Wofl Q&A/Social

[Ishiey]

I've done that before, it's not new at all :/ also, I was kinda holding my breath for a not-wall CG lol. Either way, it's a good thing to keep in mind because it really is a lot better than the dtilt lock for sure.

 

[DUB]

Have time to Up-Smash after D-throw? About how big is the frame advantage afterwards?

Gonna start playing PS1 and Delfino more with Wolf. Side Question about PS1: I've seen someone scar the tree from left to right on the fire transformation. Is this just a positioning thing?

 

[Rizen]

on battlefield, or other stages with platforms near the edge, if the opponent is hanging on the edge and you are on the platform near the edge with ur back facing the edge, u can punish all options from a lot of characters if you react fast enough.

Can't anyone ledge-hop>airdodge>shield their langing and maybe shield grab if you don't double jump after the Bair?
This is basically like saying outsmart the opponent with mindgames and reading their patterns on the edge

I was kinda holding my breath for a not-wall CG lol. Either way, it's a good thing to keep in mind because it really is a lot better than the dtilt lock for sure.

^

Sorry for being negative, these are still good to remember.

 

[Ishiey]

I think the point of JJ's method is that the only thing fast enough to avoid a bair is a regular getup, and barring a PS, they'll get pushed back onto the ledge due to bair's shieldpush, resetting the situation. Almost everything else, as he said, is punishable with a quick enough reaction speed.

Also, yes, there is enough of a frame advantage towards the end of the dthrow wall lock for an usmash.

 

[castorpollux]

Can't anyone ledge-hop>airdodge>shield their langing and maybe shield grab if you don't double jump after the Bair?

You are misunderstanding what I wrote. You are supposed to be standing on the platform so you can drop down bair. You aren't on the ground. Also, you can react to "ledgehop -> airdodge" and punish the landing lag with the bair. If you react too slow, your bair pushes him back to the edge which brings you back to the original situation and you can repeat this. This isn't "mindgames" and reading people because drop down bair is the only option that you need to do. Reading people implies that you are predictively using the correct moves to punish the options you think you're opponent will be using. In this case, all you are doing is reacting with drop-down bair.





Ish, this punishes regular getup if you react fast enough. You dont even need to react fast to this, caz you can see his getup onto the ledge animation. And yes, if you react too slow, u knock him back onto the ledge.

Like i said before, drop-down bair punishes the following:

-regular ledge getup
-rolling off the ledge (he will roll past your bair but it's a free AAA or dsmash)
-drop down from ledge-> jump -> airdodge -> shield
- jump from the ledge (some characters like d3 can jump from the ledge and airdodge and keep jumping to avoid the bair, but this puts him in such **** position)



But seriously, test this out people before making any assumption. you got to think about and read what I actually write. I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you guys and explain why it works

 

[tekkie]

dammit i had high hopes lol

 

[Rizen]

You are misunderstanding what I wrote. You are supposed to be standing on the platform so you can drop down bair. You aren't on the ground.

But seriously, test this out people before making any assumption. you got to think about and read what I actually write. I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you guys and explain why it works

I understood what you said. I just don't think it's as air-tight as you do and it's based on timing and mindgames like all ledge return punishers.

 

[Seagull Joe]

What JJ said pretty much makes ****ed when he is at the edge. It also can **** up other characters, but you know exactly what they'll do. will side b back given his limited options that is guarding, which you can use to drop and laser to force RCO lag when you see him about to do it.

Only character this probably wouldn't work on is because in the time to SHAD back on stage and shield he is gonna be using GSL, which I wouldn't like to challenge. Otherwise WOFL guarding is pretty OP. I'll prob start doing it on BF, lylat, and Ps1.

This also won't work in dittos because of scaring .

 

[tekkie]

This also won't work in dittos because of scaring .

free laser though inkiepie:

 

[MegaRobMan]

Only character this probably wouldn't work on is BUT HE'S BANNED LOLOOOOOOOOLOLOOLOLLOLOLOLOOLLOLOL

RSR, why are you giving the penguins our secrets, they are gonna figure out how to grab us from the air

 

[rsr2]

Because. I like turtles.

 

[Rizen]

Turtles? I missed something.

RSR, why are you giving the penguins our secrets, they are gonna figure out how to grab us from the air

*Suuuuuuuck*

 

[Deleted member]

dammit i had high hopes lol

You should know better. Not the first time this has happened, lol.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

wouldnt work well on pikachu. would be a guessing game

 

[_Kain_]

wouldnt work well on pikachu. would be a guessing game

That's like saying that for every character...you have your 2-3 things you can do as a standalone character for getting back on stage. It's always a guessing game, but it's still capable of covering all your options

 

[Stealth Raptor]

it cant cover all options. if there is a platform we can ledge hop to QA either onto platform or under. i do not think you have an option that covers both at the same time, the whole point of it was to cover all ledge options, but i think QAC adds an additional option that cant be covered. im not saying its unpunishable, but you have to guess which angle we take -shrug

if you can show a vid of it covering all QA options on reaction i would be very interested to see

 

[Seagull Joe]

Doesn't QA have RCO lag associated with it? You s talk like it's a godlike move for evading things and such, but it can leave you in the worst situations possible given that fact.

 

[Stealth Raptor]

if you QA into ground and touch from there you have no lag and rco is canceled. only way to fully cancel it without its effects iirc. there is a small amount of lag landing from it but its far less then RCO. QAC isnt godly, its easily punishable if guessed correctly. but you still have to be guessed correctly. my scenario involves two seperate paths that QA can travel. i could be wrong and you could cover all options but i would like to see it first

 

[Rizen]

To be clear, I think the tactic sounds really good. But not foolproof.

 

[Ishiey]

skdnfakdsf can't wait to play Wolf vs Pikachu a crapton at APEX. Idk, I think WOFL guarding would kinda work against QA since we wouldn't platform drop if we see Pika start to QA, and then it's more or less 50-50 because as Stealth said Pika has two main separate paths for QA. Quick attack is so good though, if only you could pseudo-cancel it like in 64 :3

 

[castorpollux]

pikachu can probably avoid it.


however, Characters like snake = guaranteed punish if you practice your reaction enough.

There isn't a single option snake can do from the ledge without getting punished (VERY POWERFUL)




@Rizen


Reason why I don't think you understand what I'm saying is that you mentioned something about a double jump. In the situation I'm talking about, wolf CAN'T doublejump. So when you mentioned doublejump, you really don't understand what I'm trying to say. I guess I should be more clearer, but I'm too lazy to explain it again

I understood what you said. I just don't think it's as air-tight as you do and it's based on timing and mindgames like all ledge return punishers.

Also, I dont understand why you think there are mindgames in what I was talking about. All you do is platform drop -> bair when you see him move from the edge. Where is the mindgame?

There is timing which can be tricky, but how is timing a mindgame? Is a D3 mindgaming me when he's timing the edge infinite?

 

[Rizen]

Reason why I don't think you understand what I'm saying is that you mentioned something about a double jump. In the situation I'm talking about, wolf CAN'T doublejump. So when you mentioned doublejump, you really don't understand what I'm trying to say. I guess I should be more clearer, but I'm too lazy to explain it again






Also, I dont understand why you think there are mindgames in what I was talking about. All you do is platform drop -> bair when you see him move from the edge. Where is the mindgame?

There is timing which can be tricky, but how is timing a mindgame? Is a D3 mindgaming me when he's timing the edge infinite?

I thought Wolf could platform drop a Bair and double jump before he landed.

DDD's dumb grab tactics have the same timing for the same situations so it doesn't involve predicting the opponent once he's started (dumb penguin). Bair guarding is timed based on if your opponent takes one of several options and how much they stall. I don't think mindgames are a bad thing; I probably have a wider view of what mindgames are considered. For me a mindgame can be as simple as walking back a few steps to throw off an opponent's spacing and Fsmashing.

With Bair guarding if you Drop>Bair when the opponent fakes a ledgehop but grabs the edge again most opponents have a window to quickly return to the stage. Several ledge attacks have invulnerability that Wolf would have to wait for before he can drop>Bair. The added option of rolling onto the stage alone adds a little reading and punishing. Several ledgehop airdodges go far enough into the stage to not be pushed offstage if the opponent shields upon landing. But there are a lot of ledge stall/ledgehop character specifics that Wold couldn't simply time a platform drop>Bair and stop.
Characters with range-attack planking can force Wolf to defend himself with that. Most planking options won't be stopped.
G&W can ledgestall UpB through the Bair so it might be better to jump and Fair him. Ike could UpB plank Wolf, DK and Charazard could UpB through the drop>Bair using their armor frames too. Yoshi can double jump when s/he's done egg planking. Marth/Squirtle/Mario/Samus/Kirby might be able to UpB safely. Mario can cape. Marth/Ike/Peach can counter Bair guarding. Link/TLink (maybe Samus) can Zair tether ledgestall 3 times and build up invincibility to ledgehop an attack safely. Link/TLink could drop>bombpull>ledgehop 'invincibomb'. Kirby/DDD/Wario might be able to ledge hop swallow. MK's broken. And so on.
Wolf can punish these tactics, mostly, but he has to be ready to do something besides platform drop>Bair. This is why I said it is based on mindgames and reading people. It still is a good starting position and probably covers more possible ledge returns than anything else. Most things in smashbros are about mindgames/reading people (and the character imbalance) so I don't mean anything bad by that.

 

[Seagull Joe]

Happy birthday self.

 

[Rizen]

Happy birthday Seagull Man!

'Just curious, how did you think up that name?

 

[Ishiey]

Happy birthday Gull!

Rizen, idk. I disagree, near everything can still essentially be covered by bair lol. Don't drop if they're not going above the ledge, and then it's just timing. Some SA options are a pain, yes. Some planking options are a pain too (although only attacks with suitable trajectories are Yoshi's eggs and G&W's bacon, maybe PKT too, no way Aether will reach that far though). But overall it's still a good position to be in.

 

[Rizen]

Happy birthday Gull!

Rizen, idk. I disagree, near everything can still essentially be covered by bair lol. Don't drop if they're not going above the ledge, and then it's just timing. Some SA options are a pain, yes. Some planking options are a pain too (although only attacks with suitable trajectories are Yoshi's eggs and G&W's bacon, maybe PKT too, no way Aether will reach that far though). But overall it's still a good position to be in.

You're kind of saying almost everything can be covered by Bair except the things that can't but it's a good position to be in?
I don't see how this conflicts with what I posted. I'm not against using Bair from a platform; I said it probably covers the most options. My only argument in this line of discussion was that it relies on reading and mindgames, like almost everything.

I don't know what we're disagreeing on?

Depending on the stage, peanuts, boomerangs, blizzards, DDD minions, Pikmin, (maybe light arrows,) rock smash, ROB beam, and homing missiles could somewhat be planked with and connect too.

 

[tekkie]

wofl doesn't have any guaranteed/sort-of-pseudo-combo bull**** lol that's why no one's good with him, because you can't just learn something easy and be decent, like spamming ftilt/utilt with snake, IC's CG, D3's cg, falco's CG, olimar's grab > air combos, sheik's ftilt, fox's utilt>usmash, pressing buttons with MK, etc

you bair and you RUN AWAY

same thing with the platform ledge guarding, it's kinda neat since its a good position and its a great place to be but it isn't like once you get someone to the ledge on BF you autowin rofl


SPECIAL DELIVERY

 

[MegaRobMan]

^hahahahahaha

 

[DUB]

Ish how do you like the Wolf+ROB team?

 

[Deleted member]

Happy Birthday, Joe!

Did everyone see the MU chart?

 

[Ishiey]

You're kind of saying almost everything can be covered by Bair except the things that can't but it's a good position to be in?
I don't see how this conflicts with what I posted. I'm not against using Bair from a platform; I said it probably covers the most options. My only argument in this line of discussion was that it relies on reading and mindgames, like almost everything.

I don't know what we're disagreeing on?

Depending on the stage, peanuts, boomerangs, blizzards, DDD minions, Pikmin, (maybe light arrows,) rock smash, ROB beam, and homing missiles could somewhat be planked with and connect too.

I don't either X___x what I'm basically trying to say is that it's still pretty useful and doesn't rely on reading and mindgames but rather accurate reaction to cover the options that it does cover, I guess.

wofl doesn't have any guaranteed/sort-of-pseudo-combo bull**** lol that's why no one's good with him, because you can't just learn something easy and be decent, like spamming ftilt/utilt with snake, IC's CG, D3's cg, falco's CG, olimar's grab > air combos, sheik's ftilt, fox's utilt>usmash, pressing buttons with MK, etc

you bair and you RUN AWAY

same thing with the platform ledge guarding, it's kinda neat since its a good position and its a great place to be but it isn't like once you get someone to the ledge on BF you autowin rofl


SPECIAL DELIVERY

Basically lol. The woes of not being top-tier

Ish how do you like the Wolf+ROB team?

Dthrow or air release into ROB's dair is SO awesome. I think it's decent, although I do have a bit of an issue with ROB's large frame since it kinda leads to a lot of Wolf's attacks getting in the way, but then again the one time I teamed with a ROB I was playing kinda off :/ in the end though, I think doubles is mostly about synergy, and Wolf/ROB is certainly workable.

 

[castorpollux]

okay fair enough, it requires some reaction, but i honestly think if you practice it enough, ull basically rack a shiitttton of damage onto your opponent

 

[rsr2]

Happy new years Wofls.

 

[DUB]

2012 Wolf Resolutions?

 

[Laem]

I can't believe it's already been a year since I promised myself to get better at Wolf's DACUS. Result of that: yeah....... Same resolutions as last time XD
Anyway, happy new year and happy belated bday to Gull :D

 

[Rizen]

Hey, the world didn't end; what a surprise!
Happy New year!

I need to learn to scar consistantly. I grab a ledge>tap away>forwardB and usually just regrab the ledge. Is my timing too slow/fast?

 

[DUB]

Hey, the world didn't end; what a surprise!
Happy New year!

I need to learn to scar consistantly. I grab a ledge>tap away>forwardB and usually just regrab the ledge. Is my timing too slow/fast?

If you are regrabbing then it is too slow. Mash forward immediately after you hit back. You don't have to be lightning quick but scarring is pretty easy to consistently do 100% of the time.

Which reminds me to answer one of my own questions I had earlier: To scar the tree on the Fire transformation of PS1 you just have to move about a character length from the edge and Jump-->Immediately Side-B and it should leave you very low to the ground on the other side.

 

[rsr2]

2012 Wolf Resolutions?

Brawl Resolutions

Play more. I really don't play as much anymore.
Host tournaments. I am hosting one in 3 weeks. But I would like to host at least 4.
Be more active on the forums because I love you guys <3

Non Brawl Resolutions
Travel more. Mostly Brawl tournaments and Magic the Gathering tournaments (I guess that goes for brawl too but this is just a general. I love to travel.)
Play in the WSOP this year. Main or not any event will do.
Play on 50 different Disc Golf Courses this year.
Find a better job.

 

[tekkie]

**** *****es in the ***

brb smashfest

 

[KRDsonic]

Hey, the world didn't end; what a surprise!
Happy New year!

I need to learn to scar consistantly. I grab a ledge>tap away>forwardB and usually just regrab the ledge. Is my timing too slow/fast?

Hold Downwards after you press Side B. Unless you're asking about lightstepping instead.