Yoshi v. Falco

[Deleted member]

Short hope to spike combos are so beast

 

[MX778]

If you get chaingrabbed from say... 1/2 to 2/3 of the stage and the Falco does it PERFECTLEY, you're basically screwed if the Falco chaingrab spikes you and then grabs the ledge. If he spikes you offstage anywhere after 40%, there's no way you'll make it back to the ledge without Egg Tossing, but you'll only make it to the ledge at the least and Falco will be hogging it, so your only hope at that point is to hit him with the Egg Toss while avoiding his invulnerablity frames.

Yes, those ****ing lasers are annyoing and they block out nearly everything that we try to do, but there is something good that can come of this. If you manange to eat lasers to 40% you can rest knowing that you won't get chaingrabbed to oblivion, but the fight is just starting now. :edit: Basically, after you get blasted/take damage up to 40%, you have get to go in and fight without any worries of getting chaingrab/chaingrab spiked. However, once you get in, you need to to STAY IN. Letting Falco regain his advantage will take us like another 50% until we can get ours back. So, once you get in, we need to stay on his ***.

Even in close combat, it won't be easy. Falco's jab is like 3x faster than ours. What's even worse is that it has a rather wide range as well. That ftilt has a pretty big range too. The solution I've come up with this is: Initiate that jab-crouch-jab-crouch thing against Falco (speaking more so at higher percents). What'll happen is that Yoshi's jab will come out just as fast as Falco's and it will clank, but keep doing it until it hits. Eventually, after about 3-4 hits, Yoshi will be outside of the range of boat the jab and Ftilt, but Falco will be within range of Yoshi's Fsmash.

The playing field gets set in Yoshi's favor whenever you grab Falco. When you grab Falco, make sure that YOU KNOW he can't avoid it. Missing that grab will result in Falco dodging it and you getting grabbed or eating a down smash and thus setting the playing field in Falco's favor all over again. Now you're stuck trying to get passed those blasted lasers all again. When/if you D-throw him and want to follow it up, Falco will probably beat you out of it with his D-air. You can bait this and punish it from the ground with a Uair or whatever you decide to do. Using Ftilt probably isn't the best idea either out of Bair. You'll be much better off using Utilt since Falco can't grab that as easy. Buffering the Chaingrab is a good idea, but missing is not. You also do not want to do this on a stage with relatively low platforms such as Battlefield.

When offstage....As much as you REALLY don't want to be high in the air at a high percentage, your only hope is to anticipate his rising Bair/Uair, dodge it and land on the ground safely and continue to play it safe and hopefully make it through. When coming on the stage from below however, you HAVE to be mindful of the F-tilt and F-smash. Both of which **** Yoshi pretty ****ing hard to say the least, if you get hit with either one, you're dead so be careful when doing this. If you can grab the ledge and Egg camp and work your way up, Falco won't have time to pull off either move. If he's close enough you can enter the stage with a rising Egg Lay, but you have to be fast and unpredictable about it though or you're just about as good as dead. :edit: If you are below the stage, I would advise NOT throwing an Egg. Doing so will get you jabbed then edge hogged. He can also grab you out of your second jump and then you're really screwed.

When Falco is offstage, he can EASILY be gimped with correct timing via Egg Lay, Dair, F-air spike etc. You can predict where he will land from his side-B and **** him with a F-smash if he lands in front of your face on the stage. Yoshi's Nair cancels out the phantasm as well. If you time it right, Yoshi can jab Falco out of his double jump return for the ledge. Honestly, it'll take AT LEAST 1 second for the player to figure out what just happened. So, depending on how far down he falls after the jab, will determine what you should do next. If he comes back with the Fire bird, just edgehog him. If he's able to return with the Phantasm, Nair him until he cannot return. 2 Nair's should do the trick, but just make sure you can return yourself.

Egg Rolling is only good for keeping him in the air after throwing him in the air. Other than that, you really shouldn't use it much. If at all.

Getting in close and getting Falco off the ground is the key. Using Usmash is great for punishing any bad spotdodges or if we get a lucky jump imbetween the lasers. <3

I editted this from my previous post. Surely, it will be of assistance.

 

[hadesblade]

If you get chaingrabbed from say... 1/2 to 2/3 of the stage and the Falco does it PERFECTLEY, you're basically screwed if the Falco chaingrab spikes you and then grabs the ledge. If he spikes you offstage anywhere after 40%, there's no way you'll make it back to the ledge without Egg Tossing, but you'll only make it to the ledge at the least and Falco will be hogging it, so your only hope at that point is to hit him with the Egg Toss while avoiding his invulnerablity frames.

Properly meteor cancelling with your double jump will put you well above the ledge with the DJ, however if you do mess it up then that is true.

Yes, those ****ing lasers are annyoing and they block out nearly everything that we try to do, but there is something good that can come of this. If you manange to eat lasers to 40% you can rest knowing that you won't get chaingrabbed to oblivion, but the fight is just starting now. :edit: Basically, after you get blasted/take damage up to 40%, you have get to go in and fight without any worries of getting chaingrab/chaingrab spiked. However, once you get in, you need to to STAY IN. Letting Falco regain his advantage will take us like another 50% until we can get ours back. So, once you get in, we need to stay on his ***.

Even in close combat, it won't be easy. Falco's jab is like 3x faster than ours. What's even worse is that it has a rather wide range as well. That ftilt has a pretty big range too. The solution I've come up with this is: Initiate that jab-crouch-jab-crouch thing against Falco (speaking more so at higher percents). What'll happen is that Yoshi's jab will come out just as fast as Falco's and it will clank, but keep doing it until it hits. Eventually, after about 3-4 hits, Yoshi will be outside of the range of boat the jab and Ftilt, but Falco will be within range of Yoshi's Fsmash.

If you clank jabs with falco, going for a pivot grab will often put you right out of range of his jab and you get a grab.

The playing field gets set in Yoshi's favor whenever you grab Falco. When you grab Falco, make sure that YOU KNOW he can't avoid it. Missing that grab will result in Falco dodging it and you getting grabbed or eating a down smash and thus setting the playing field in Falco's favor all over again. Now you're stuck trying to get passed those blasted lasers all again. When/if you D-throw him and want to follow it up, Falco will probably beat you out of it with his D-air. You can bait this and punish it from the ground with a Uair or whatever you decide to do. Using Ftilt probably isn't the best idea either out of Bair. You'll be much better off using Utilt since Falco can't grab that as easy. Buffering the Chaingrab is a good idea, but missing is not. You also do not want to do this on a stage with relatively low platforms such as Battlefield.

Platforms don't stop the chaingrab because falco falls so low. bair -> jab, ftilt, and utilt all work fine, just do what feels comfortable. I know I use all 3 depending on %'s/DI

When offstage....As much as you REALLY don't want to be high in the air at a high percentage, your only hope is to anticipate his rising Bair/Uair, dodge it and land on the ground safely and continue to play it safe and hopefully make it through. When coming on the stage from below however, you HAVE to be mindful of the F-tilt and F-smash. Both of which **** Yoshi pretty ****ing hard to say the least, if you get hit with either one, you're dead so be careful when doing this. If you can grab the ledge and Egg camp and work your way up, Falco won't have time to pull off either move. If he's close enough you can enter the stage with a rising Egg Lay, but you have to be fast and unpredictable about it though or you're just about as good as dead. :edit: If you are below the stage, I would advise NOT throwing an Egg. Doing so will get you jabbed then edge hogged. He can also grab you out of your second jump and then you're really screwed.

If falco jumps up directly under you just down B lol. He can bair you out of it if he's spaced to the side but if he goes to one side to bair then you can just fall on the other. You have way more air speed than him.

When Falco is offstage, he can EASILY be gimped with correct timing via Egg Lay, Dair, F-air spike etc. You can predict where he will land from his side-B and **** him with a F-smash if he lands in front of your face on the stage. Yoshi's Nair cancels out the phantasm as well. If you time it right, Yoshi can jab Falco out of his double jump return for the ledge. Honestly, it'll take AT LEAST 1 second for the player to figure out what just happened. So, depending on how far down he falls after the jab, will determine what you should do next. If he comes back with the Fire bird, just edgehog him. If he's able to return with the Phantasm, Nair him until he cannot return. 2 Nair's should do the trick, but just make sure you can return yourself.

Egg Rolling is only good for keeping him in the air after throwing him in the air. Other than that, you really shouldn't use it much. If at all.

lol egg roll, might as well just grab him.

Getting in close and getting Falco off the ground is the key. Using Usmash is great for punishing any bad spotdodges or if we get a lucky jump imbetween the lasers. <3

I agree with most of it, changes in bold.

Also the chain grab on falco is not that hard. When you see falco then just hit dash and grab and it buffers it... You have 10 Frames to buffer it. It's Not That Hard. >_>

The only falco's I've played recently were approaching me instead of the other way around, so I'll wait a while to give a ratio.

 

[Yikarur]

in this ten frames you have to press the stick in a direction, press grab and release grab and return the stick in neutral position before the ten frames are finished!

 

[Poltergust]

OK, dedicating my 3000th post to this match-up discussion. Here are my thoughts.

Falco is a character that has quick, strong, high-priority moves that do very well to zone Yoshi. To be honest, it's hard to come up with a situation in which we have the positional advantage. The only time when Falco is not a clear danger to Yoshi is when he is above Yoshi. So what should we do in the match-up? Keep him above Yoshi.

Falco, thankfully, doesn't do so well when it comes to being juggled. His d-air has a large amount of range, yes, but Yoshi should never contest it. Instead, he should predict where and when it is going to be used and punish Falco for doing that move with a pivot-grab. Do the same for when he air-dodges. If Falco side-B's try to predict where he'll land and punish with Egg Toss. The only time Yoshi should attempt to directly beat out Falco in the air is when he's susceptible to being KO'ed by a u-air.

Of course, that's only one example of how this match-up plays out. If Yoshi goes aggro he's going to get *****, no questions asked. What this match-up should be is a battle of wits. Falco can easily shut down Yoshi when they are fighting head on with his own moveset, but a smart Yoshi player has a significantly better chance than one not using his head (in every sense of the word). The main objective is to keep Falco above you, where he fares worse against Yoshi than if he is on the ground.

Off-stage is also a good way to gain the positional advantage, but be careful about which moves you'll use to put him there. F-smash should only be used to punish his landing lag and d-smash is extremely punishable by Falco if he shields it, but d-tilt and the chain-grab are very good for putting him off-stage. Also, his vertical recovery is very bad and you should be able to gimp him every time he attempts to use it, but I don't recommend contesting his side-B offstage. It's super quick and spikes you, so if you mess up it puts Yoshi in a very bad position and completely shifts the positional advantage to Falco.

Yoshi should usually be killing Falco with u-air around 120% and up-smash around 145%, possibly f-smash at 100% if you get a hard read. Falco should be killing Yoshi with b-air and up-smash at around 150%. His d-smash isn't much of a kill move if DI'ed right and his f-smash should only hit you if you are careless (it has a large hitbubble that extends behind and above him, so be careful.

Basically, play smart and play safe. Know your safe zones and your position relative to Falco. You should do just fine playing cautiously and patiently.

 

[Sharky]

if you're confident with it, he's at a high %, and you know falco is trying to spotdodge your cg, DR f-smash. Yay.

 

[Poltergust]

That's really risky, though. Falco's spot-dodge is just as fast as Yoshi's, and if you miss then you're going to eat his own f-smash.

 

[Yikarur]

then charge an upsmash, if you miss the timing your attack gets shielded and you, at worse, eats a grab which isn't critical at mid high%. (upsmash OoS Hurts though D: )

 

[Delta-cod]

I always charge Usmash at KO percents. It usually works a couple times, and when they're concerned with it, they won't spotdodge so you have more leeway with the CG.

Condition condition.

 

[Z'zgashi]

So are we done with this discussion...?

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Uhhh seems like it nothing news being said. Also you guys do know he can jab us out of cg about as fast as he can Spotdodge right?

 

[Airborne]

Uhhh seems like it nothing news being said. Also you guys do know he can jab us out of cg about as fast as he can Spotdodge right?

^^^ This. This is why we have to force them to guess between jabbing and spotdodging, since dash grab still beats jab.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Well, number time I guess: http://www.smashboards.com/group.php?groupid=2360

 

[clowsui]

I agree with most of it, changes in bold.

Also the chain grab on falco is not that hard. When you see falco then just hit dash and grab and it buffers it... You have 10 Frames to buffer it. It's Not That Hard. >_>

The only falco's I've played recently were approaching me instead of the other way around, so I'll wait a while to give a ratio.

Is this the secret? Have fun in loser's bracket

 

[Airborne]

Is this the secret? Have fun in loser's bracket

Arrogance. I scoff at you. By the way, if you're going to post, then actually provide on some input on the MU, rather than being like half of these boards and just trolling.

 

[Deleted member]

Hi im airborne and i dont kno how to play super smash bros bawrle

 

[hadesblade]

Is this the secret? Have fun in loser's bracket

Yes the secret to beating a character that you outcamp is to not approach... go figure.

I don't get the losers bracket comment =/

 

[clowsui]

xD @ Hades. I genuinely thought that Yoshi could at least put a halt to my camping due to damage trades. I was also just kidding around and implying that once we met in bracket you'd be the one in loser's, not me

Also, I just played MX this weekend. Honestly once Falco gets in the close range and does jab mix ups it's really ****ing hard for Yoshi to do jack ****. Falco also has a nice time chilling on the ledge and pulling off a ledge trap. Yoshi living forever is a problem for Falco though + the fact that he has grab release shenanigans and general nonsensical BS like a devil's spotdodge and some really nice aerial mobility (despite the fact that he's a dino). I think the MU's somewhere around 6:4 Falco. Falco Side B is also kind of an issue for Yoshi but by playing position games you can easily make the Flaco scurred

 

[Z'zgashi]

@air mobility part: Thats cuz yoshi ate the koopa with the blue shell.

 

[Delta-cod]

The whole camp thing sort of depends on how the Falco is camping. It's very possible to time eggs to hit him as he's firing a laser. Typically, I'll just camp until I'm out of CG percents, and then try to work some offense in. Once I reach really high percents, I'll just sit back and trade lasers with eggs, since percent doesn't really matter at that point to me.

 

[Airborne]

The more eggs he reflects, the sooner we're out of CG %'s. ;D

 

[hadesblade]

Falcos jab is so annoying ><. But if you play the matchup several times and focus on getting lasers out and being on the ground to pshield them when they get to you, you can outcamp us pretty solidly. Your bair is probably your best kill move because spaced it beats our common options from the air.

 

[Z'zgashi]

What percent does falcos cg end?

 

[hadesblade]

We can nair out in the late 30's.

 

[Yikarur]

and even then Falco can easiliy shield grab.

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

Does Shield grab have enough range to get us while we're moving away after we did a nair?

 

[Airborne]

The % I prefer to be at is like high-40's or w/e just so we have a bit of breathing room after a dthrow (I think he can't land the dthrow->dair spike around that %).

In other words, wait until throw->spike doesn't work anymore. ;O