Will there ever be major, non-canon mechanics added to Brawl+?

[twiblets]

wouldn't it be even more awesome if you earned your smash transformation w/ a long combo or something?
could you elaborate on mubas air dash idea?
another idea: what if there was some way of doing a smash attack in the air? probs impossible but just throwing it out there.
another idea: special throw; ie grab and press B. again probs impossible but still...
another idea: maybe we can make new stage stuff? like ive thought how cool it would be if there was a stage with a 'bouncy' wall that you could bounce your opponent off for combos

 

[Slashy]

Instead of a vertical boost in the air, you get a horizontal boost in the air.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

I don't see why the game should be designed so as to please a bunch of naysayers who don't have any interest in Brawl+ whatsoever. "Go play Melee/Brawl" isn't valid criticism, it's merely a stock argument (if you can even call it that) used by people whose problem with B+ is only the fact that Nintendo didn't make it. That would be like arguing with someone who doesn't see the differences between the various versions of Street Fighter: if they're not obvious to them, explaining them is probably not worth your time.

I'd still be interested in adding ATs though, more to solve issues that may arise from the way B+ is being balanced, than just for the sake of being different. And preferably stuff that works for every character.

 

[Sterowent]

i'm all for new mechanics in b+, but Only if they preserve the way smash is. you know, that free form feeling.

Smash isn't meant to be complicated visually at all. sure, you've got an interesting and deep combo game in melee and 64, but everything relevant to the match is in your percent, your stage, and the characters (and the items, if you've got em on). the only exception is FSes, and they're blatantly obvious. a giant, glowing orb is floating around. you hit it. it shatters on you. you glow now. Special Transformation Sequence.

smash doesn't have special bars. smash shouldn't have 'special circumstance transformation' techniques.
smash should always be subtle in the gameplay and obvious on the screen.

Edit: on another note, we really ought to be refining techniques the game shipped with too. Like foot-stools. And, yeah, i've approached this subject before (the Official B+ sticky), but, frankly, my ideas blow (except for widening the range of footstools on grounded opponents...c'mon, shouldn't that be mandatory?). it's a technique staring everyone in the face, but no one seems to be working towards making it more viable!

why not, guys?

 

[leafgreen386]

I'm going to quote this post and reply to it because it seems to condense a bunch of problems everyone is perpetuating right into one post for me.

wouldn't it be even more awesome if you earned your smash transformation w/ a long combo or something?

Lovely idea, except for the part where it makes multihit moves broken since they're the only way you're going to actually get a long combo. The game considers something a combo only if the foe is kept in hitstun for the entire duration of the combo. Strings don't count. If you were to somehow create a system to allow for strings to count, then you could just camp projectiles or hit and run for a stock to get the bonus. Creating a new system that rewards players for combos fairly is impossible. Your reward for comboing your opponent... is comboing your opponent. That's just how it's going to have to be... which is fine. The damage you deal and the positional advantage you gain at the end of the combo is reward enough.

another idea: what if there was some way of doing a smash attack in the air? probs impossible but just throwing it out there.

That would probably look rather... glitchy, and would require so much rebalancing. I was planning on creating a PSA character that can use grounded moves in midair, but the character would be specifically designed so as to prevent it from being broken. As a universal tech, you're talking about greatly shaking up the balance of the game for every character.

another idea: special throw; ie grab and press B. again probs impossible but still...

It's probably possible, but... why? Characters already have four throws at their disposal (and some have more... aka the characters that actually already have special grabs built in as part of their special moves), and usually only one or two are actually useful. This would not only be a pain to implement, but it would be pointless when characters already have very polarized throw options as it is. If we wanna increase the diversity in their throw games, we should just buff the throws they already have.

another idea: maybe we can make new stage stuff? like ive thought how cool it would be if there was a stage with a 'bouncy' wall that you could bounce your opponent off for combos

There already is.

Spoiler

In smash 64.

And walls were broken in that game because there was no wallteching. We don't need to bring that back.

A bunch of ideas that would either require way too much rebalancing to be worthwhile, ideas that would actually hurt the game more than help it, ideas that don't really do anything and just require extra work on the part of the coders, and ideas that aren't possible to begin with.

No.

 

[CT Chia]

what if we create z-air attacks for all characters that dont have a z-air. if theyr made correctly, introducing new moves (think the change from 64 to melee) would be pretty neat. they wouldnt be grapple based like the current ones, but just a new aerial.

 

[leafgreen386]

what if we create z-air attacks for all characters that dont have a z-air. if theyr made correctly, introducing new moves (think the change from 64 to melee) would be pretty neat. they wouldnt be grapple based like the current ones, but just a new aerial.

...and where are you getting these new aerials from? Magic? Do you have a wizard we don't know about that is helping you with this? We can't create animations for characters yet, meaning the most we could do is steal animations from other characters and slap them on new ones, and when you get down to it, all you're doing is adding new moves for the sake of adding new moves. It's not even a technique that you're talking about... it's a move.

A note to everyone in this thread: A technique needs to be applicable to gameplay without overly interfering with established playstyles. It should add depth to the game without centralizing play. It should be subtle, not obstructive.

 

[Sterowent]

A note to everyone in this thread: A technique needs to be applicable to gameplay without overly interfering with established playstyles. It should add depth to the game without centralizing play. It should be subtle, not obstructive.

Edit: on another note, we really ought to be refining techniques the game shipped with too. Like foot-stools. And, yeah, i've approached this subject before (the Official B+ sticky), but, frankly, my ideas blow (except for widening the range of footstools on grounded opponents...c'mon, shouldn't that be mandatory?). it's a technique staring everyone in the face, but no one seems to be working towards making it more viable!

why not, guys?

get at me.

 

[BEES]

folks keep it simple

stuff that works across the board with only minor balances needed is the way to go

 

[Eldiran]

Considering I'm not a B+ player, you should take this idea with a grain of salt, but I feel that having perfect (1-frame) perfect shielding reflect projectiles would be conducive to Brawl+'s goals. Such as discouraging defensive (projectile-based) play, and higher tech skills required. I'm certain none of the Melee fans would complain -- though it wouldn't do much to alleviate the "Melee 2.0" claims.

I'm not certain if that idea is implementable or has already been extensively considered (I wouldn't be surprised if it had). If it's do-able at all, it would be done by editing Fighter.pac.

Naturally such a change would be essentially a buff to non-projectile users, so that would have to be accounted for.

 

[monkeyx4]

Im liking the smash canceling idea. but r these AT referring to all charcters or specific charcters (plz dont flame me >_<)

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

This thread makes me cry. Except Smash Canceling, since thats doable without hours of work on each character just to see if its worth it.

A note to everyone in this thread: A technique needs to be applicable to gameplay without overly interfering with established playstyles. It should add depth to the game without centralizing play. It should be subtle, not obstructive.

NO! I WANT MY MAIN TO HAVE SUPER AWESOME TRANSFORMATIONS IN THE NEXT BUILD! GAME AND WATCH NEEDS TO TURN INTO AN OCTOPUS...WITH A MOVESET! FOR THIRTY-TWO SECONDS! AND NEW ACTIONS!

On the other hand, I really like Stereowent's idea. Also, what if every character-get this- had one frame of deflective defensive collision on them once their shield once it shrinks to a certain percent? Everyone needs a defense for that one projectile that's about to break their shield if they have good enough timing.

Spoiler

But srsly, I figured this thread since page two was about talking about how cool smash cancelling was, and how characters need to go HAIPA

EDIT: Darn you Eldiran, I was typing my post for about a half hour (kept getting distracted) and you go steal my awesome idea!

 

[MK26]

ideas so far:

rage combo
aerial stacking
some kind of smash cancel
techjumping
smash pulse
power-up/transformation mode
matrix mode
perfect shielding
air dashing
special grabs
performing ground moves in the air
footstool buffs
shanus' hints >:(

a lot of these sound like wishful thinking to me...regardless, from a coding standpoint, which of these are plausible?

 

[Untouch]

Someone should find out how to change the GUI in battles.

 

[[TSON]]

...and where are you getting these new aerials from? Magic? Do you have a wizard we don't know about that is helping you with this? We can't create animations for characters yet, meaning the most we could do is steal animations from other characters and slap them on new ones, and when you get down to it, all you're doing is adding new moves for the sake of adding new moves. It's not even a technique that you're talking about... it's a move.

We CAN make animations, and I'm sure you could find someone to do one for everyone. It's just tedious and time consuming ;V

And I agree 100% with perfect shielding reflecting projectiles back to the sender.

 

[.Fade]

Is techjumping the same as super jumping? 'Cuz that'd be pretty subtle if anything. [Hold down Down, then snap joystick up for extra height].

 

[Rudra]

Considering I'm not a B+ player, you should take this idea with a grain of salt, but I feel that having perfect (1-frame) perfect shielding reflect projectiles would be conducive to Brawl+'s goals. Such as discouraging defensive (projectile-based) play, and higher tech skills required. I'm certain none of the Melee fans would complain -- though it wouldn't do much to alleviate the "Melee 2.0" claims.

I'm not certain if that idea is implementable or has already been extensively considered (I wouldn't be surprised if it had). If it's do-able at all, it would be done by editing Fighter.pac.

Naturally such a change would be essentially a buff to non-projectile users, so that would have to be accounted for.

Spoiler

Also, how about that reflective Power Shielding?

10PSReflects

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

10PSReflects

And what am I, chopped liver? BAWWWWW

 

[B3Brawler]

Tech jumping would be epic. Especially for like a marth player, Uair out of the tech and then counter combo. That would be **** sexy. But maybe make it like the wall jump animation or something so you have less control and it's easier to read.

As for Smash Canceling, It would be kinda cool but i think the damage should be nerfed or something instead of take damage yourself. And the glowing seems kinda excessive

Edit: Also that guys super jump idea sounds sexy for following up air combos. maybe have extra endlag when landing or something though. Annd able to do it instantly not hold down

 

[TL?]

Idea:

Make invincibility frames lessen for each consecutive ledge grab. Invincibility frames go back to full when you get hit or stand on ground. This would kill ledge camping.

 

[GenoGar]

I know something Brawl has that Melee doesn't... in Brawl, we can C-Stick a running upsmash! Take that Melee.

-

Tech jumping would make meteor to tech chase useless since they'll just pop back up and knock you out of any end lag you had. Is it "balanced" to make using meteors in the air (above a platform) risky? Otherwise, it'll stop platforms from raeping characters so hard.

I support B-tilts... in the future.

Crouch to jump = Super High Jump? Are we taking Mario Bros. 2 mechanics?

Aerial clanking??? That was introduced in another topic... It'll give characters an edge against the swordies except MK. I'm not too sure how it would play out.

Air dashing? Like instead of double jumping... you get a strong forward momentum instead. The multiple jump characters could work like the Screw Attack mechanic of only 2nd midair jump... But meh, this'll make horrible recoveries decent and decent recoveries godly. I'm not too sure on this one. (Imagine Falcons air dashing on stage.......)

-

But ehh... I thought Smash was praised for having simple game mechanics with a deeper gameplay aspect. For a simple game, introducing "AT"s would just make the game.... tacky. I think most people are content with what we have now.

Who even says "Go play Melee" anymore anyway? Do we really need to introduce something just to retort this statement?

 

[GHNeko]

Too bad ledge camping isnt a problem in B+

 

[Rikana]

I instantly thought of techjumping when I finished reading the OP's post. Don't know if it has been mentioned; didn't bother to read through 5 pages.

I remember messing around with it.. and watching ghneko failing at it through livestream lol. Its awesome but so broken if we just implement it raw. It definitely needs to be adjusted and made character specific (not as in only certain characters have it but character specific as in everyone has a different size hop out of techjump).

Another idea I have is have the ability to roll off the ledge/platforms. Let's call it Ledge roll for now. It will definitely really change up how the game's going to be like.

Platform drops (only available in Cape's set and ssb64). You shield and press down to drop through platforms without sidestepping. We can make it specific; instead of pressing shield + down since everyone basically uses that for sidestepping.. we can use shield + cstick-down.

Ledge cancels.. do I need to say more? Its not new but it adds something to show "hey look, I'm technical" and can also add to mindgames.. look at Silent Spectre from melee. dAir to ledge cancel to instant uAir. Its hard to react to that unless he does it a million times but even if it is a million times.. he can always do it at another ledge which mixes it up. Oh yeah, it also helps with recovery for those predictable/heavy landing lag attacks.

So 4 ideas that I thought of from the top of my head:

Techjump
Ledge Roll
Platform Drop (there's a term for this but I forgot what it was called.. Ink drop? I don't remember)
Ledge Canceling

 

[GenoGar]

Smash canceling just sounds.... unnecessary... I mean... really?

Smash attacks are meaty attacks that have that sort of ending lag for a reason. You should be committed to a smash when you use it. You don't spam smashes knowing if you're in a position to be punished... you'd have a safe way of getting out of it. Some characters can live without a single smash attack... so they can live without this. Heck, what this does is make some of the better and safe smashes even more better and safe.

 

[Rikana]

Smash canceling just sounds.... unnecessary... I mean... really?

Smash attacks are meaty attacks that have that sort of ending lag for a reason. You should be committed to a smash when you use it. You don't spam smashes knowing if you're in a position to be punished... you'd have a safe way of getting out of it. Some characters can live without a single smash attack... so they can live without this either. Heck, what this does is make some of the better and safe smashes even more better and safe.

To expand on that, that's why you space your smashes as well. Although not all smashes are safe on shield.. but there are quite a few that, when spaced well, will not get punished.

Edit:

Building complex ATs takes a very long time to implement. Just wait and see ;-)

Oh.. wait what? Oh ****. CLIFFHANGERRR.

 

[kupo15]

I was going to say Platform dropping but it was already mentioned.

Techjumping is stupid and broken

 

[GHNeko]

how is tech jumping broken if it doesnt even exist.


here this **** goes...AGAIN.

Something made from scratch can only be broken if its made broken. if it was made to be balanced. It becomes balanced.

 

[JCaesar]

Idea:

Make invincibility frames lessen for each consecutive ledge grab. Invincibility frames go back to full when you get hit or stand on ground. This would kill ledge camping.

I really like this idea.

Too bad ledge camping isnt a problem in B+

Go to a tourney ya scrub.

 

[GHNeko]

I do go to tourneys, you ijit.

 

[[TSON]]

I really like this idea.

This.

It's so simple but so <3.

 

[kupo15]

how is tech jumping broken if it doesnt even exist.


here this **** goes...AGAIN.

Something made from scratch can only be broken if its made broken. if it was made to be balanced. It becomes balanced.

Perhaps, but the way its described, its broken because it will be the best option all the time

 

[Rikana]

Perhaps, but the way its described, its broken because it will be the best option all the time

OF ALL TIME.




...

It was hard to resist.

But seriously.. that's why you make it balanced. Maybe make certain frames where you can't do anything out of a tech jump. So this way the opponent still has advantage over the techjumpee. Anything can be done to this technique to make it balanced.

Edit:

Techjump: I remember messing around with it.. and watching ghneko failing at it through livestream lol. Its awesome but so broken if we just implement it raw. It definitely needs to be adjusted and made character specific (not as in only certain characters have it but character specific as in everyone has a different size hop out of techjump).

Ledge Roll: Another idea I have is have the ability to roll off the ledge/platforms. Let's call it Ledge roll for now. It will definitely really change up how the game's going to be like.

Platform drops (only available in Cape's set and ssb64): You shield and press down to drop through platforms without sidestepping. We can make it specific; instead of pressing shield + down since everyone basically uses that for sidestepping.. we can use shield + cstick-down.

Ledge cancels: do I need to say more? Its not new but it adds something to show "hey look, I'm technical" and can also add to mindgames.. look at Silent Spectre from melee. dAir to ledge cancel to instant uAir. Its hard to react to that unless he does it a million times but even if it is a million times.. he can always do it at another ledge which mixes it up. Oh yeah, it also helps with recovery for those predictable/heavy landing lag attacks.

So 4 ideas that I thought of from the top of my head:

Techjump
Ledge Roll
Platform Drop (there's a term for this but I forgot what it was called.. Ink drop? I don't remember)
Ledge Canceling

I like this guy's ideas. Discuss? (about the ones that haven't been discussed obviously)

 

[Machiavelli.CF]

its only broken if you make it broken, im sure theres a way to make a balanced version of it


and i was just thinking of counters for things, trip countering? the very frame you touch the ground as you trip or somthing, you do some...tripping attack or dash attack...idk it'd have to be frame perfect


or...uh.... jump charging
maybe ducking for a while before you jump can let you jump slightly higher..


or somthing kinda derived from "sonic battle"
sheild burst
you press both sheild buttons and your sheild bursts out for a bit: 1/6th a second or less
and if the enemy hits it, you get to attack them if you are quick, but if your sheild fails to block it
you're left open for the remainder of hte second to get hit.
it would vary with characters, the times..


or to go completely obserddd with idearz:
bracing: kinda like, if you press the shield button during the first frame of hitlag, it could, well, do anything you want...depends on the designer's tastes
add to hitlag to give you more time to DI correctly, tack 1% off the damage off the enemies attack, either damage wise, or proportionally.


if swimming stays in, maybe you can rapidly press A or somthing to move faster? swimming upward, or B to slow your movement back to the surface, or maybe moving side to side faster by mashing A


or possibly when you jump up through a platform, press down taunt or somthing and it will stop you on top of a platform, kinda like in Melee, jumping as falco up past a shot platform, but ADing downward right when you're over it so you land on it ASAP


i know these ideas wont get in, but maybe it'll help someone to think of another better idea :\

 

[DiamondbodySharpshooter]

@ Rikana: Ledge Rolling sounds interesting, especially since each character has two rolls. This way, one can be the ledge roll, and the other can just stick to edges still.

 

[Kinetik07]

I like the perfect shield reflect idea. Used to reflect a lot of falco's lasers as kirby by ducking and shielding. As the laser passed over kirby, pressing shield would cause him to stand up and perfect shield it every time. Although perfect shielding projectiles seems to be a lot easier in Brawl(especially lucario and samus') so it might be a huge disadvantage to projectile users.

Perfect shielding anything else seems to be a problem to anyone who's not a computer, though, because no one expects it when it happens(I mean, it's hard to expect it when you're constantly trying your best not to get hit). And the usual reaction is to grab, stepdodge or roll, which wastes a perfect opportunity to counter attack with a proper tilt or smash. So I was thinking of giving everyone a counter attack animation through perfect shielding.

E.g. you press shield and up as soon as you're about to be hit, and if it's a perfect shield, you go into your character's up tilt animation. The up tilt does the damage of their up tilt but does low knockback(pops them up a little with hitstun) no matter what the percent, and the animation is interruptable. This of course means being able to reverse a combo on someone. There would also be exceptions such as ganondorf and ike whose up tilts would not quick enough to be a counter, in which case the animation would have to be changed to, say, ganondorf's up smash or sped up to be able to hit in time.

Using the guidelines of feasibility though hacking and being balanced I also came up with these ideas:
Momentum store - Teching allows you to store up the momentum before you hit the floor/wall and redirect it at a later time when it's more convenient for you. Such as an extra way to recover or a killing move if you want to be risky by using your body as a rocket and smashing it into your opponent when they're near the boundaries.
Shield focus - Holding both left and right shoulder buttons shrinks the size of the shield to it's smallest size without breaking. You can't stepdodge or roll, but you can move the small shield anywhere around your body and it will never break. Shield poking would be easier. FYI, there's an animation in Brawl if you tilt the analog stick slowly while shielding, your character will shift his/her shield in a direction, although I feel that this technique is impractical in regular battles.

Feel free to criticize my ideas now, I know they're full of holes.

 

[[TSON]]

You should have to mash the shield buttons to stay up in water.

=3

 

[Rikana]

Reflecting property, in my opinion, isn't needed for power shielding. I'd take it into consideration if the power shield frames were lowered and as hard as Melee because power shielding in Brawl+ is still quite easy. At least it isn't as easy as it was in Brawl.

I like the momentum teching idea but I also believe it isn't needed. People take the time to learn the space covered for each character's tech but it messes them up when momentum carries over into the tech. It would make tech chasing less efficient.

 

[MK26]

my vision of smash canceling is one where each character gets one ground move (not necessarily a smash) buffed to have iasa on hit (damage or shield) that doesnt apply to jumping. This will buff the ground combo and sheild pressure game, is not impossible to code, and is definitely unique. I also like the reinstatement of sheild platform dropping, especially with the cstick (sorry wiichuck guys, i guess u'd be a bit sol)

 

[Kinetik07]

Dash dancing increases running speed a little?

Be able to DACFS and DACDS instead of just DACUS/hyphen smash?

Allow slow jump as a get up option?

Do a quick ledge attack if attack button is pressed at the same instant that the ledge is grabbed?

Maybe just get rid of shield deterioration, although still allow shield breaks?

Cancel moves when they run off stage instead of stopping for an invisible wall? i.e. dacus off stage into an up air combo, dash attack off stage into a fair combo.

 

[BEES]

I'd rather apply a general conditional buff to all smash attacks. Any of them could be turned into a lagless move for the price of 75% of their damage. It leads to more variety and more mindgames when it could be any of the smashes.

Since this is not a character-specific code it is probably easier to apply.

IASA frames on certain attacks have been brought up before, and they're a good idea, but that will take a much longer time to code, since the attacks that receive it will be unique to each character, and will not be internally consistent until every character has them.