Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[V3ctorMan]

You know what would make yoshi not suck balls? The ability to jump out of sheild. 3 games in and they NEVER let him have it.

HI TIM ^(^_^)>

heh what's up! You ever predict I'd play Yoshi competitively?!?!? I sure didn't ^^

@animal - I agree, he's underrated ^^

Hope I can keep continuing Yoshi's game n_n

 

[KAOSTAR]

have you even played ICG? his corngames are impeccable

I've seen him accurately predict brinstar depths for entire matches without messing up

idk if you are joking. corn games?

predict brinstar?

 

[KrazyKnux]

I agree with V3ctorMan. Yoshi is the business.

Btw, have you attended any tournies and gone straight Yoshi? He's my low tier of choice, so I'm trying to get some more material to learn from. Other than your vids, all there is are real old vids of Fumi lol.

 

[unknown522]

Hmm, why do you say falcon has a harder time with falco than falcon? I'm just curious, because I've always felt the reverse. Falcos lasers never give falcon real trouble, and he's one of the character that has many options to get in on falco. That + easier edgeguarding has always made me feel like fox does better than falco in the matchup (though falco obviously still has the advantage)

he gets shut down by lasers hard. They intercept moves a lot, and stop his movement (which is pretty much all he has in matchups). His better moves have too much startup and easily get intercepted. His n-air is supposed to be his most reliable move, but can easily get CC'd, or beaten outright. Falco also gets long combos on falcon off of pretty much any random hit. It also sucks that falcon doesn't really benefit much from PSing falco's lasers as well, because his grab is too short and his other moves besides n-air starts up too slow.

His approach, defense, edgeguarding, and combos are overall much better than falcon's.

 

[ChivalRuse]

have you even played ICG? his corngames are impeccable

I've seen him accurately predict brinstar depths for entire matches without messing up

Corngames. Lol.

 

[otg]

Yoshi can jump oos in smash 64..... it's a big reason of why he's good in that game.

 

[Tamoo]

How do u jump oos in 64 with yoshi?

 

[Winston]

Yoshi's shield game in 64 is BEAST

His upsmash comes out instantaneously, his head is like invincible or something, the hitbox covers like a giant arc above and behind him, and it kills at pretty low percents.

Plus he can parry in that game... he can parry in melee too but it seems like it's harder.

 

[otg]

How do u jump oos in 64 with yoshi?

Step 1: Shield (this is a bad idea in smash 64, but we aren't here to discuss that)
Step 2: Press any of the 5 variations of the jump button
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: smoke TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

 

[JPOBS]

@jpobs-I didn't read your post or merc's but right after

"jiggz haas a counter" it says something like not saying jiggz can counter everything.

just sayin

yea but thats not sayig anything concrete at all.

talking about approaching, every character "has a counter" to anything fox does, and for most chars, it boils down to "dash dance away, then punish with *insert move*" and it works pretty **** well assuming you do it every time.

i mean everything in this game has a counter, why even say something like that?

 

[Tamoo]

Step 1: Shield (this is a bad idea in smash 64, but we aren't here to discuss that)
Step 2: Press any of the 5 variations of the jump button
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: smoke TREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEES

Hmm u was so sure you couldn't do this in 64, gonna have to try this out when I get back from work

 

[Druggedfox]

he gets shut down by lasers hard. They intercept moves a lot, and stop his movement (which is pretty much all he has in matchups). His better moves have too much startup and easily get intercepted. His n-air is supposed to be his most reliable move, but can easily get CC'd, or beaten outright. Falco also gets long combos on falcon off of pretty much any random hit. It also sucks that falcon doesn't really benefit much from PSing falco's lasers as well, because his grab is too short and his other moves besides n-air starts up too slow.

His approach, defense, edgeguarding, and combos are overall much better than falcon's.

***I mistyped. Last time I asked why falcon has a harder time with falco than FALCON. What I meant was "why do you say falcon has a harder time with falco than FOX.***

Hmm, the reason I question "shut down by lasers" is that most falcon players willfully counterpick either FD or Pokemon Stadium, even though Dreamland would give them a great way to avoid lasers and yoshi's story is small enough that falcon can take the entire stage in a full jump. For nairs, as long as you DI the nair back to hit with the tip (that is, after hitting with the first one) then the CC shouldn't get them anything, and in fact, if they try to CC shine you can come in with a grab when they miss.

Falco gets long combos... yeah pretty much no denying that. At the same time, my original question was how falco's really worse than fox. With fox's ability to turn any upsmash/tilt/u-air into a ridiculously easy string of moves leading to more % than most falco combos, I always felt like foxes combo game was at least as good, just less visually overwhelming. Falco Has to dair shine three times, into a fair-->fsmash let's say; fox upsmashes him three times in a row into a nair and followup if possible. In about 1/3 of the time fox probably got more or less the same damage.

 

[PB&J]

so what do u guys think about ganon vs falco..good ganons seem to be able to avoid lasers pretty good and if a big slow character like ganon can do it..how much easier would it be for falcon?

 

[Merkuri]

You throw around so many generalizations thats its impossible to draw anything significant from your post.

First paragraph, "jiggs has a method for neutalizing every counter fox can produce"
You make it sound like anything fox does, jiggs can read and counter on REACTION. This just simply isnt true. I agree in theory that a simple answer to a nair approach is for jiggs to wd back->punish. Problem is, just because its possible doesnt mean its viable ALL THE TIME.
Basically, what im saying is, you cant just say "jiggs can counter all of foxs approachs" because that is a blanket statement that implies its black-and-white. Truth is, jiggs cant just counter it everytime and your generalizations are terrible and make your arguement seem stronger than it is in reality.

Lol you're kidding me if you think any single fair or bair leads into wall of pain
you're completely ignoring CC mechanics, and the fact that fox's fall speed means he cant realiably be Wop'd until higher percents or if his jump is jacked.

You completely misread my post, which is your fault because I took effort to make it very clear. I don't how you're able to draw Jigs can counter anything Fox does on reaction, I've never said anything like that. What I was saying is that every tactic that Fox has which is suppose to make him beat Jigs, running arounf laser camping, running in shieliding with nair mix ups, etc; can be neutralized with Jigs, therefore there is nothing that is really giving Fox the edge on Jigs. You're the one make wild assumptions here, not me.

I said from anywhere in the stage Jigs can wall of pain you, not from every fair/bair(read before responding to posts man) this means that controlling space if far more important for Fox than it is for Jigs, since he's always at more risk of being pushed off the edge.

I wasn't even going to respond to this message but people were defending me so I thought I may as well. I still say that match up is 50:50

 

[JPOBS]

You completely misread my post, which is your fault because I took effort to make it very clear. I don't how you're able to draw Jigs can counter anything Fox does on reaction, I've never said anything like that. What I was saying is that every tactic that Fox has which is suppose to make him beat Jigs, running arounf laser camping, running in shieliding with nair mix ups, etc; can be neutralized with Jigs, therefore there is nothing that is really giving Fox the edge on Jigs. You're the one make wild assumptions here, not me.

I said from anywhere in the stage Jigs can wall of pain you, not from every fair/bair(read before responding to posts man) this means that controlling space if far more important for Fox than it is for Jigs, since he's always at more risk of being pushed off the edge.

I wasn't even going to respond to this message but people were defending me so I thought I may as well. I still say that match up is 50:50

the thing about being on reaction was just an example. I understand what you're trying to say, but i think its too too much of a blanket statement. Like, having a reasonable response to fox's tactics isnt unique to puff. All the top tier chars share this quality, thats what makes them good chars, having options to deal with what fox does. i know what your getting at but i still think its rather obviously and unnecessary to point out (furthermore, you havent exactly said what exactly these counters are but whatever)

What does it matter if Puff can WoP from anywhere on stage?
Fox can upsmash and upthrow upair from anywhere on stage, why is this even worth mentioning, im legitimately curious as to why this is important?
The reaosn i originally responded about every fair/bair beign a wop was because that was the only way i could see you trying to make an arguement (which i thought was wrong), i dont see how what you ACTUALLY meant matters at all....

 

[Pi]

so what do u guys think about ganon vs falco..good ganons seem to be able to avoid lasers pretty good and if a big slow character like ganon can do it..how much easier would it be for falcon?

I think it more comes down to that if ganon gets a hit, then predicts a tech, then gets another hit falco is most likely off stage, and dead.

Falcon on the other hand...he's gonna approach with nair, which doesn't really set up for anything till mid %'s. Or maybe he get's a bair off, which again doesn't really do him any good till higher %'s. If he gets a dair off he's alright, he can get a grab, then tech read, then maybe another hit after that.

Plus ganon's edgeguard on falco is better than falcon's I would say

 

[t3h Icy]

Still Discussing:

Falcon 55:45 Marth?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon?
Sheik 60:40 Falcon?

But let's throw in Peach now as well:

Peach vs Fox, Sheik, Falco, Marth, Jigglypuff and Falcon.

Peach-Falco 50-50
Peach-Fox 30-70
Peach- Shiek 40-60
Peach-Marth 40-60
Peach- Puff 45-55
Peach-CF 35-65

Also I'm going to a Smashfest this weekend, so I'll update when I get back. ^_^

 

[JPOBS]

Falcon on the other hand...he's gonna approach with nair, which doesn't really set up for anything till mid %'s.

if the nair lands and isnt cc'd, thats an auto grab.

i'd say thats a pretty big deal.

 

[PB&J]

u guys need to watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=212LZgkqLpA

i know its in falco's favor but not as much as people think

 

[Druggedfox]

Most falcons have no issue fighting falco (Hahaha, mango's opinion from falcon's side of the matchup).

Also, are armada's opinions NTSC or PAL?

I mean, either way, they seem a bit drastic. If peach fox was really 30:70, you'd seriously have to be significantly better than your opponent to ever win with peach in the matchup. I mean, fox beats peach pretty badly, no question. 70-30 is like a flat out counter though, and essentially says any competent fox player should be able to take down a peach, period. Has armada even lost to a fox in tournament?

Hmm, has anyone heard amsah talk about the paech sheik matchup? Amsah will maintain that peach beats sheik without a doubt, and that he's been trying to figure out how to beat armada's peach in the matchup for a long time. Even as for beating him at pound4, he'll tell you armada was pretty off and that he(amsah) would have lost otherwise.

Peach marth? Yeah no real objection.

Peach puff? Ditto.

Peach falcon? Hmm, I would cite bias but I'm not sure. Obviously falcon has the advantage, but peach has some nasty stuff on falcon, especially edgeguarding. I don't really have much to argue on any of these, as no one has presented reasons for their opinions, so I'll hold back on saying anything.

 

[john!]

IMO Marth is harder than Sheik. I'd bump Marth up to 65.

 

[KirbyKaze]

so what do u guys think about ganon vs falco..good ganons seem to be able to avoid lasers pretty good and if a big slow character like ganon can do it..how much easier would it be for falcon?

A lot of the strats that Ganon uses to anti-laser has to do with his fall speed, longer range, how his Uair works, and his jab. Falcon doesn't have these. A lot of what Ganons (okay, not really plural, more like Linguini but w/e) do to beat lasers is take the lasers and keep going; canceling their Fair with the laser and then immediately falling into Uair. Or crouching the lasers into jabs. The former doesn't work with Falcon because of his fall speed. The latter fails because his jab isn't as long and doesn't have the immediate knockback.

You can't really compare how the two handle lasers. They function too differently for you to really take a strat that works for Ganon and say, "Falcon's better than Ganon so he should be able to do this too!"

 

[Zoler]

Also, are armada's opinions NTSC or PAL?

I mean, either way, they seem a bit drastic. If peach fox was really 30:70, you'd seriously have to be significantly better than your opponent to ever win with peach in the matchup. I mean, fox beats peach pretty badly, no question. 70-30 is like a flat out counter though, and essentially says any competent fox player should be able to take down a peach, period. Has armada even lost to a fox in tournament?

Since Armada agrees that Peach has advatange over Sheik in PAL its probably NTSC?

Isn't the tier list supposed to show the balance at the top top level? No one really cares about the balance between mediocre players.

 

[KAOSTAR]

some of these numbers are a little dramatic.

70-30? thats about how hard mewtwo loses to marth(maybe 80-20)

we already have a decent chart in place, I thought that was suppose to help narrow it down. converting to numbers was something that was considered too hard/inaccurate before. now its like we are just starting over and wasted a few months worth of time.

if 70% of the arbitrary total is considered a slight advantage then mewtwo ***** zelda. she should almost never win.

I honestly think this is pointless if it doesn't build off what we spent months doing.

I know we haven't changed the official chart much, but everyone-please read the chart before you give numerical values. it helps keep everything in perspective and saves time.

 

[Merkuri]

some of these numbers are a little dramatic.

70-30? thats about how hard mewtwo loses to marth(maybe 80-20)

we already have a decent chart in place, I thought that was suppose to help narrow it down. converting to numbers was something that was considered too hard/inaccurate before. now its like we are just starting over and wasted a few months worth of time.

if 70% of the arbitrary total is considered a slight advantage then mewtwo ***** zelda. she should almost never win.

I honestly think this is pointless if it doesn't build off what we spent months doing.

I know we haven't changed the official chart much, but everyone-please read the chart before you give numerical values. it helps keep everything in perspective and saves time.

This is somewhat true. And another thing I really don't like is how the new numbers are contradicting what the chart previously said.

Before the numbers everyone agreed that a match up 55:45 should still be represented as equal. However the previous chart said that Fox > Shiek, and now the numbers are saying Fox 55:45 Sheik. The same thing applies to Fox vs Jigs and I think a few others.

 

[t3h Icy]

We likely will stop with numbers once we get to around Samus.

EDIT: Well if you wanted, we could get messy with numbers like 53:47 for Sheik/Fox. =/ Also I repeatedly said not to consider match-ups back then in numerical terms. The only time I used them previously was for making a base chart.

Also Armada said his numbers were for NTSC and not PAL, but they are skewed a bit.

 

[Druggedfox]

Since Armada agrees that Peach has advatange over Sheik in PAL its probably NTSC?

Isn't the tier list supposed to show the balance at the top top level? No one really cares about the balance between mediocre players.

I'm confused at your "isn't the tier list supposed to show..." I definitely agree with that; all I said was that if it was truly 70-30, then even the fox players like jman and lucky would honestly be destroying armada, unless either he knows the matchup 10x better than them, or is that much of a better player. Meaning competent foxes (good foxes that are a step below jman and lucky), according to a 70-30, could be clearly worse than the opposing peach and still play even/win. So with the knowledge that I don't recall armada losing to a single fox in tournament, I was confused as to how this reflects the current metagame.

 

[Merkuri]

I'm confused at your "isn't the tier list supposed to show..." I definitely agree with that; all I said was that if it was truly 70-30, then even the fox players like jman and lucky would honestly be destroying armada, unless either he knows the matchup 10x better than them, or is that much of a better player. Meaning competent foxes (good foxes that are a step below jman and lucky), according to a 70-30, could be clearly worse than the opposing peach and still play even/win. So with the knowledge that I don't recall armada losing to a single fox in tournament, I was confused as to how this reflects the current metagame.

Well Armada is a step above other Foxs. And if you flip your logic around I can't recall Jman or Lucky losing to any Peach players(besides Armada)

 

[V3ctorMan]

I agree with V3ctorMan. Yoshi is the business.

Btw, have you attended any tournies and gone straight Yoshi? He's my low tier of choice, so I'm trying to get some more material to learn from. Other than your vids, all there is are real old vids of Fumi lol.

hey sorry, I didn't see this post till now...

Sadly I haven't attended tourney's and played all Yoshi because I started playing Yoshi competetively about 3 months ago, and there haven't been any tourneys in my area... so my main method of practice is to play against Axe, Taj, and some of AZ's other premier players..

There's something about Yoshi, that I think people may be overlooking/underestimating... so I'm motivatin/determined to show what he's capable of... and it seems i'm gettin some success.. ^^ but i'm only going to keep pushing him further hopefully.. I'd like to be the best Yoshi, and perhaps change some opinions on him, and maybe even have some new players use him, but it's gonna be very tough!

On top of that interestingly enough, I "enjoy" playing with Yoshi, more than any of my other characters... even Mewtwo... so, to me it's always fun to keep playing the character(s) you have playing with, and at the same time stay competent. =)

EDIT: on an "ON TOPIC NOTE" Peach is difficult.. It'd be soo cool to play any of the known peaches with Yoshi! <3

 

[Merkuri]

@Vectorman: You could try going to Good **** German. It's a pretty big tournament that's just one state away form you. It starts tomorrow though.

 

[KAOSTAR]

We likely will stop with numbers once we get to around Samus.

EDIT: Well if you wanted, we could get messy with numbers like 53:47 for Sheik/Fox. =/ Also I repeatedly said not to consider match-ups back then in numerical terms. The only time I used them previously was for making a base chart.

Also Armada said his numbers were for NTSC and not PAL, but they are skewed a bit.

Lol it made sense not to use numbers back towards the beginning. It was trying to accureately pinpoint a MU out of 100.

vs saying its definitely within this range of say 10-15.

I also agree that stopping around samus is a good idea, there isnt enough data for mid and below.

I was just questioning the numbers that were being produced(no longer AR cuz of the admittance of skew) and just giving a reminder that ppl should really put some thought into their contributions and use the previous chart as a guide.


. If they arent consistent with our color qualitives(TM) then like 1/2 of the chart doesnt make sense. I think the color half is fairly accurate.


Most characters do not get utterly destroyed. Many are in the outter realm of slight advantage, or the inner realm of a definitive advantage. Only low tiers vs the top end up with large disadvantages. Ppl keep over exaggerating things like marths range vs puffs mobility. Making it seem like either attribute is superior to the point where 1 character can avoid damage all together while simultaneously inflicting 0-deaths combos at will.

-Maybe I just said the exact same thing, if so disregard lol. hopefully I said something different lol.-

 

[V3ctorMan]

@Vectorman: You could try going to Good **** German. It's a pretty big tournament that's just one state away form you. It starts tomorrow though.

Yeah, I actually "was" going to go to that with Axe, but both of us decided not to go.. Axe will be attending Apex, and the next tourney, we will both be attending SuperCon...and Rom3 is looking so far so good too

On a Side Note: I've been to two Irvine CA, tournaments, none of which turned out well for me... the first one, I can't even remember the name, but... there were tons of transportation problems... also, 2 of my best controllers, were misplaced/stolen, whichever... It's been hard to replace those..

Secondly was "Pat's House" when my Wallet with $311 dollars cash (Yeah I know i'm stupid for carrying that much cash) Military I.D., credit card(s) SS cards were all stolen from me as well...so obviously i couldn't even play at the tourney, for "depressed johns" I had only purchased one way tickets at the time, so purchasing tickets, with no wallet no $, was HELL..

So I'm a little afraid of California ^^ lol Ironic, cuz I was born there =p but I hope to attend more tournaments in the near future that's for sure ^^

 

[Smashjin]

Yeah, I actually "was" going to go to that with Axe, but both of us decided not to go.. Axe will be attending Apex, and the next tourney, we will both be attending SuperCon...and Rom3 is looking so far so good too

On a Side Note: I've been to two Irvine CA, tournaments, none of which turned out well for me... the first one, I can't even remember the name, but... there were tons of transportation problems... also, 2 of my best controllers, were misplaced/stolen, whichever... It's been hard to replace those..

Secondly was "Pat's House" when my Wallet with $311 dollars cash (Yeah I know i'm stupid for carrying that much cash) Military I.D., credit card(s) SS cards were all stolen from me as well...so obviously i couldn't even play at the tourney, for "depressed johns" I had only purchased one way tickets at the time, so purchasing tickets, with no wallet no $, was HELL..

So I'm a little afraid of California ^^ lol Ironic, cuz I was born there =p but I hope to attend more tournaments in the near future that's for sure ^^

Wow, that's some bad luck. Sorry that happened, man .

 

[V3ctorMan]

Wow, that's some bad luck. Sorry that happened, man .

Heh, yeah thanks man, n_n but all that's in the past. ^^ One thing that would make it ALL better is if all of you started playing Yoshi!

Now THAT'D be awesome! hehe <3333

BTW here's Vman's "fake MU Chart" in Vmanland!

Yoshi 55/45 > the rest of the cast! <------------ wouldn't that be something?!??!?!?!? <33

 

[idea]

that's terrible =/ the worst thing that ever happened to me at a tournament was that my melee disc was stolen at a NY tourney. but they didn't take my wii for some reason, even though someone else's wii was stolen.

also the only usable bathroom had no door. that was weird.

 

[Zone]

Yeah, I actually "was" going to go to that with Axe, but both of us decided not to go.. Axe will be attending Apex, and the next tourney, we will both be attending SuperCon...and Rom3 is looking so far so good too

On a Side Note: I've been to two Irvine CA, tournaments, none of which turned out well for me... the first one, I can't even remember the name, but... there were tons of transportation problems... also, 2 of my best controllers, were misplaced/stolen, whichever... It's been hard to replace those..

Secondly was "Pat's House" when my Wallet with $311 dollars cash (Yeah I know i'm stupid for carrying that much cash) Military I.D., credit card(s) SS cards were all stolen from me as well...so obviously i couldn't even play at the tourney, for "depressed johns" I had only purchased one way tickets at the time, so purchasing tickets, with no wallet no $, was HELL..

So I'm a little afraid of California ^^ lol Ironic, cuz I was born there =p but I hope to attend more tournaments in the near future that's for sure ^^

I'm freaking lucky then. I've had my wallet fall out of my pocket at like 3 tournaments in FL. And every time It was returned to me.

I can't believe people will steal... do they have no individuality/morals to work for their own ****?

EDIT:
It was so hot in FL recently a Homeless guy came up to my pepsi truck, and threatened to lie and report me for violating traffic laws to my company if I didn't give him a free water.

LoL >.>

 

[KAOSTAR]

vman's wallet vs smash community
30:70

that sucks major yoshi **** dude. I hope those people realize how much they suck.

 

[Druggedfox]

Well Armada is a step above other Foxs. And if you flip your logic around I can't recall Jman or Lucky losing to any Peach players(besides Armada)

The thing with flipping my logic around is that the difference between armada and jman =/= the difference between jman and a lower level peach. Jman is capable of placing high in any national/international tournament, while peach players haven't shown themselves to be capable of this skillwise. I'll take pound4 as a reference (the most recent international tournament).

Jman placed 5th, losing only to mango and amsah.

The only peach players who even got into brackets were MacD, vidjo, and vanz (who doesn't even play all peach). Iirc their combined win count added to maybe 1, or 2.

So flipping my logic around doesn't really work if you're not comparing the skill differences as well. (Of course not to say that macd vidjo or vanz are bad by any means at all.)

 

[KirbyKaze]

Peach isn't good LOL.

 

[rhan]

Peach isn't good LOL.

*Co-Signs.*