~ Wolf's Match-Up's ~

[BoTastic!]

Wolf can recover under smashville? o_0

 

[Turbo Ether]

Yup. Delfino too with Side+B. Possibly an abusable stall on Delfino until the stage changes.

 

[BoTastic!]

cool didn't know that gonna try it haha

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Btw wolfs recovery is harder to gimp if you can use your Illusion cancel.

Either way, it's not horrible. It's bad compared to many other charaters in brawl but it's still better than people say and it's still not as bad as Ivy's, Olimars, CF, Ganon, Link and Ikes, just to name some. But then again, Falco had a bad recovery too in melee and look, where he was on the tier lists! So it really doesn't make him as bad as some ppl insist on. It's really annoying to see some n00bish match-up threads with comments like: "W0lf's recovery is teh phail so u win" and BS like that.

Mario can gimp his recovery very well though

 

[§witch]

cape does NOT work very well, if you reflect it, the laser won't reach wolf.

 

[BoTastic!]

cape does NOT work very well, if you reflect it, the laser won't reach wolf.

Doesn't matter.. It stops mario from getting hit by the laser.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Yes, that's the most important thing about it. However, it does force Mario to approach, since he can't just stand back and use his cape all the time. If he makes a tiny mistake and gets hit by the blaster, he just wasted his time.

 

[BoTastic!]

well we already covered that didn't we? The match up should be settled now for 60:40 in wolf's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Ok, if you agree with that, it's ok.

Anyways: Thanks for your input BOX7, it's always good to hear stuff from other mains

 

[BoTastic!]

No Problem Gheb glad to contribute.

 

[ArcPoint]

Yeah, your input was welcome, so 60:40 Wolf's favor? Not too much of an advantage, just an advantage, can be easily overcome by good players (Boss lol)

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, seems like this matchup is pretty much covered. And once more, thanks mario mains for your input, especially BO X7. So, now that we've covered mario, who's next?

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Next is gonna be DK. I'll do that tonight (I'm european so you have to wait only a few hours).

Edit: I updated the OP. DK is the next match-up being discussed

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, this one seems to be all about the better player. The lack of disjointed hitboxes for DK means the reflector will be loads of fun, and with enough practice, spiking him out of his upb is invaluable. The super armor is an issue though, or at least for me. I see a lot of DKs using the cargo throw to throw someone up and then using an uair, but a shine might be able to get through. Forcing DK to approach is a big plus though, just make sure you know what you're doing and don't give him the chance to own you. If all else seems to fail, just flee to the other side of the stage and start blastering, you probably won't be proud of it, but in a tournament, winning takes priority.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Something that's worth a try is the reverse grab. It's extremely fast and hard to predict. You may want to you use it, if you find yourself running away constantly

 

[ArcPoint]

You mean that thing where you slide through them and grab facing the opposite way you started? That actually seemed pretty epic, I can't do it at all consistently (Or at all for that matter). But I've done it once before on accident, and so it seems like it can be useful, I just need to be able to do it consistently. What's the timing for Wolf? I always just do the regular grab or do the Boost Smash xD

But anyone, onto the actual topic of Wolf vs DK.

DK soaks up damage, has an epic Bair, 3 spikes. Great horizontal recovery (Not so good Vertical), great grab game, his tilts ****, his specials ****, some aerials have start up lag, but the majority of them are solid. Oh yeah, DK can KO Wolf fairly well. DK mains, did I miss anything?

I think this is 60:40 Dk's favor.

Dk's tilts outrange most everything Wolf has, DK can Utilt Wolf until about 30-40%, DK can kill Wolf very easily, Wolf can't kill DK until later on. Dk's specials are amazing.

DK gets to play the outspacing game on this one, except for Wolf's Fsmash and blaster. Those two things are something he has on DK. Other than that I really can't think of anything else to say, I'm blank today >_>

 

[Ishiey]

Something else that might be useful is dthrow right off the ledge, since it sends the opponent very low it could be used to set up for edgehogging DK's crap vertical recovery, or a spike. I honestly don't see much hope in this matchup if wolf doesn't seize every gimp possible. Just force DK to go low and capitalize on his easily read recovery for the spike, and the win is possible. Otherwise, have fun waiting till 140% + to kill DK with a fresh dsmash.

 

[The GERM]

yea wolf pretty much blows............easy to gimp can be comboed....badly

and has a horriable recovery....IMO wolf is probly one of the easiest to fight next to gannon and ike.....

and wolf doesnt have the advantage over mario....atleast not mine.....i mean there are some good ones like

germ
candy
chinesahh

but other then that na wolf is bad....

lol, Mario fu**ing blows

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Something else that might be useful is dthrow right off the ledge, since it sends the opponent very low it could be used to set up for edgehogging DK's crap vertical recovery, or a spike. I honestly don't see much hope in this matchup if wolf doesn't seize every gimp possible. Just force DK to go low and capitalize on his easily read recovery for the spike, and the win is possible. Otherwise, have fun waiting till 140% + to kill DK with a fresh dsmash.

Wait. Didn't you just say you agree with the 50:50 match up? HAve you changed your mind?

 

[Ishiey]

No, I still think this matchup is even, or just about even, I just think it could go either way depending on the playstyles, the gimping is a big advantage for wolf and the ridiculous range is a big advantage for DK, it just sorta comes down to who can take advantage of their strengths more to me. Sometimes I don't really show a clear point of view, so my bad ._.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So you say it's rather 45:55 for DK or strikly 50:50?

I might post into the DK boards to see, what they have to say about this one

 

[§witch]

60:40 DK's favour.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

^ reasons?

 

[Turbo Ether]

I'm starting to think this matchup favors Wolf.

Reasons:
DK has an awkward time approaching him and he's forced to approach. Blaster controls the horizontal field and Fair controls aerial approaches. A lot of people don't realize how insane Fair's priority is. So, It obviously beats DK's Bair, his best aerial approach. Overall, I believe SH Fair is Wolf's best move in this fight. Not only is it excellent for anti-air, it's also his safest poke against DK. Additionally, DK can have a hard time landing if Wolf is under him.

DK does live forever, but the fact that he's one of the easiest characters to spike and has bad vertical recovery needs to be considered. The most annoying attack DK has is Dtilt. If DK perfectly spaces it, it can't be punished on block. DK's Fsmash is nasty, but it has some startup time and enough ending lag to punish on block at any range. SideB is deadly too. Like Fsmash, it has some noticeable startup time and lag. Obviously this move is extremely deadly and does tons of shield damage.

Overall Wolf has more control over the match up. 55/45 Wolf's favor.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

These lags aren't necesarily bad for DK if used smartly. Awkward timings are also hard to predict

 

[Ripple]

DK has the advantage 60-40

DK can pressure shields like no other character. bair to side b will break your shield 3/4 of the time depending how you time each move. DK can still bair to bair and back off so he can't be shield grabbed, DK can also approach short and use down b so if the wolf is at the edge spamming he will get hit by it 95% of the time.

DK's approach>wolf's defense

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, a good DK player can get around the strange start up times, probably get you used to constant spotdodging from ftilt or something. I'm still going with 50:50, more or less. The thread in the DK boards seems to be going back and forth, so its definitely a close match. Just some general pros and cons for wolf...

Pros:
Blaster and SH fair, DK isn't the best at approaching so use it to your advantage
DK has a sub-par vertical recovery that can be spiked with practice for an early kill

Cons:
DK has more range and power than Wolf, so anything above 80% should be the last number you see
DK is heavy, plus a decent horizontal recovery means that dsmash isn't as effective as spiking for getting kills

 

[Turbo Ether]

DK has the advantage 60-40

DK can pressure shields like no other character. bair to side b will break your shield 3/4 of the time depending how you time each move. DK can still bair to bair and back off so he can't be shield grabbed, DK can also approach short and use down b so if the wolf is at the edge spamming he will get hit by it 95% of the time.

DK's approach>wolf's defense

I disagree. As soon as DK leaves the ground, Wolf's Fair is an amazing option if in range. It just... outprioritizes DK's Bair. DK is easier to fight in the air than on the ground. At least on the ground he can space safe Dtilts. Also, if you double bair a Wolf's shield and DI away, he can't shield grab it, but i'm fairly certain that the landing lag is punishable with Fsmash. The downB thing, i'm trying to picture. I'm not sure what you mean by "spamming".

 

[~ Gheb ~]

DK has the advantage 60-40

DK can pressure shields like no other character. bair to side b will break your shield 3/4 of the time depending how you time each move. DK can still bair to bair and back off so he can't be shield grabbed, DK can also approach short and use down b so if the wolf is at the edge spamming he will get hit by it 95% of the time.

DK's approach>wolf's defense

You forgot about the fact, that Shine couters all mentioned moves of DK but I get your point...to some extent

 

[Ishiey]

DK's down B has deceptive range, so... yeah, watch out for that. DK slamming on the arrow closest to the center diamond on FD can hit someone right next to the ledge, for reference. Ripple knows what he's talking about though, shielding against DK might not always be the best idea, so just... use the reflector when you can't keep your distance >.>

EDIT: Dtilt and downb have pretty much the same range though (for DK), in case anyone wanted to know.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

What about the lags of DKs downB? Can't Wolf just roll back and fire a blaster?

 

[Ishiey]

There isn't TOO much start up lag on DK's down B, and a short hopped laser will still hit him out of it, so I guess it's not a move to fear too much, although it could catch you off guard every once in a while. The cool down isn't too long either, so I wouldn't go for an aerial during it just to be safe, SH blaster will get the job done it seems, rolling back would probably give DK time to shield.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

So what about the match-up? Half of the ppl say 50:50, the other half says 40:60.

I guess it would be reasonable to give a 45:55 to DK...maybe

 

[Ishiey]

Hmm... I'm still going to go with an even matchup, but I'm not that experienced, post the link to the thread in the DK section in the OP so people can see both sides. We need more debate between wolf and DK players IMO, maybe some friendlies online for testing if people don't die from lag.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

This is the link: http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=189548

As you can see, there are all answers from 50:50 to 60:40 (DK)

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Double Post: Ok, since there's no more news on DK i'll conclude it with a 45:55 for DK (I can still change it later) and move on with Link today

Edit: I updated it. Current match-up = vs. Link

 

[Ishiey]

Yeah, Link isn't so tough. He has to approach most times, but watch out for the bomb, a good link will throw it right at your feet, or bounce it off the bottom of your reflector. If they bounce it, just roll back to dodge the bomb, and continue with the laser/reflector. The lack of speed on all of his attacks makes up for their disjointed hitboxes, you can't counter with shine but you can dodge all of his tilts on the ground easily, as its not very hard to read Link's attacks either.

Aerials with the bomb are something to watch out for, good Links use bombs for all sorts of combos, and it also sets them up for the nair lock or a dair for the kill (SH bomb drop > footstool > ff nair/dair iirc). Dair has ridiculous priority, but the landing lag is easy to punish. Sometimes they can use dair as an edgeguard, many times you can't airdodge dair because its still there when you come out, maybe with near perfect timing you can dodge it, but just something to watch out for.

Zair is something I don't know way too much about, but lasers can probably stop that since Wolf's stance is low so Link has to zair fairly low. His grab, while it comes out fairly quick, is VERY punishable. Just spotdodge the grab and punish. However, since it does come out at a decent speed, watch out for shield grabs, he can probably even grab you out of a perfectly spaced bair, but I don't know for sure.

Link's recovery is crap, so own him off the stage. Edgehogging works well for the zair, and his upB is easily spiked. Lasers off stage will also piss a Link off. Watch out for his nair, its surprisingly quick, and his bair is pretty quick too, but they don't have much range. Link can kill easily, but dair and upb on the stage are his top kill moves, don't forget that he can charge his upB, so don't fall into it, illusion cancel to gain some distance instead of risking an airdodge near him. I'd say 65:35 Wolf, or something around there. Link IS heavy, so killing is a little bit tougher, but 'comboing' is easier due to his fast falling speed, and I can't really think of anything that Link has on Wolf that can't be overcome.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

I think most Links will try to throw the bomb downwards from a full jump. The bomb doesn't get reflected back to them and they can set up their footstool-bomb to Jab lock combo. Quite tricky but rather predictable imo

 

[§witch]

You should start with the characters most used in tourneys, or wolf's hard match-ups, link is not one of them...

 

[Ishiey]

You should start with the characters most used in tourneys, or wolf's hard match-ups, link is not one of them...

Well... this didn't happen originally because... idk, something about saving those characters for later to keep up with the metagame? You do have a point though, it might be a better idea to cover more common matchups first, and get that to attract attention to the thread so more people post opinions when someone uncommon comes along later... and we can always go back to old matchups that the community feels needs some revisiting... Since we're on link now we might as well wait until he's finished before moving on to more common people. I suggest Dedede for week 4, because theres already the post on the first page about him, and I'm pretty sure everyone has played against a D3 so there will be more people and therefore more opinions.

Back to link, for him to zair you for full damage he will have to get well into your fsmash range, so use fsmash as a counter when expecting zair. It has very little, if not 0, landing lag when done properly though so link can jab or something right after landing, SH towards wolf would put him well in jab range.