ZSS General Discussion

[Deathfox30]

You can also start the infinite from a D smash but it's a lot more likely to get a grab when he's near a tire than a D smash.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

You can also start the infinite from a D smash but it's a lot more likely to get a grab when he's near a tire than a D smash.

Cool, thanks. there's also a couple of Warios around here, so it'd be good to know.

Though really, I see the point of learning infinites to be primarily for getting a decent basis for control first and for the slim chance of pulling it off second. That and just learning all this is fun :-D

 

[infiniteV115]

Don't know if this has already been discovered or not, but...

I was just practicing the infinite on ROB and trying to get it to work, and I found out that if you dsmash --> footstool --> dair --> paralyzer (uncharged of course), it forces him into a get-up animation. I verified by putting the training mode CPU on control mode, and it got up right away on its own (rather than waiting for a few seconds and then getting up). I then tried holding left and right as soon as the paralyzer hit ROB, but he still got up (didn't roll).

So if he really is forced into a get-up (I'm like 99% sure he is) then we have a dsmash --> footstool --> dair --> paralyzer infinite. The upside to this is that it seems a lot easier (it's a lot more slow-paced) than the other way of doing this infinite (you don't have to worry about quick pivots or quick dsmashes, you can just charge a dsmash after the paralyzer and let go during the get-up).

One downside would be if the paralyzer is SDIable to an extent that would prevent the dsmash from hitting them (extremely doubtful).

The other (and more significant) downside is the timing window. We need to find out how many invincibility frames ROB has during his get-up animation, and the frame total of said animation. eg If the total animation was 40 frames, and he was invincible during frames 2-25, we'd know that we have 15 frames in which to land a dsmash before he can shield.

I really hope this thing works. I already tried dsmashing during the non-invincibility frames of his get-up, it doesn't seem that hard, but maybe I'm just awesome.

Oh, this forced get-up also helped me find two flashy ways to kill.
Dsmash --> footstool --> dair --> paralyzer --> sideB right away (both hits)
'' '' '' '' --> walk away and sideB the get-up.

I prefer the latter. Not only is it a hilariously humiliating way to finish the infinite, there's no risk of them SDIing the first hit of sideB to avoid the second. Only downside (again) would be the timing window, but I did it just fine.

 

[Dakpo]

hmmm Footstool dair lazer?

 

[Tesh]

i love jab locking with paralyzer. You guys are so lucky, because it freezes them before it goes the bounce. Way better advantage.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It's confirmed to work. (footstool > dair > paralyzer) Old too, but thanks for your contribution!

I dunno what Tesh said but it's probably something dumb and moronic so I'm not gonna reply =D
Woop blocklist!

 

[Deathfox30]

I'm always scared they'll SDI the paralyzer and I won't be able to D Smash him again. He should be able to SDI enough to avoid it.

Btw, I'm pretty sure people can SDI the first hit of side B. I've played people who SDI'd down and tech'd it before. Our Best kill option would be D smash x2 > Bair

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can only SDI down if you're in the air, thus SDI'ing the first hit down and teching is impossible if the opponent is grounded.
You can SDI/DI up or something and it will avoid the second hit though, happens every so often to me =(

No you can't SDI the paralyzer enough, Dsmash is HUGE.

 

[Deathfox30]

People can SDI IC's hobbling enough to force a running regrab. They should be able to SDI away from us enough that they can shield a walking D smash.

But if they don't SDI at all we can do Paralyzer > D smash > D smash

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

You can walk DSmash there's enough time

 

[infiniteV115]

Btw, I'm pretty sure people can SDI the first hit of side B. I've played people who SDI'd down and tech'd it before. Our Best kill option would be D smash x2 > Bair

Again, dsmash --> footstool --> dair --> paralyzer --> walk away and sideB the get-up. You can get far enough so that you'll only hit with the tip of the sideB, so you don't have to worry about them SDIing the first hit. You really have a lot of time to do this. When I say walk away and sideB, I don't mean run, I mean walk. Hell, you could probably crawl and make it in time. By the time they can shield, ZSS can probably run all the way across FD. Not an exaggeration.

Also, scratch what I said about SDIing the paralyzer making this not work. If there's enough time to walk away and hit with the tip of sideB, there'll be enough time to walk to their new location (after they SDI the paralyzer) and dsmash.

 

[Deathfox30]

Our best kill option out of it is still going to be Bair since we can get in 3 d smashes first. Or maybe Uair since we could probably do 4 D smashes then jump and Uair them.

And yeah, I doubt anyone is going to be SDIing out of this since it would require A LOT of SDI to get far enough away (although still possible) but SDIing off the edge might work if they're close enough.

We should also be able to lock them with F tilt and Dash attack after the paralyzer until mid percents which would make our D smash less stale.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Ftilt/dash attack too unreliable without percentage data.

 

[Dakpo]

Our best kill option out of it is still going to be Bair since we can get in 3 d smashes first. Or maybe Uair since we could probably do 4 D smashes then jump and Uair them.

.

will never happen

 

[infiniteV115]

Dakpo, I think he means 1 dsmash between the paralyzer and the get-up (it won't freeze them), then 3 after the get-up (first will freeze).

And yeah, the sideB is just for being a flashy **** really.

And about having enough time to run across FD, you only have enough time to run across about 80% of it. That's still a lot of time though XD

 

[Deathfox30]

Yeah. One D smash during the forced get up then 3 after the invincibility frames wear off.

If you wanna be flashy do D smash > Footstool > Bair

 

[TeeVee]

sup guys


my zss is **** :s

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Mine's above average.

Guys.
How do i fight against TL?

I'm having problems. Projectiles everywhere, and even if i instant toss it away, i get hit with a boomerang or some ****.
Help.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

Powershield stuff.

Uair him when he has no bomb.
Don't use dsmash or sideB as spacers or anything.
If he has a bomb and is close to the ground enough for a jump>uair then you can try going for that.

It's waaaay annoying. We can grab release > fair him though, that nets some kills.

 

[Dakpo]

Dakpo, I think he means 1 dsmash between the paralyzer and the get-up (it won't freeze them), then 3 after the get-up (first will freeze).

And yeah, the sideB is just for being a flashy **** really.

And about having enough time to run across FD, you only have enough time to run across about 80% of it. That's still a lot of time though XD

Oh lol XD im out of context then , my apologizes

 

[Braxton2011]

Mine's above average.

Guys.
How do i fight against TL?

I'm having problems. Projectiles everywhere, and even if i instant toss it away, i get hit with a boomerang or some ****.
Help.

Powershield everything that is a projectile except bomb, catch that ****.

 

[Dakpo]

Powershield everything that is a projectile except bomb, catch that ****.

Yup, just what he said

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Well, i mean i do that, and then i get tricked into shielding.

But if i don't shield than i get usmashed

and if i don't powershield i get zaired

and if i get zaired i get usmashed

and if i airdodge i get uaired... and if i don't.

I'm going crazy.

 

[NickRiddle]

Just uair whenever tl is close. Or bair. Shield if he is pulling something far, and hit him for pulling stuff close. If he zairs close, you are DIing away from up smash.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Okay.

Now, TL is on a platform above me. He has a bomb sitting next to him and he's in shield.
What do i do?

Lurk and Bair?

 

[Zero]

Crawl underneath and psyche him out.

 

[Nefarious B]

Has anyone tried using down b to edgeguard vertical recoveries like Peach's up b, mario's, even marth's? My thought is that the attacks will either clash or we will hit them first (since our attack is stupid huge), and that trade is gonna knock us upwards in general while they will either get stage spiked or knocked to the underside of the stage. Of course if they tech our kick then we're in a pretty bad position if the attacks didn't trade

The spacing I'm talking about is down b kick from the stage, aim the kick towards the stage and kick just as you're about to grab the ledge, trying to hug the stage as best as possible.

I think this could help us a lot for edgeguarding people with vertical recovery, which we usually just hope they mess up and run into dsmash. Marth especially, since down b lasts long enough to cover an instant up b and a dancing blade stall

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

They can usually just stall our kick out as soon as they see the jump.

Or they tech it and we're ****ed.

 

[Nefarious B]

I have a feeling we trade with Marth's up b though, and since we're coming from on top of him it'll be the weak vertical hit, which will knock us back above the stage. Needs to be tested but if it does trade then we're not ****ed at all, and have a chance at a gimp if they don't tech it.

I don't think Marth's side b stall lasts long enough to outlast our kick though

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

It does. Marth's upB goes way far.

 

[PEACE7]

I don't think it will trade the only time I could see it trading is if you time it so that marth's upB is no longer in its start up invincibility frames but at its landing lag. But if the marth recovers low enough he might be quick enough to not get hit by the downB at all also if the marth holds back and as soon as marth's hand is almost touching the ledge he presses upB he has invincibility frames through all that his upB wont come out at all when he does that he will only get those invincibility frames

 

[Deathfox30]

This works well against Peach IME. I've also stage spiked Marth with it and it usually trades. idk about Mario.

 

[Dr. Tuen]

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=121940

This is a documentation of my first event as Zero Suit! It was mixed... I did a lot of bad things, but some things turned out well. Like the dsmash to footstool on Falco :-D. Any commentary on here or in that blog would be helpful! Thanks!

 

[Deathfox30]

You won't get much help until you have the videos up. Yes, you can put your replays on an SD card and record them by using a screen recorder program and brawl running on an emulator, but your computer can't be a complete pile of **** or you'll drop too many frames.

Also, what do you mean by D smash to footstool...? The gimp or the ground lock with Dair?

And if you're getting aura sphere'd it's probably because you try to down B/air dodge onto the stage.

 

[infiniteV115]

Just adding on to everything I said earlier, paralyzer will also force a get-up if they hit the ground after an edge slip. I figured this out because I like Battlefield XD

Speaking of which, on what stages do you guys think ZSS generally does well on? I really like Battlefield just because I seem to be good at applying platform pressure. I hate Lylat because items are lost and lasers are useless because of the shape of the stage + tilting. I'd probably like RC as well, but I don't think I know the stage well enough (yet) for it to be a safe CP.

And do any of you hate Frigate? I don't really, but I've SDed there, costing me sets in tournies. I'm sure that'll happen less often as long as I get in some practice on that stage

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

This weekend i attended a tourney that had RC banned. I found myself banning frigate every set. I don't mind frigate, but i feel we have better game play on other stages. Personally, my favorite CP is halberd. There's room to run, platforms to play with, area to recover, low ceilings, and the first transformation is my favorite, because you can use Side B when someone is on the ledge and when you're hanging from the ledge you have many options.

The only character i dont bring here is snake.

 

[infiniteV115]

Lol I just realized that I sharked an MK on Brinstar with the back hit of my nair
I'm so good XD

 

[Dr. Tuen]

You won't get much help until you have the videos up. Yes, you can put your replays on an SD card and record them by using a screen recorder program and brawl running on an emulator, but your computer can't be a complete pile of **** or you'll drop too many frames.

Also, what do you mean by D smash to footstool...? The gimp or the ground lock with Dair?

And if you're getting aura sphere'd it's probably because you try to down B/air dodge onto the stage.

Yeah, I'll get those up at some point, my computer should be powerful enough. We'll see how it goes.

Oh, I meant the gimp. Dsmash --> footstool --> edgehog. How does it ground lock?

Yeah, I agree on the recovery thing. I'm just petrified of recovering closer to edge level... else I'd face getting the edge taken from me.

 

[#HBC | ZoZo]

I'll get to you in a sec Tuen.

On stages, Frigate is definitely one of our worst. Brinstar can be pretty bad too.
I don't like Halberd because of the slope, but it's cool besides that imo. I still prefer BF and if they ban and I have no character specific CP I'll got SV/FD *dat euro mindset*

Well, spacing is just a matter of getting used to it. Can't really help you there.

Close up game I think I've talked about before, it's awkward and weird as ****.

Get some vids up and try to hit me up one of these days if you'd like. AiB, a PM, whatever, I'll probably have time for your questions =o

 

[infiniteV115]

Uh, ZSS has a dsmash lock on Falco just like she does on Fox, except with Fox it goes to like...I don't know somewhere from 70-100 (that's where it ends, you start the dsmash @ 0 and chain til that range).
Not as long for Falco, think it goes to like 40 something. Not sure. Same goes for Wolf, and possibly a few others.

As for the dsmash ground lock with dair that Deathfox30 was talking about, he might have been talking about ROB (dsmash footstool dair infinite). Perhaps he didn't realize you were playing a Falco. If he did, I don't know wtf he was talking about XD