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Yoshi v. Falco

D

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Test question: Can you outcamp him?

Answer: No, never. Yoshi will be forced to approach if he/she wants to deal any damage. Yoshi does NOT do well with approaching Falco cause the CG still works so free 30-40%, plus the damage from lasers. Yoshi has poor defense options in this matchup so getting killed will be easier for Falco. It's all about approach Big Bird and Yoshi can't do that w/o obtaining a form of punishment.

40:60 :falco:

Edit: I've CG'd Yoshi before. If it doesn't work anymore than I need to see it for myself.
LOL
Falco outcamps MK, and yoshi gimps falco almost as well as MK does, and combos and sets up combos better.
Obviously MK does much better because he has better options in every situation :p


Edit: Nobody has adressed my points at all, just said "o falco ***** yoshi hes better we cant approach him"
 
D

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...
You walk you short hop, you air dodge, w/e u want.

Its not that hard, just annoying
 

.Marik

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>_<

It's not the hardest matchup out there, doesn't make it even though.
 

Metatitan

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The more i read this thread, the more I see the matchup not being that bad
The more you read theorycraft for options you CAN do, the more any matchup seems even. I don't consider the matchup anywhere near even. Falco can shut down a large portion of yoshi's already limited approaches while yoshi doesn't shut anything down.

You talk about gimping falco but he can gimp you just as easily/easier. I'm not saying "lulzyoshican'tdo****" but I don't consider the matchup even. 40:60 falco at the best and 30:70 or so at the worst. That's off of the little I saw larry do to you stocky.
 
D

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Falco doesnt have any guarenteed gimps on yoshi, you have to get grabbed to get gimped, and he has to read you very well/you be bad for that to happen.

Yoshi gimps are impossible to avoid in some situations, and in others you can get a lot of damage off of them.
 

Metatitan

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Exactly. Unavoidable in some situations. You're not gonna gimp a smart falco all 3 stocks, otherwise I could assume the same that they would gimp you all three stocks.

You're trying to call the matchup even because you're good at gimping falco. Gimping him is important but it's only one aspect of the matchup and frankly against a good cautious falco, it won't be happening as much as we'd like :(

And his cg to spike sets you in a VERY bad position where you're just as likely to get gimped or take a ton of damage, and it's easier for him to grab you than vice versa.
 

pwiito

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I really don't know how do in this matchup, I just play with gnw cause i know the matchup much better, I've heard falco ***** yoshi so i haven't even tried it yet... D:
 

AfRo ToAd

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Yoshi vs Falco is a awesome match up! If u can grab him and throw him off the ledge then, while hes falling press B... just B when Yoshi Sticks out his tounge in Mid air...Falco/ Fox Tend to stay in Yoshis egg longer and drop faster than other charecters....Also Yoshi has a chain grab on MK......Grab MK....DONT THROW HIM!!! Press the attack button back and forth then when he jumps out of ur mouth run and grab him again.

Do this until ur @ the ledge of the stage...then while MK is falling off the stage hop off the ledge and spike him! Try this...i main Yoshi.
 

Shiri

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:yoshi: That's not Lil' B.

Anyway, what do you all you ladies do about Falco up tilt?

Just figured I'd ask.
 

Poltergust

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I... have no idea. I never saw Falco use his u-tilt before (or d-tilt, for that matter). o_O

Uh... treat it the way you do for Zero Suit Samus' u-tilt? They are basically the same thing: a quick OoS option that hits upwards but has a little bit of ending lag.


:069:
 
D

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Yoshi will generally not be in the area in which up tilt hits, as he wants to play it horizontally while falco is on the ground.

It kills at high percents, and its generally one of the most reliable kill moves of falcos OOS.
 

Poltergust

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If Falco kills you with that move, then you must be reallu good at surviving against him. With DI it shouldn't kill until like 190% or something.

...At least I think it's 190%. Like I said, I've never seen any Falco use this move, even though it is pretty good. @_@


:069:
 
D

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More like 140-150.
And falco is very easy to survive against, hes so predictable and he cant kill at high percents out of a grab so avoiding his smashes isnt that bad.
Fsmash is brutal though,
 

MX778

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If you get chaingrabbed from say... 1/2 to 2/3 of the stage and the Falco does it PERFECTLEY, you're basically screwed if the Falco chaingrab spikes you and then grabs the ledge. If he spikes you offstage anywhere after 40%, there's no way you'll make it back to the ledge without Egg Tossing, but you'll only make it to the ledge at the least and Falco will be hogging it, so your only hope at that point is to hit him with the Egg Toss while avoiding his invulnerablity frames.

Yes, those ****ing lasers are annyoing and they block out nearly everything that we try to do, but there is something good that can come of this. If you manange to eat lasers to 40% you can rest knowing that you won't get chaingrabbed to oblivion, but the fight is just starting now. :edit: Basically, after you get blasted/take damage up to 40%, you have get to go in and fight without any worries of getting chaingrab/chaingrab spiked. However, once you get in, you need to to STAY IN. Letting Falco regain his advantage will take us like another 50% until we can get ours back. So, once you get in, we need to stay on his ***.

Even in close combat, it won't be easy. Falco's jab is like 3x faster than ours. What's even worse is that it has a rather wide range as well. That ftilt has a pretty big range too. The solution I've come up with this is: Initiate that jab-crouch-jab-crouch thing against Falco (speaking more so at higher percents). What'll happen is that Yoshi's jab will come out just as fast as Falco's and it will clank, but keep doing it until it hits. Eventually, after about 3-4 hits, Yoshi will be outside of the range of boat the jab and Ftilt, but Falco will be within range of Yoshi's Fsmash.

The playing field gets set in Yoshi's favor whenever you grab Falco. When you grab Falco, make sure that YOU KNOW he can't avoid it. Missing that grab will result in Falco dodging it and you getting grabbed or eating a down smash and thus setting the playing field in Falco's favor all over again. Now you're stuck trying to get passed those blasted lasers all again. When/if you D-throw him and want to follow it up, Falco will probably beat you out of it with his D-air. You can bait this and punish it from the ground with a Uair or whatever you decide to do. Using Ftilt probably isn't the best idea either out of Bair. You'll be much better off using Utilt since Falco can't grab that as easy. Buffering the Chaingrab is a good idea, but missing is not. You also do not want to do this on a stage with relatively low platforms such as Battlefield.

When offstage....As much as you REALLY don't want to be high in the air at a high percentage, your only hope is to anticipate his rising Bair/Uair, dodge it and land on the ground safely and continue to play it safe and hopefully make it through. When coming on the stage from below however, you HAVE to be mindful of the F-tilt and F-smash. Both of which **** Yoshi pretty ****ing hard to say the least, if you get hit with either one, you're dead so be careful when doing this. If you can grab the ledge and Egg camp and work your way up, Falco won't have time to pull off either move. If he's close enough you can enter the stage with a rising Egg Lay, but you have to be fast and unpredictable about it though or you're just about as good as dead. :edit: If you are below the stage, I would advise NOT throwing an Egg. Doing so will get you jabbed then edge hogged. He can also grab you out of your second jump and then you're really screwed.

When Falco is offstage, he can EASILY be gimped with correct timing via Egg Lay, Dair, F-air spike etc. You can predict where he will land from his side-B and **** him with a F-smash if he lands in front of your face on the stage. Yoshi's Nair cancels out the phantasm as well. If you time it right, Yoshi can jab Falco out of his double jump return for the ledge. Honestly, it'll take AT LEAST 1 second for the player to figure out what just happened. So, depending on how far down he falls after the jab, will determine what you should do next. If he comes back with the Fire bird, just edgehog him. If he's able to return with the Phantasm, Nair him until he cannot return. 2 Nair's should do the trick, but just make sure you can return yourself.

Egg Rolling is only good for keeping him in the air after throwing him in the air. Other than that, you really shouldn't use it much. If at all.

Getting in close and getting Falco off the ground is the key. Using Usmash is great for punishing any bad spotdodges or if we get a lucky jump imbetween the lasers. <3
 

Sharky

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notes:

nair beats illusion, if it hits during an invincible part of the illusion it will just cancel out, you won't be hit.

buffer your cgs.

egg roll is only good as a mix-up, and even there it's iffy. fix'd.
 

MX778

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notes:

nair beats illusion, if it hits during an invincible part of the illusion it will just cancel out, you won't be hit.

buffer your cgs.

egg roll is only good as a mix-up, and even there it's iffy. fix'd.
Thanks Sharky. : )
 

hadesblade

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SDI -> tech the spike.
Yoshi can chaingrab falco if you do it frame perfect via buffering.

Other than that nice post.

Haven't posted on yoshi boards in forever O_o
 

Airborne

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Edit 1: Falco AND Ganon can only be Egg layed out of release offstage.
Sheik AND Squirtle CANNOT escape the grab release to Fair offsage.
Wolf AND Fox are immune from anything inesacpeable. However, you can possibly pressure him away to get a efficient gimp kill.

Edit 2: Ness can be Uaired out of release.
There's your answer, Delta. =(
 
D

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Im unsure about MK.
If it does work, its a certain distance away from the ledge, not right on it.
I managed to kill zex at 70 with GR spike, and i dont think he could get out, but idk.
 

Z'zgashi

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I think it does but it's near frame perfect... Anyway it's falco discussion not mk so back on topic: Is it even possible to camp falco cuz I've tried and it doesn't work lol
 

Delta-cod

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I camp him when I have a stock lead and I'm at kill percents. No point in approaching then. You might be able to sneak an egg in as he's firing lasers. I've done it before.
 
D

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@delta, this does not work if the falco has a few functioning braincells.
@Zzgashi, no you cant camp falco. You can "aircamp" him (delta's definition of aircamp) by like full hopping and trying to bait something.

Approaching falco isnt that hard, just you cant walk PS like you can with like D3. Its a pain, the key is to not really care, as long as you dont get grabbed.

Getting grabbed by falco is AWFUL. It really is a game changer, with a simple read you lose the stock, thats the only reason why falco might win the matchup.
But yoshi can read a down air and downtilt falco and thats the stock too.
Its kinda fun :)
 
D

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Yup.
It actually gets really hard if they just decide to camp and the side b to the other side.
But falcos dont do that =]
 
D

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Its not easy but we win if falco messes up.
At a top level its probably like 20:80.
But nobody in the world plays it at anywhere close to it, so i think its more like 45:55.
 

Z'zgashi

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IMO it either 45:55 or 40:60 falcos favor, I feel right in between the two and I'm not sure which one to choose
 

MX778

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"Edit 1: Falco AND Ganon can only be Egg layed out of release offstage.
Sheik AND Squirtle CANNOT escape the grab release to Fair offsage.
Wolf AND Fox are immune from anything inesacpeable. However, you can possibly pressure him away to get a efficient gimp kill.

Edit 2: Ness can be Uaired out of release."
^
^
The 1st part is almost true. Olimar can be Egg Lay'd and spiked out of grab release as well. The spike has to be frame perfect though as Scatz showed on his Youtube video. I've done it myself, and I gotta' say..It's pretty legit.

And Ness CAN be U-air'd out of grab release. You have to be quick with it, but just give it a try. ; )
 

Sharky

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that quote wasn't saying only those two can be egg layed, but that they can only be egglayed, there's a difference lol.
 
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