Will there ever be major, non-canon mechanics added to Brawl+?

[BEES]

*RANT WARNING*

Currently the project has focused on making the game faster and more engaging than Brawl. It's brought back a lot of the core gameplay of smash bros that was needed.

However, I feel like we have the opportunity to be more ambitious with these hacks. We could make this a much deeper, much bigger fighting game, and I want to know if that is the eventual goal.

I think if you really want to get people playing Brawl+ who were playing Brawl before, you need to give them a compelling reason to switch. There needs to be something that very clearly distinguishes this game from Melee. So that if anyone ever says "why don't you just play Melee," you could say "because Melee doesn't have THIS in it". Extra characters are not a good enough reason. There needs to be something that clearly puts this game head-and-shoulders above Brawl, so you can say to someone "because Brawl doesn't have THIS in it." Extra speed is not a good enough reason.

There needs to be something that has never been in Smash Bros before, and it needs to be big. I think 2 advanced techs should be added. Something for offense, and something for defense. Both technically easy to perform, in keeping with the philosophy of the game so far, but challenging and rewarding to apply to the gameplay. Neither should be something you should use all the time. They should be things that have drawbacks. I can think of plenty possibilities, but I'm not going to list any of them, because quite frankly I'm nobody, and I think identifying any of those ideas as originating from me would detract from them. Suffice it to say though: anything along these lines would be a risk. Sure, it could upset the balance of the game that people have worked hard to craft. Such problems are the nature of ambitious projects, but it's worth it.

I think Brawl+ deserves to be the best god**** fighting game ever made, and I won't settle for low-balling it as an easy-mode version of Melee for Brawl players who are sick of Brawl.

 

[Zephron]

Brawl and Melee doesn't have textures and customizable movesets. ^__-

Also simply suggesting 2 AT's for everyone (Making it so every character has it correctly will be a nightmare) isn't going to make it stand out from Melee or Brawl unless they do something that frankly most of the community probably won't want to deal with.

Just looking at the workshop you see model editing going on, thousands of PSA's, and custom music and textures, and topics with pages upon pages of balancing discussion.

I think we're fine.

 

[KingSlimeKnight]

Got any ideas?(for an AT?)

 

[Dantarion]

The problem with this is that no one can think of new universal techs, and as far as I know, there are about 5 people in existence that continue to make actual codes for Brawl+, everything else is just PSA work.

 

[AMKalmar]

I agree with you and I'd really like to hear your ideas.

 

[SupItsMe]

I've been lurking around the Smashboards forums for quite a while now and this truly does seem like an invigorating topic to explore. I for one also feel like there isn't a big enough difference between Brawl and Brawl+. One of the catch slogans of Brawl+ from the start is that it wasn't Melee 2.0. I'm probably not one to talk due to my lack of experience with Brawl, but I just don't see how realistic this is in the near future unless you get quite a few followers. From my knowledge, people are working on hacking brawl to its extent and I think this might be possible with DAYS of coding (), but for now, I don't think it's practical. Melee was successful because it was an original fighting game that created its own mechanics so you NEEDED skill to win. Trying to expand the horizons of brawl+ to this extent would be creating an entire new game. I'll be following this thread, but know you have my support and hopefully others will say the same. Good Luck. :D

 

[IndigoFenix]

As a rule, when you make a project as popular as Brawl+, you have to figure out a way to please as many people as possible. As another rule, the more people you try to please at once, the more conservative you have to be when it comes to making major, revolutionary changes - in other words, you can't make them.

If I were to suggest a mechanic that would do great in Brawl+, I would say... RAGE COMBO!!! (Boosting attack damage with consecutive hits). Why? Because it gives players even more of a reward for pulling off combos (which is one of the hallmarks of Brawl+), and it IS new.

But I don't think it'll happen, because any major change to an established system is likely to have as many dissenters as it has supporters. It's just the way the world works.

 

[kupo15]

I think there is still some work left with bringing back old mechanics before the addition of newer stuff. New stuff could also hurt the project though.

Reason's why to play B+ over melee.

Footstooling
Gliding
Reverse grabbing (what a terrible mechanic except for rotating up b's)
RAR
Swimming
Tripping attacks
Better graphics

I wouldn't go for any of these but Brawlers might. I wish Havoks could be removed

 

[...:::VILE:::...]

New mechanic.

Aerial stacking: Withing 10 frames of the aerial, if you press another aerial, it halves the end lag and then does an aerial and doubles the ending lag.

 

[GHNeko]

Actually there have been like 1 or 2 ideas tossed around in WBR that come from traditional fighters. We're just kinda iffy on trying because they are a non-smash mechanics and it might not sit well with teh community.

 

[thanyou]

New mechanic.

Aerial stacking: Withing 10 frames of the aerial, if you press another aerial, it halves the end lag and then does an aerial and doubles the ending lag.

Pit and Marth users would love this.

 

[skstylez]

this would just lead to unnecessary codes like "oh, this would be cool!"

 

[RPGsFTW]

Reason's why to play B+ over melee.

Footstooling
Tripping attacks

I would never play a Smash game for the ability to footstool someone. I think footstooling is completely stupid, and it's almost always done as an accident. I'd like the **** things gone, but I don't expect that to happen because apparently, people footstool combo all the time, when in reality, they don't. =P

And tripping attacks are kind if eh to me. I don't really care whether or not they are there. However, tripping by running and what not is bull****, and I'm glad that it's gone.

I would also like some new techniques added to Brawl+, but nothing I could think of is really anything besides a character specific AT. =P

 

[GHNeko]

I would never play a Smash game for the ability to footstool someone. I think footstooling is completely stupid, and it's almost always done as an accident. I'd like the **** things gone, but I don't expect that to happen because apparently, people footstool combo all the time, when in reality, they don't. =P

Kirby/Marth/D3 users say hi.

 

[Eldiran]

Brawl and Melee doesn't have textures and customizable movesets. ^__-

Actually, they do. Except that Melee doesn't have customizable movesets.

 

[BEES]

Very well, I will divulge one possibility. As :V pointed out, arcade fighters are a common inspiration for advanced techs, and this definitely draws from some of them.

Let's call it the Smash Cancel, just to be creative. I think a type of cancel could be added to smash attacks without breaking the game. For instance, pressing shield during the animation of a smash. It immediately cancels all of the remaining frames of the smash. As a result, you could incorporate that smash attack into the middle of a combo, and follow up with more attacks afterward.

Your character glows for a second to let your opponent know you've performed the tech.

However, the attack comes at a price: since there's no stamina bar in Smash Bros, I think the most appropriate way to balance this broken tech is to cause it to add 75% of the damage of that attack to the person using it. So if it causes 20% damage, they gain 15% damage. This prevents spam. You must use it wisely, maybe once or twice per stock, since it costs a significant amount of health.

This has 3 main uses:
-You can lengthen combos with it. This would certainly create some more interesting combos since there are very few that incorporate smash attacks, except as finishers.

-You can also use this technique to save yourself if you perform a smash and miss, leaving you wide open.

-Certain characters could actually use this to boost their damage to prevent combos. For instance, fast-fallers might find it very useful against Jigglypuff, since it allows them to skip to percents where they're harder to land a rest combo against.

Advantages:
-No character has a smash that is too broken for this. Since the damage that character receives is proportional to the strength of the attack, it is roughly balanced among the cast. Usmash spamming with Fox over and over again would not be a good idea. You'd lose a lot more health than your opponent.

-This balances the somewhat air-heavy game with some ground tactics. Smashes seem to be tactically bad moves right now since you can't incorporate them into combos without them ending the combo. If you had to choose between smashing, or using a tilt or an aerial, you have little incentive to go for the smash.

Disadvantages:
-this would require more careful balancing of the smashes. Smashes with very few initiation frames and very disjointed hitboxes might need nerfing.
-this could double the average length of combos at high levels of play, so a defensive tactic needs to be added to compensate

I think the best 2d arcade fighter analogy for this technique would be roman canceling in Guilty Gear, which is actually more broken than this.

 

[GHNeko]

....or...

you could have moves with IASA that only works if you hit.

lololololololololo

 

[BEES]

The difference between that and this is that the former is automatic. It adds no choice to the game. It merely buffs offense without adding any decision-making depth to anything. You just use the moves with the IASA frames and there you go.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Kirby/Marth/D3 users say hi.

JIgglypuff user says "Don't forget me"

 

[GHNeko]

The difference between that and this is that the former is automatic. It adds no choice to the game. It merely buffs offense without adding any decision-making depth to anything. You just use the moves with the IASA frames and there you go.

dont you mean the latter?

and IASA only on hit would be a lot easier to achieve than Smash canceling and work more like traditional games.

 

[BEES]

You press a button. There isn't specific timing on the button either. You can press it whenever during the smash. That's a lot of frames. I don't think anyone would have problems with the technique. As for the implementation, I don't think the difficulty is substantial enough to matter.

I don't have a problem with conditional IASA frames. I think that's a perfectly legitimate idea that could improve some attacks, and it needs to happen. Have you considered the possibility of including both of these?

 

[BEES]

I think there is still some work left with bringing back old mechanics before the addition of newer stuff. New stuff could also hurt the project though.

Reason's why to play B+ over melee.

Footstooling
Gliding
Reverse grabbing (what a terrible mechanic except for rotating up b's)
RAR
Swimming
Tripping attacks
Better graphics

I wouldn't go for any of these but Brawlers might. I wish Havoks could be removed

Wait a minute, why would brawlers go for any of those when all of those are IN Brawl? So far the only things that aren't in brawl are dash canceling and dash dancing (well, not as usefully anyway). No Melee player ever... EVER would pick up this game for those. That much is certain.

 

[GHNeko]

You press a button. There isn't specific timing on the button either. You can press it whenever during the smash. That's a lot of frames. I don't think anyone would have problems with the technique. As for the implementation, I don't think the difficulty is substantial enough to matter.

I meant the coding work behind Smash Canceling.

And it seems to follow the same law of IASA on hit. <_<

Also, I'd like to take a minute to bring back techjumping off the ground. BUT BALANCED.

 

[BEES]

Techjumping was literally going to be my next post.

 

[GHNeko]

We could always bring back phantom hits too. And allow players to combo off them. :O

Even those that's Smash related, but still.

 

[MK26]

I meant the coding work behind Smash Canceling.

And it seems to follow the same law of IASA on hit. <_<

Also, I'd like to take a minute to bring back techjumping off the ground. BUT BALANCED.

induringafter techjumping

we can make it possible to a greater degree than before with animation editing, even just by rotating the walltechjump animation 90 degrees at the beginning...wed probably have to nerf techrolls and such in exchange for the extra option

and i think giving spcific ground moves iasa on hit (either only to other ground moves or all actions) would be cool to strengthen the ground combo and shieldpressure game...like ftilts. ftilts in general could use a buff imo, and this would be perfect. someone like sonic with a ground-comboing dtilt would get his iasa there, ike with his killing utilt would have it there (but i think its obvious that we should stay away from giving combo utilts iasa on hit), while other characters will get buffs to jab mixups or stuff. maybe even give a few characters iasa on smashes (im thinking boozer fsmash >:D) to give them a viable shield pressure tool? the possibilities are endless

 

[Christian_CAO]

Probably a dumb idea, but I like to say stuff so... how about a defensive move that can push back opponents who have you stuck in a string of combos? I calls it Smash Pulse. You basically press the L & R buttons together while your being harassed by your opponent. It shoves them away from you(set knock back) allowing you about barely a second to do whatever. It can't be used continuously, so I think a cool down period equal to the amount of time Sonic's final smash lasts would be good. It's basically a GTFO move... why does it sound familiar?

 

[Rudementry]

Brawl and Melee doesn't have textures and customizable movesets.

Wrong entirely. Tons of brawl users use textures and music n stuff. Why do people assume only brawl+ users use them? Brawl hacking came before brawl+, so that means, brawl hacking isn't based on brawl+. And customizable movesets, uh, has a single new move been introduced to brawl+ yet? Not officially or tourney legal.

Edit: Oops I didn't see Eldiran's post.

 

[zephyrnereus]

the smash pulse reminded me of the bomb card in touhou's scarlet weather rapsody...

how about being able to access your FS when you reach a certain amount of damage/stock? (we could power some of them down a bit to be more fair...)

 

[colored blind]

how about being able to access your FS when you reach a certain amount of damage/stock? (we could power some of them down a bit to be more fair...)

Ultra Specials lol.

I like the Smash Cancelling idea a lot. If every Smash were IASA by shield only through all frames on a condition that when IASA'd, you take 75% of the damage (and of course taking off the damage for a normal IASA Smash, like Ganon's USmash). At the very least, if someone gets a working build of Smash Canceling, we should try it out and just toss the idea out if turns out to be too unbalanced/unworkable.

 

[twiblets]

I like the smash cancelling idea but im not sure if adding damage to the user is the best way to compensate it. I definately want combos buffed tho.

 

[Christian_CAO]

forgive my double post...

the smash pulse reminded me of the bomb card in touhou's scarlet weather rapsody...

how about being able to access your FS when you reach a certain amount of damage/stock? (we could power some of them down a bit to be more fair...)

Good idea, I had an idea similar to that. Your down taunt can initiate an in game transformation that's different for every character, I call it Smash Awakening. Think of it as a mini final smash. The transformations aren't invincible and can't one hit KO anyone but are buffed versions of them selves, for a short time of course ( about a little more than half of the length of Sonic's final smash). You can only use it once though, so deciding when and how to use it is extremely important. Do you use it to gain an early advantage, in a pinch, as an easy finisher when dominating, or do you use it to counter your opponents Soul Smash. The epic transformation battles... I could just imagine it, Super Sonic versus Warioman; or Giga Bowser Versus Beast Ganon. Characters without real transformations would probably go into a hypermode of some sort.

 

[Rudra]

I like the Smash Cancel idea, though I do wonder how else can defense be compensated for it. Smash Pulse sounds good (maybe it can be a windbox that surrounds its user?), but in return, I think it should make you helpless (or at least lose your second/all jumps).

Spoiler

Also, how about that reflective Power Shielding?

Good idea, I had an idea similar to that. Your down taunt can initiate an in game transformation that's different for every character, I call it Smash Awakening...

Team Landmaster? Sounds like fun to me.

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

Good idea, I had an idea similar to that. Your down taunt can initiate an in game transformation that's different for every character, I call it Smash Awakening. Think of it as a mini final smash. The transformations aren't invincible and can't one hit KO anyone but are buffed versions of them selves, for a short time of course ( about a little more than half of the length of Sonic's final smash). You can only use it once though, so deciding when and how to use it is extremely important. Do you use it to gain an early advantage, in a pinch, as an easy finisher when dominating, or do you use it to counter your opponents Soul Smash. The epic transformation battles... I could just imagine it, Super Sonic versus Warioman; or Giga Bowser Versus Beast Ganon. Characters without real transformations would probably go into a hypermode of some sort.

This sounds unbalanced and impossible. But everyone having a little hyper mode may work. Pretty much, people get Final Smash glowy, and they get their weak points buffed and their strong points buffER-ed. For example, Kirby can get infinite jumps (weeell, more like 15 or so), DK should have stronger-hitting moves and steam blowing at all times, Samus can always have her super missles (and a space jump!), Sonic and Mario may hurt you just by collision (Sonic's jumps and Mario's boots), Lucario gets full aura without having to have lots of damage, and Game and Watch gets heavier with no penalty to his jumps and floatiness! And ya fight like crazy for a few seconds until it wears off. If you're falling behind, it triggers automatically. If you've got an edge, you can trigger it to gain the lead (with some sort of cooldown penalty of course.) It should be a once per match thing I guess.

SMASH SENSE. You know you wanna fight, YOU KNOW YOU WANNA. The voices in your head say so.

 

[JCaesar]

And customizable movesets, uh, has a single new move been introduced to brawl+ yet? Not officially or tourney legal.

Lucas zair.

 

[exfatal]

i really like the smash cancel idea also the smash pluses sounds like soemthing from blazblue.. if u add that in it should have the same effect liek blazblue u take more damage for awhile, maybe for like 30 secs? and by more damage i mean more impact and % by dunno 30%?

 

[zephyrnereus]

Good idea, I had an idea similar to that. Your down taunt can initiate an in game transformation that's different for every character, I call it Smash Awakening. Think of it as a mini final smash. The transformations aren't invincible and can't one hit KO anyone but are buffed versions of them selves, for a short time of course ( about a little more than half of the length of Sonic's final smash). You can only use it once though, so deciding when and how to use it is extremely important. Do you use it to gain an early advantage, in a pinch, as an easy finisher when dominating, or do you use it to counter your opponents Soul Smash. The epic transformation battles... I could just imagine it, Super Sonic versus Warioman; or Giga Bowser Versus Beast Ganon. Characters without real transformations would probably go into a hypermode of some sort.

sounds interesting, though some transformations wouldnt work since beast ganon counts more of an attack than a TF (I think the only ones with TFs are Wario, Bowser, and possibly Sonic and ROB)...
this will sound crazy, but how about some sort of matrix mode? where the player who activated it (with a taunt or A+B or something like that) makes everyone slow (like the stopwatch), gets IASA frames halved on all attacks (for some MvsC-esque combos), and certain moves are buffed for finishers (they would be unique to each character, like Falcon gets the knee, Fox gets the Uair, Flaco the Dair, Etc.). it would last for 5 seconds or less and could only be used once/twice per match.

 

[Dantarion]

This thread makes me cry. Except Smash Canceling, since thats doable without hours of work on each character just to see if its worth it.

 

[shanus]

Building complex ATs takes a very long time to implement. Just wait and see ;-)

 

[Slashy]

I came up with Smash Charge Canceling a while back, MuBa came up with air dashes as an alternative to double jumping.

I do like your idea, except with regards to Lucario's balance.