XD). this holds true for other chars as well and banning mk would be extremely beneficial to them.

MK isn't even a hard matchup for Sheik and <3 himself has said he's just not good at the matchup and he doesn't have DACUS down yet lol.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Yeah ADHD and Ally show that it's possible to beat multiple MKs on the way to the top. Wow! Oh, wait, many big problems with this argument:

First, sample size. Unless there are 100 more Diddy players and 100 more MK players as good as ADHD and Mew2King respectively then their specific matchups mean jack. The same 2-4 players win nationals and regionals nearly every time; in both cases, the sample size is too small to draw a conclusion based solely on the habits and results of these "elite" players. Just because we're talking about competitive video gaming does not mean that statistics mean less than the whims of observers based on a 2-3 consecutive tournaments. In statistics, we call these isolated instances "outliers;" it is the burden of the opposing party (in this case, Diddy mains and anti-bans I suppose) to prove that these outliers are a trend when data is presented that suggests otherwise. Even when something is a trend, it isn't enough to prove anything. We have data from 150 tournaments in this thread alone. 2-3 regional/national tournaments is a drop in the ****ing bucket.

Oh, and "appealing to consequences" (lol swordgard) is what you're supposed to do in a debate. All I see from anti-ban is a bunch of stuff one wouldn't do in real debate, like for instance, "appealing to authority" ("you're all a bunch of scrubs, lol learn2mk," or "ADHD says he can do it"/"ADHD can do it, you can't" or "M2k can't beat ADHD") not to mention that most of these appeals are based on statistical anomolies and not hard evidence and numbers (even if these numbers suggest a certain level of popularity) such as the ones in the OP.

The problerm with the anti-ban argument is that it largely revels in logical fallacies and name-calling. "Scrubs, learn the fight!," "other games don't ban characters similar to MK," and "M2k loses sometimes" are not good enough arguments to thwart the statistical data presented by Overswarm in this thread and if you think they are you aren't very smart and don't belong in the BBR.

Get over yourselves and get off Sirlin's ****.

 

[¯\_S.(ツ).L.I.D._/¯]

Yeah, you do all right, but the competition you face is very weak compared to many other regions, especially mine. Getting 4th at stuff here is a miracle. Why? The top 5 at Pound 4 are typically here plus Anti and Atomsk. Like...a typical event...can very easily have Anti, Ally, Atomsk, ADHD, Shadow, and ksizzle all in attendance. Get 4th at THAT.

MK wins you easy bread money due to where you live. Doing it here, TX, MD/VA...wouldn't be possible unless you truly trained, which you claim you do not. This place is too good vs MK and has too many MKs above your level, mine as well. =/

Meh, that's kind of off topic.

...And this pertains to the discussion how? If you want to attack OS' tournament placings, VM him.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

sorry double post.

 

[etecoon]

are not good enough arguments to thwart the statistical data presented by Overswarm in this thread

all OS has proven is that MK is dominant. no one questioned that. whether or not he's TOO dominant is ENTIRELY a judgement call that will differ from person to person, there is no objective evidence that MK should be banned because the issue is completely subjective. one person might be ok with MK winning 100% of cash spots and another may find 50% unacceptably high.

both sides frequently commit logical fallacies, don't see how you're any better when you ignore anything wrong said by someone who agrees with you.

 

[theunabletable]

Untrue. No one can do what ADHD can except ADHD and Ally. What you don't understand is that just because a certain player chooses to use a character other than Meta Knight and is able to beat Meta Knight does not debunk the entire pro-ban argument singlehandedly.

Sucks for those players that aren't good enough.

It DOES debunk the pro-ban argument. It shows that MK is beatable. The only way that he'd ever be bannable would be if it gets to the point where you must play MK to win.

ADHD and Ally show that THAT IS ENTIRELY FALSE.

The problerm with the anti-ban argument is that it largely revels in logical fallacies and name-calling. "Scrubs, learn the fight!," "other games don't ban characters similar to MK," and "M2k loses sometimes" are not good enough arguments to thwart the statistical data presented by Overswarm in this thread and if you think they are you aren't very smart and don't belong in the BBR.

It isn't my, or MKs fault, that you're not as good as ADHD.

Get better or stop whining

 

[Nicole]

I love Overswarm.

 

[Cross.]

meh, i personally feel that anyone can become on the level of ally and adhd if they try hard enough. both were wifi players who werent pros at melee and now people are calling them top 3 in the world. Both of them learned to deal with mk. alot of people say that them doing it proves nothing because they are elite players and not everyone is an elite player but that argument is weak i think. what is really holding anyone back from becoming as good as them? only themselves. imo of course.

 

[MK26]

obvious solution:
1) play regular tourneys and low tier tourneys at the same time
2) make the low-tier cutoff somewhere between mk and snake
3) ???
4) profit

 

[•Col•]

ADHD camps and just waits for openings to present themselves, and the MK mains, being less technical than any Diddy main with items, fall into the traps and, not knowing their options, get *****.

It's NOT an even match-up, the instant MK mains practice item techs, Diddy will have a new counter- MK.

It's funny how the Diddy-BR has gotten to the point where they have made a pact to not tell anyone how to play the Diddy MU, or even go to the extent of telling crewmates INCORRECT things to do against Diddy.

Oh boy.

I'm sorry, but I laughed pretty hard at this...



IT'S ALL A CONSPIRACY

 

[adumbrodeus]

Oh, and "appealing to consequences" (lol swordgard) is what you're supposed to do in a debate. All I see from anti-ban is a bunch of stuff one wouldn't do in real debate,

Ummm... what

It's a fallacy.


Unless you wanna cite what he's saying that you're responding to (perhaps he's using it incorrectly) then you're wrong.

like for instance, "appealing to authority" ("you're all a bunch of scrubs, lol learn2mk," or "ADHD says he can do it"/"ADHD can do it, you can't" or "M2k can't beat ADHD") not to mention that most of these appeals are based on statistical anomolies and not hard evidence and numbers (even if these numbers suggest a certain level of popularity) such as the ones in the OP.

The problerm with the anti-ban argument is that it largely revels in logical fallacies and name-calling. "Scrubs, learn the fight!," "other games don't ban characters similar to MK," and "M2k loses sometimes" are not good enough arguments to thwart the statistical data presented by Overswarm in this thread and if you think they are you aren't very smart and don't belong in the BBR.

Get over yourselves and get off Sirlin's ****.

Debate the people who are intelligent.


As far as statistical data goes, multiple problems have been presented with that data, I mentioned a number in my last response to jack.


As far as lrn2play, that's a conclusion, if mk is not particularly bad, then getting better should allow you to fight him on a more even level.



As far as Sirlin, he's a legitimate authority on this, I'd be glad to debate you on the merits of PTW philosophy from a competative gaming standpoint any day of the week. We agree with him because he's generally right.

 

[Overswarm]

As far as Sirlin, he's a legitimate authority on this, I'd be glad to debate you on the merits of PTW philosophy from a competative gaming standpoint any day of the week. We agree with him because he's generally right.

What would you say if Sirlin himself said banning MK was a good decision?

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

It isn't my, or MKs fault, that you're not as good as ADHD.

Get better or stop whining

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

Wrong.

Yes, banning something because it is "cheap" or "gay" is ridiculous, but I think we're well beyond that now. A lot of his PTW philosophy flies in direct opposition to what we know about debate, numbers, and statistics. "Who cares if something is truly a problem? get better lololol"

What would you say if Sirlin himself said banning MK was a good decision?

I'd be interested in hearing an asnwer to this.

 

[swordgard]

Thanks to everyone, you showed me why BBR should be open to the public.


Because the public is effing ********. I'm done arguing over this not in the BBR, if anyone wants to talk to me, aim/msn me. I advise it to you supermodel. You might get to learn a thing or two.


Guess what supermodel from paris, the metagame doesn't care for anyone but those winning. Scrubs don't matter to the BBR.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Dead-on, 100% correct.

Brawl isn't that good and the Brawl players kill their own game's hype. Plain and simple.

I don't think Brawl is that bad of a game at all, but it did take defensive play too far.

 

[BSP]

One player can do it. It's doable. If it's doable, MK isn't bannable.

It's YOUR FAULT if you can't do what ADHD can do.

Everyone knows MK is beatable. What we're worried about is if he's overcentralizing, and it looks like it if I'm interpreting the data OS posted correctly.

But, the community will probably never agree on what's too much.

 

[_Keno_]

It DOES debunk the pro-ban argument. It shows that MK is beatable. The only way that he'd ever be bannable would be if it gets to the point where you must play MK to win.

ADHD and Ally show that THAT IS ENTIRELY FALSE. It isn't my, or MKs fault, that you're not as good as ADHD.

Of course Metaknight is beatable, any character in any game is beatable if a person is skillful enough. And the metagame is at the point where if you are not naturally better than EVERYONE ELSE, then you must play Metaknight to even stand a chance. The metagame is obviously focused on him, you just argue for the sake of keeping your main. ADHD and Ally are just very very good at brawl.

Edit, someone above me is a ninja.

 

[adumbrodeus]

What would you say if Sirlin himself said banning MK was a good decision?

Depends on his reasoning.


Again, we generally agree with him because he's generally right.


But honestly, I doubt he has the depth of field to come up with the right response to the debate, there's so much information that needs to be considered before a decision can be rendered.


I'd trust his explicit ban criteria (assuming no items, fox only, final destination of course, lol).

 

[Palpi]

Adumbrodeus. I thought the achievments of a character by only 1 individual is meaningless? The reflex discussion... Wouldn't that mean that ADHD and Ally arent beating m2k with their character, just with their skill because they are better than him? Wouldn't that mean that inui statement that "ally and adhd are showing us how to beat mk...advancement in metagame blah" (paraphrased...obviously) is illegitmate?

(waits for adumbrodeus to use big words thus proving my statement incorrect, though im just playing devils advocate)

 

[theunabletable]

What would you say if Sirlin himself said banning MK was a good decision?

He wouldn't because it doesn't fit his ban criteria.

Yes, banning something because it is "cheap" or "gay" is ridiculous, but I think we're well beyond that now. A lot of his PTW philosophy flies in direct opposition to what we know about debate, numbers, and statistics. "Who cares if something is truly a problem? get better lololol"

Except it ISN'T a problem because MK CAN be beaten.

Everyone knows MK is beatable. What we're worried about is if he's overcentralizing, and it looks like it if I'm interpreting the data OS posted correctly.

He's an easy to play and good character, of course he is going to be popular. And THAT'S ALL IT IS.

Him being very popular doesn't warrant a ban.

Of course Metaknight is beatable, any character in any game is beatable if a person is skillful enough. And the metagame is at the point where if you are not naturally better than EVERYONE ELSE, then you must play Metaknight to even stand a chance. The metagame is obviously focused on him, you just argue for the sake of keeping your main. ADHD and Ally are just very very good at brawl.

Sucks for you that you're not as good as them.

They can do it, thus he isn't broken.

 

[Matador]

Isn't the best/easiest character SUPPOSED to win the most? All this data did was illustrate that point.

 

[Palpi]

I agree matador, but it is a rediculous amount imo.

 

[Browny]

lol @ applying sirlins argument to brawl

its a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT type of fighting game, apples and oranges people

before anyone says brawl should be played exactly as it is on the disc with no changes, take a look at how every single item and like 75% of stages are currently banned in order to make competition possible. or does banning such a massive proportion of the game suddenly not count, because some people like it that way? how is that different to limiting MK?

 

[theunabletable]

Isn't the best/easiest character SUPPOSED to win the most? All this data did was illustrate that point.

This, this, this.

Ironically he doesn't even win as much as Melee Jiggs.

He's the best character, OF COURSE you're going to see him more than anyone else.

And you'd think if he was as dominant as you say, he'd WIN the tournaments, instead of merely filling the top 8.

its a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT type of fighting game, apples and oranges people

Sure it's a different kind of fighting game, but the criteria for banning characters should logically stay the same. I mean what is it about Brawl that makes MK bannable, when any other community would keep a character this "dominant" (and by dominant I mean he doesn't win the big tournaments, so he should obviously be banned) character in?

They're different fighting games, yeah, but why does his criteria not apply here?

 

[adumbrodeus]

Adumbrodeus. I thought the achievments of a character by only 1 individual is meaningless? The reflex discussion... Wouldn't that mean that ADHD and Ally arent beating m2k with their character, just with their skill because they are better than him? Wouldn't that mean that inui statement that "ally and adhd are showing us how to beat mk...advancement in metagame blah" (paraphrased...obviously) is illegitmate?

(waits for adumbrodeus to use big words thus proving my statement incorrect, though im just playing devils advocate)

Honestly, you're not wrong, not completely anyway.


The real issue is replication for that, we need other snakes and diddy's to beat MK's of about the same skill level reliably.

lol @ applying sirlins argument to brawl

its a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT type of fighting game, apples and oranges people

before anyone says brawl should be played exactly as it is on the disc with no changes, take a look at how every single item and like 75% of stages are currently banned in order to make competition possible. or does banning such a massive proportion of the game suddenly not count, because some people like it that way? how is that different to limiting MK?

Erm... Sirlin's criteria is for COMPETITIVE GAMING, period.

 

[Palpi]

Palpi Super Debater, Away!!!!!

 

[Cook]

What would you say if Sirlin himself said banning MK was a good decision?

DID Sirlin say that? I don't really care if he did because I don't suck his nuts. But it will be pretty hilarious to me if he did say MK should be banned considering that pro-ban people DO tend to suck his nuts.

Keep doing good things, OS.