KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
double post
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- Thread starter t3h Icy
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KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
Yea I kno haha. You guys really need to work on your power of persuasion. Can you believe I got Umbreon, Taj, and Vectorman to agree with me. Those guys are soo dumb omg. They dont know **** about Mewtwo or Zelda. They didnt even win Pound 4.
jiggz 55 marth 45
SleepyK
Banned via Administration
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 5,871
pending on how close jiggs is to marth as he fsmashes, you have more than ample time to wd oos or just jump.fun fact: if jigglypuff rolls toward marth just as he fsmashes, she has a large period of time in which she can rest him before he can move again. (i don't have SDM's frame data on hand but it was around an 8-10 frame window)
mike g tricks from 05
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
@druggedfox: for someone who ive only heard of in the last couple weeks, you are a phenomenal poster. good job, thanks for pointing out fallacies along with counterexamples.
@BigWenz: thanks for posting jman videos. always good.
@Mahone: you do an excellent job of arguing with the arrogance of someone who is wrong and doesnt know it while being pretty accurate. <3
@Everyone: When posting videos trying to explain that character A has a huge advantage over character B, one player beating a player of similar level by a big margin isn't really convincing. I find a video like M2K demolishing Mango's falcon more convincing than one of, like, zhu v silent spectre. they're at about the same level so now and then zhu is going to have a good game against SS. If you're using players of approximately the same skill level as a representative that a match is skewed heaveily (say 60:40 or more), you should tabulate and report their entire tournament history. If Zhu beats SS almost every time, that's evidence that falco dominates falcon. A solid 1-stock is not evidence of that.
@BigWenz: thanks for posting jman videos. always good.
@Mahone: you do an excellent job of arguing with the arrogance of someone who is wrong and doesnt know it while being pretty accurate. <3
@Everyone: When posting videos trying to explain that character A has a huge advantage over character B, one player beating a player of similar level by a big margin isn't really convincing. I find a video like M2K demolishing Mango's falcon more convincing than one of, like, zhu v silent spectre. they're at about the same level so now and then zhu is going to have a good game against SS. If you're using players of approximately the same skill level as a representative that a match is skewed heaveily (say 60:40 or more), you should tabulate and report their entire tournament history. If Zhu beats SS almost every time, that's evidence that falco dominates falcon. A solid 1-stock is not evidence of that.
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
players of equal skill is different than Taj vs random Zelda A
yeah ima have to change my mind about matchups after playing m2k for like 20 hours straight
Falcon beats marth , marth can win on foD or yoshi
jiggs beats marth, marth cant combo off his basic spacing jiggs kills marth faster than marth can kill jiggs
Marth can win on a small stage though like yoshis
Falcon beats marth , marth can win on foD or yoshi
jiggs beats marth, marth cant combo off his basic spacing jiggs kills marth faster than marth can kill jiggs
Marth can win on a small stage though like yoshis
yeah ima have to change my mind about matchups after playing m2k for like 20 hours straight
Falcon beats marth , marth can win on foD or yoshi
jiggs beats marth, marth cant combo off his basic spacing jiggs kills marth faster than marth can kill jiggs
Marth can win on a small stage though like yoshis
Falcon beats marth , marth can win on foD or yoshi
jiggs beats marth, marth cant combo off his basic spacing jiggs kills marth faster than marth can kill jiggs
Marth can win on a small stage though like yoshis
idea
Smash Master
haha really? i figured i didn't invent that but i'd never heard of anyone else doing it at the time.
yeah, i always ban that. stupid tippers
Mahone
Smash Champion
Honestly, we should just put jiggs marth at even and move on to other ****
dashdancedan
Smash Journeyman
Just noticing, but how is Fox v Samus even?
PB&J
Smash Hero
hbk vs hbox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCZxiJeuRok
hbk didnt win but he had good spacing and aerial camped both games..i think its even..looks like he does better than m2k does
hbk didnt win but he had good spacing and aerial camped both games..i think its even..looks like he does better than m2k does
Pi
Smash Hero
Cause foxes don't like to camp
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
Anyone else think Fox vs Puff is even. Did anyone else notice when Jman applied everything we all say makes Fox beats Puff he still lost every match to Hungrybox? He tried running away and camping, and then approaching with aerials and mixed up and got beat. He tried controlling the space in the middle of the stage and he still got beat. I think this idea that Fox beats Puff is outdated and simply not true in the current metagame.
llamapaste
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Aug 4, 2009
- Messages
- 430
Hungrybox is a better player than JMan. I thought he held up well.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
I don't mean to be offensive but getting 6-0'd really isn't holding up well. It just seems like Jigs has a counter for whatever fox throws at her.
And I think running away and laser camping is a bad idea, it put you closer to ledge meaning jigs only has to hit you once to edge guard you to death; Even Jman gave up on that after a while. And if you're going to try and compete with her in the middle of the stage then she beats you, she can combo you better than you combo her.
And I think running away and laser camping is a bad idea, it put you closer to ledge meaning jigs only has to hit you once to edge guard you to death; Even Jman gave up on that after a while. And if you're going to try and compete with her in the middle of the stage then she beats you, she can combo you better than you combo her.
It shouldn't be. Fox does work on Samus.
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
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- 1,861
I've never seen Hugs lose to a fox main in tournament(Lovage and Lucky have never taken a set form him iirc). Also PC's Fox lost to IHSB and then he switched to Marth and whip him. I know this isn't proof of much, I'm just pointing out that I've never seen a pro fox go to work on a pro Samus.
Well I was being stale with that last post.
I just see Fox as a harder opponent because of him mainly killing upward easily. Samus pretty much needs to be on the ground for her to at least be able to try in this matchup. Fox has Up smash and Uair to keep Samus off the ground. Also Fox can easily rack damage if he just camps lasers and avoid any missles being shot at him. I might be going by personal experience (Which I probably shouldn't be doing)..
Anyway I haven't seen any Samus lose to Fox. But I haven't really been focusing on that matchup either.
Meh... My POV is probably flawed anyway..
How do the other Samus players feel about that matchup though?
I just see Fox as a harder opponent because of him mainly killing upward easily. Samus pretty much needs to be on the ground for her to at least be able to try in this matchup. Fox has Up smash and Uair to keep Samus off the ground. Also Fox can easily rack damage if he just camps lasers and avoid any missles being shot at him. I might be going by personal experience (Which I probably shouldn't be doing)..
Anyway I haven't seen any Samus lose to Fox. But I haven't really been focusing on that matchup either.
Meh... My POV is probably flawed anyway..
How do the other Samus players feel about that matchup though?
Niko45
Smash Master
It's actually after playing Hbox that I've started to feel Jiggs is even more broken than I ever felt before. I was very impressed with Hbox as a player he had great spacing and mindgames but he was just putting on a clinic of all the tools Jiggs has and he has so many rest tricks its pretty incredible. He's definitely taken Jiggs way beyond what Mango has (Mango is still the better player obviously, but Hbox has definitely found some Jiggs specific tricks that are incredible).
Jman is an incredible player to be getting 6-0'd by anybody should really be saying something there.
Jman is an incredible player to be getting 6-0'd by anybody should really be saying something there.
unknown522
Some guy
matchups vs falcon IMO:
fox v falcon = 6-4
falco v falcon = 65-35
sheik v falcon = 65-35
marth v falcon = 50-50
jiggs v falcon = 55-45
fox v falcon = 6-4
falco v falcon = 65-35
sheik v falcon = 65-35
marth v falcon = 50-50
jiggs v falcon = 55-45
t3h Icy
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jun 12, 2009
- Messages
- 4,917
Updated:
Falco 65:35 Falcon
Fox 65:35 Falcon
Jigglypuff 55:45 Marth
Jigglypuff 60:40 Sheik
Still Discussing:
Falcon 55:45 or 50:50 Marth?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon?
Sheik 60:40 Falcon?
Scar, Hax and Mango have all suggested Fox and Falco are Falcon's hardest match-ups, and most people seem to agree with them around that area. I may change either to 60:40 if other players think otherwise. Likewise with Jigglypuff/Marth, people are aiming around ~52:48, so I rounded upward.
If you disagree, I can always change them back.
Falco 65:35 Falcon
Fox 65:35 Falcon
Jigglypuff 55:45 Marth
Jigglypuff 60:40 Sheik
Still Discussing:
Falcon 55:45 or 50:50 Marth?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon?
Sheik 60:40 Falcon?
Scar, Hax and Mango have all suggested Fox and Falco are Falcon's hardest match-ups, and most people seem to agree with them around that area. I may change either to 60:40 if other players think otherwise. Likewise with Jigglypuff/Marth, people are aiming around ~52:48, so I rounded upward.
If you disagree, I can always change them back.
Many of the games were last hits and all of them were last stock, just that Hungrybox is the better player (if only slightly), which can switch who has the advantage.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
every match was last stock but thats neither here nor there
whats interesting after watching the matches is that, when jman camped the edges (as he was doing in wf and first parts of Gf) he was doing relatively worst. always trailing stocks count or at best even.
when he tried controlling the middle and mixed it with flyby nairs and the occasional laser pressure, he was leading the entire game by a full stock, but hbox made a good comeback.
i dunno why im typing all this, i guess its to say that when jman "ran away and camped" he almost never had the lead, or only minimaly. when he comtrolled centre, he had his best play of the entire tourny.
edit: after reading your second post on the matter, i have to disagree.
jiggs doesnt have "an answer" for everything you do as fox, lol she isnt marth. She has a few tricks and a great bair, but that hardly constitues having a concrete response for everything, other than 'outspace fox".
and fox can EASILY match jiggs on damage output fighting toe to toe so i dont know where you got "she combos you better' from, they both kinda "combo" each other pretty mediocrely
idea
Smash Master
sounds good.
Druggedfox
Smash Champion
Hmm, why do you say falcon has a harder time with falco than falcon? I'm just curious, because I've always felt the reverse. Falcos lasers never give falcon real trouble, and he's one of the character that has many options to get in on falco. That + easier edgeguarding has always made me feel like fox does better than falco in the matchup (though falco obviously still has the advantage)
Niko45
Smash Master
The problem with fighting in the center of the stage is that Jiggs is still a threat to kill you at any moment with rest. No characer in the game dominates the entire stage and off stage game like Jiggs does.
PB&J
Smash Hero
falcon does good vs falco now
ss vs shiz
hax vs lambchops
65/35
i say 55/45
ss vs shiz
hax vs lambchops
65/35
i say 55/45
Merkuri
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Apr 1, 2010
- Messages
- 1,861
Jigs kind of does have an answer for everything fox does. That isn't to say that Jigs can counter whatever Fox does but she has a method for neutralizing every counter fox can produce. In short I'm saying there is nothing Fox can do that will always give him an edge of Puff.
You simply don't know what you're talking about when you say they both combo each other mediocrcrely. The only combo Fox has on Jigs is nar, to nair to more nairs if Jigs doesn't DI. From any point in the stage Jigs an string a single fair or bair to a wall of pain and force Fox off the stage, which should results in Fox's death. I'm not saying Jigs ***** Fox head on, I'm just saying she has the advantage there. If you disagree with that then please explain why.
You forgot Pound 4 Zhu whupping SS and Darkrain. And Shiz beat SS in case you forgot.
I'd say it's 60/40
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Fix'd. Because Zhu and PP destroy Falcons.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
You throw around so many generalizations thats its impossible to draw anything significant from your post.
First paragraph, "jiggs has a method for neutalizing every counter fox can produce"
You make it sound like anything fox does, jiggs can read and counter on REACTION. This just simply isnt true. I agree in theory that a simple answer to a nair approach is for jiggs to wd back->punish. Problem is, just because its possible doesnt mean its viable ALL THE TIME.
Basically, what im saying is, you cant just say "jiggs can counter all of foxs approachs" because that is a blanket statement that implies its black-and-white. Truth is, jiggs cant just counter it everytime and your generalizations are terrible and make your arguement seem stronger than it is in reality.
Lol you're kidding me if you think any single fair or bair leads into wall of pain
you're completely ignoring CC mechanics, and the fact that fox's fall speed means he cant realiably be Wop'd until higher percents or if his jump is jacked.
Fortress | Sveet
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m2k, bob$, me, and many other marths with vouch for this
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
I've always been a proponent of the Falcon slightly > Marth theory. I can dig 55:45.
KAOSTAR
the Ascended One
@jpobs-I didn't read your post or merc's but right after
"jiggz haas a counter" it says something like not saying jiggz can counter everything.
just sayin
"jiggz haas a counter" it says something like not saying jiggz can counter everything.
just sayin
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Even Yoshi! ^^ *sigh* if only! <33
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Nah. Vman is a beast at this game. ICG is not.
V3ctorMan
Smash Champion
Awww, it's not like that, well at least I don't try to be =/ it's just uhhh.. idk, I guess I believe Yoshi should get more credit ^^ but maybe I'm delusional... You may be right ;_;
Yayyy! <3 ChivalRuse <3
You know what would make yoshi not suck balls? The ability to jump out of sheild. 3 games in and they NEVER let him have it.
HI TIM ^(^_^)>
HI TIM ^(^_^)>
Fortress | Sveet
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have you even played ICG? his corngames are impeccable
I've seen him accurately predict brinstar depths for entire matches without messing up
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