Match-Up Chart (Outdated); please refer to the new chart.

[Niko45]

Hey Jiggs players if you are losing to Marth try crouching.

I really can't get on board with the idea that peach has more offense than jiggs? Jiggs is a blink away from bairing you to death or tomahawk shield pressuring you into a rest. Jiggs range rivals Marth's with bair + aerial movement. There is no comparison between jiggs and peach vs Marth.

Make no mistake tho, Jiggs beats sheik way worse than she beats Marth.

 

[Rappster]

I could be wrong about this, didn't Ken go all marth for their 5 match set at MLG Vegas, which happened after OC2?

he went fox at least once and falcon at least once. and lost.

 

[KirbyKaze]

relearn the old spacing game, the shuffle-based marth combos, added with the new platform movement and new era mindgaming and retracting of shuffles that mango paved way for, and jiggs should be the one getting ***** in this matchup. theres always rest to worry about but once you've put thought into avoiding rest set-ups then it shouldn't be bad. spacie mains have a much harder time with rests but you don't see them complaining; mango showed fox can destroy jiggs and dr.pp showed falco can go toe-to-toe with even a jiggs like hbox's, even comboing jiggs to death.

Falco's combos vs Puff are derived from his ability to force techs because of his near-lagless Dair and move --> Dair combo. Marth can sort of do this, but his Dair is laggier, and Dair --> Dair with Marth isn't nearly as safe, good, or effective.

Air combos on the whole fail vs Puff because of her aerial mobility, weight, and floatiness. Falco cheats this whole system by setting up constant tech chases, and abusing the fact that despite how good her other anti-combo defenses are, Jigglypuff's got a small tech roll.

and marth shouldn't really be gimped since ALL his aerials outrange anything jiggs can do, just fair away jigglypuff when she comes at you like Ken used to do.

This strat is still viable, but the issue is that Jigglypuff has oodles of aerial mobility and can duck to force very predictable responses from Marth.

inherently this is in marths favor; this is more of a spacing based matchup and marth completely outranges jiggs, and is much faster. jiggs combos marth harder then marth can combo jiggs, but marth has decent combos too.

Jigglypuff can Bair --> Bair combo Marth, setup gimps, death combo him via launcher --> Rest, and Rest him out of his onstage lag if he ever has to Up+B.

There's a huge punishment disparity.

jigg's main ways of killing are gimps and rests, and both can be easily avoided.

Conveniently, we've forgotten that edgeguarding is largely one-way in this matchup. And Bair strings work fine vs Marth.

while marth has ways of killing that are just as good; well spaced or well timed fmashes at key percents, the classic forward-b -> uptilt//wavedash-fmash, and sometimes even spikes, these can be avoided too but because of marth's range and priority, the way the marth plays he dictates the way the matchup is played out so he has an easier time in the matchup, as long as the marth is patient.

The problem with what you're suggesting is that all of it can be beaten by Jigglypuff being patient because most of the kill setups are extremely punishable. If Marth waits and waits and waits and waits and waits for Jigglypuff to leave herself open and she never does and he tempts fate and goes for a grab or whatever, then he'll die.

Marth can't really go for these in the same way Jigglypuff can try to force situations she can Rest or setup an edgeguard out of.

a good example to bring up is mango vs m2k jiggs vs marth match on dreamland. m2k spaced so good for the first portion of the game that jiggs couldn't do ANYTHING. neither characters have projectiles so the matchup comes down to range, i can't stress this enough. but the main factor like i said before is patience. mango had a much tougher time getting inside m2k's spacing but he was very patient, even when his character is outspaced so bad. how much easier should it be for the person playing the longer-ranged character? but this hurts itself because since m2k has the better character, he lost patience and rushed in.

This match is 3 years old. Strategy has changed somewhat. For one, I don't think the Jigglypuff players work as hard to get in as they used to, since they've realized their Bair's range is something Marth needs to respect. If Marth aims his moves at Bair when Puff is Bairing, Puff loses. If Marth aims his move at Puff's Bair when Puff isn't Bairing, Puff gets advantage. If Marth aims his move at Puff when Puff is Bairing, it trades or loses. When you factor elements like Puff's superior aerial mobility in, you realize the spacing game isn't just a matter of "Marth, be more patient".

THE VERY SAME REASON why falco's never laser and let the worse character approach; they always aggressively rush in against characters who don't even have projectiles..... its because they are playing the better character and they forget about how important patience is

What does this have to do with Marth vs Jiggs?

why did shiz approach m2k on the ledge game 4 of rom? why do spacies, who have a percent lead on the last stock approach a ledge camping sheik//marth//jiggs? the very same reason.

What does this have to do with Marth vs Jiggs?

INSTEAD, whenever i'm in that situation against friends when i'm playing falco or fox, i sit on the middle of the stage, shoot little brother bullets, turn to my friend and tell them "i'm winning."

What does this have to do with Marth vs Jiggs?

 

[Laijin]

That picture is outdated.

huh.
shouldn't there be like a ton of oil in that picture? I think its still outdated..

 

[t3h Icy]

Updated:

Falco 50:50 Marth
Falco 55:45 Sheik
Fox 55:45 Jigglypuff
Sheik 60:40 Marth

I was a bit speedy with these so we can progress to Falcon, and if you feel I was too hasty, I can change them otherwise.

In Progress:
Jigglypuff ?:? Marth
Jigglypuff 55:45 Sheik?

Also, Falcon is up for discussion against the Top 5 now.

For those arguing about Marth outranging Jigglypuff, don't forget Jigglypuff has far superior aerial speed, which is very helpful with spacing, while Marth is faster on the ground.

Some posts from before about Falcon:

fox/falco - 65/35
spacies **** falcon but due to human limitations the matchup is much more even than it is in theory. fox ***** harder in theory and gets ***** harder practically while falco ***** less both in theory and in practice. therefore the fox matchup depends entirely on what the criteria are. it could go anywhere from 60/40 when considering human limitations to as far as 80/20 if fox plays completely technically with full mu knowledge

for the sake of a match-up chart i would argue that fox/falco both have a 65/35 matchup vs CF due to a reliable approach, hard punishes, little overall vulnerability, but fully capable of being killed from 1 hit consistently

sheik - 60/40
sheik has no approach vs cf. she punishes really hard and ***** the ****ing **** out of n00b CFs. any CF who has any idea what he's doing will say that sheik is not as hard as fox falco or jigglypuff unless it's experiencing m2k's sheik for the first time in which case the matchup is nearly impossible. cf also has no approach vs sheik but he has no approach vs anyone and punishes smaller mistakes than anyone, which is why it's definitely in sheik's favor, but solidly 60/40

marth - 55/45
marth beats falcon bc of safer approaches overall and guaranteed combos vs CF's non-guaranteed but more devastating punishes. edgeguarding falcon is very easy with marth and low% gimps are reliable if performed properly. falcon ***** bad marths but that shouldn't be considered. overall the matchup is close to even but a good marth vs a good falcon would be more/less a standoff since neither character should ever approach the other, but i'd give the edge to reliability and consistency over falcon's do-or-die style

jiggs - 65/35
good jiggs **** equally good falcons. it has been proven time and time again. bad jiggs lose to equally bad falcons, but that's irrelevant. jiggs doesn't die from knee at low enough %s if you factor in acceptable DI, dthrow knee doesn't reliably combo, dthrow can be rested out of at certain percentages, jiggs follows up her hits with combos and can combo into rest at low %s, falcon loses his combo game vs jiggs, jiggs edgeguards falcon with little to no risk even at low %s from a simple bthrow, falcon has no edgeguard vs jiggs

when played correctly the matchup isn't too bad (from what i've heard) but i've seen really good, patient falcons consistently lose very hard to equally good (or worse) jigglypuffs. my biases included maybe give it 60/40 to jiggs but you'd be stupid to put it at even or in falcon's favor.

tl;dr
SPACIES BEAT FALCON BUT NOT TOO BAD IN PRACTICE AS IN THEORY
SHEIK ISN'T THAT GOOD VS FALCON U R JUST DOING IT WRONG (m2k's skill > current falcon players's skill)
MARF BEATS FALCON
JIGGS BEATS FALCON

falcons matchups with the top 7 other than himself:

fox: -1
falco: -2
jiggs: -1
sheik: -1
marth: +1
peach: 0

scar is bad and his opinion doesnt matter

to elaborate:

fox is -1.5 i feel like vs the average foxes this matchup is easier than falco but vs the amazing ones (jman, lucky) its -2.5 and harder than falco. so i dunno what you guys are going by but i suppose at current top fox play this becomes falcon's hardest matchup. as mango said whats easier nairing the sh*t out of falcons shield or a grab followed by ridiculous tech reads? this is why i despise people who say falcon is broken and tell me my combos are ****ing auto when im outskilling them. when i'm on fire i feel like i can never lose this matchup (i **** jman when i'm playing my best) but that isnt very often

falco is -2 because he can come in having a bad day and **** u with very little skill required. it is once again a case of automatic + broken combos vs reading + broken combos; the former is the clear winner. the advantage keeping this from being impossible is that falco has no grab; he has lasers which are disgusting but the lack of a grab keeps this winnable

jiggs is prolly -2 also although i'm thinking jiggs might go down as PP might have discovered how to play vs her in which case i am confident in -1. i kind of feel like shes gimmicky as hell and will only get worse whereas falcon can only get better so i predict that this will be -1 in the future. but for right now the way we're playing makes it so that a single throw from jiggs kills us. as falcon players we are pressured to entertain which is why we go for stupid sh*t like grab -> knee (imo NEVER grab vs a grounded jiggs especially while facing her) when the real way to play the matchup is to beat her with bairs and nairs into uair strings and kill her at 120 with a bair. knee is so risky in this matchup

sheik: -1 or -2 to the average falcon, +1 or +2 to me. this matchup is actually sooo easy now but i can understand why people would fuss over it. i hated it for a good while too. to clarify: her dthrow bullsh*t does not work all you have to do is roll your cstick and not tech and you'll break out... think of it in the sense that both chars have no approach but falcon is faster and has a better DD. and if the falcon stays under 100% edgeguarding her is cake. i beat amsah in pound pools and i jv3 stocked plank this weekend as proof

marth: +1 or +2 even though most people think its even. a single dthrow can mean his death and as long as u stay in the middle of the stage he barely has anything on you. DD camp and wait for him to whiff aerials then grab, his approach sucks and hes the easiest high tier to edgeguard in the game

peach: 0 imo, +1 or +2 to the average falcon. armada makes me say this cause till i played him i would **** peaches, but seriously both chars **** each other combo-wise but peach has a gay projectile and a godly recovery. falcon has slightly better combos so its def not a losing matchup for him, but he barely wins it.

jiggs falcon: 50:50

[Puff] vs Falcon 55-45

 

[Merkuri]

Jigs is at least 60:40 Sheik.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'm just gonna say I agree with everything KK said in his last post.

I'd also like to add that although Marth can potentially get some low percent kills with f-smash, he has no good setups for it at actual kill percents.

And getting hit by a bair at about 60%+ is a lot more dangerous than people give credit for. That one hit forces Marth close to the ledge, where he'll have major difficulty maintaining his spacing. Even worse if it actually forces him ONTO the ledge (Marth doesn't really have good options from there in this matchup).

"Marth's fair and f-tilt outrange Jigg's bair, so you can wall them out indefinitely" is just a bull**** argument. How effectively does Marth wall out Fox? Or Falcon? Mobility is a very large aspect of spacing that people just don't seem to consider when talking about matchups.

 

[Crimson)S(hadow]

@KK: to give illustrations of the whole patience thing



marth vs falcon is +1 or +2 for falcon, at the very least it is 50:50

i think m2k has the right opinion about this matchup because falcon's nair and speed gives him a much easier time approaching marth then fox. also falcon's dthrow/upthrow trigger semi-auto combos, and can possibly end with a knee. at almost any percent dthrow/upthrow hurts marth so much. once marth is ~50 percent, he's in danger of throw into knee, which almost guarantees him knocked off the stage.

and edgeguarding marth is VERY simple; marth killer -> knee repeat. there are many other options of course, but this is the most effective way IMO. 07 m2k (BY FAR best edgeguarding vs marth in history) would always do some sort of marth killer variation

marth can possibly get around marth killer with nairs and charge b's sometimes, but thats only if he has enough room to recover after

 

[KirbyKaze]

@KK: to give illustrations of the whole patience thing



marth vs falcon is +1 or +2 for falcon, at the very least it is 50:50

i think m2k has the right opinion about this matchup because falcon's nair and speed gives him a much easier time approaching marth then fox. also falcon's dthrow/upthrow trigger semi-auto combos, and can possibly end with a knee. at almost any percent dthrow/upthrow hurts marth so much. once marth is ~50 percent, he's in danger of throw into knee, which almost guarantees him knocked off the stage.

and edgeguarding marth is VERY simple; marth killer -> knee repeat. there are many other options of course, but this is the most effective way IMO. 07 m2k (BY FAR best edgeguarding vs marth in history) would always do some sort of marth killer variation

marth can possibly get around marth killer with nairs and charge b's sometimes, but thats only if he has enough room to recover after

I was talking about Marth vs Jigglypuff. What does this have to do with that?

Also, Falcon doesn't approach anyone.

 

[idea]

Crimson actually clearly told you why you were wrong, if you look at his post and then yours you will realize that his argument is much better.

You say things like, fair is good but its hard to explain why whereas his argument was explained very clearly. Also jiggs bair is good but it still gets outranged by marth, ftilt will outrange it easily. For jiggs to win this matchup the reality is she has to bait marth into making a mistake and then taking advantage, but if we are talking about high level play between two equally skilled players, that kind of tactic won't be enough to give jiggs the advantage.

"Spacing is good" is actually enough, because spacing is the biggest part of the matchup, just because its 3 words doesn't mean it doesn't mean a lot.

if you really want i can sit down and figure out why her fair is good. that was more of an addendum than a main point.

what i meant is, you haven't countered my main points at all. and neither did that guy. tell me why crouch is bad or how marth can get by with no kill moves and i'll have more of a reason to listen to you. i'll give you "you didn't explain her fair well enough" but that's about all you've objected to specifically.

marth vs. jiggs

^i was gonna respond to him systematically but KK said it better already

 

[Laijin]

Jigs is at least 60:40 Sheik.

Your kidding right?
Sheik does not struggle that much with the match up for it to be 60:40.
Its at the most 55:45 even though I'd say its even closer than that

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Your kidding right?
Sheik does not struggle that much with the match up for it to be 60:40.
Its at the most 55:45 even though I'd say its even closer than that

Why tho, can you elaborate instead of continuing to make general statements and support them with things that really dont mean anything.

"Sheik beats fox by a little bit because its even but fox is at a slight disadvantage"
-Laijin

 

[Laijin]

Why tho, can you elaborate instead of continuing to make general statements and support them with things that really dont mean anything.

"Sheik beats fox by a little bit because its even but fox is at a slight disadvantage"
-Laijin

Edit: Oh...I get it. Your saying thats pretty much what I'm saying lol. I'm tired..

I was planning on stating my points later about why I feel weird about Sheik-Jiggs.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

LMAO. So why do you even post? your opinion is nothing more than a vote with no reasoning behind it. You are kinda proving my point. I was actually looking for explanations on the MU.

You vote for democrats because you like blue.

 

[Druggedfox]

Okay, sheik jiggs? Sheik actually outranges jiggs' ridiculousness with her own bair. Sheik's bair covers huge area because of how long it stays out(something marth can't say about his ranged attacks), and has great range. Similar to bair is sheik's nair in that it stays out a long time, and can trade hits with jiggs nicely. Additionally, sheik's combo game isn't really any different against puff, it's just less dominant. She still has her standard ftilt-->slap stuff, and she still has great setups like downtilt and dash attack that she would have against any other character. While she can't combo as long, the fact that jiggs dies at lower damages helps make up for that.

Sheik's needles are useful as they cover a wide area that prevent jiggs from easily maneuvering around them. They also set up nicely into almost any attack, which can be sheik's great way of getting around jiggs' crouch game.

This matchup is like the falco jiggs matchup in that, while falco has to watch out for getting gimped and upthrow rest shenanigans, sheik has to watch out for crouch--> rest and uptilt rest. In both cases, characters are exploited heavily in comparable ways (is anyone honestly going to tell me that it's easier to consistently uptilt rest a sheik who's wary of it, than it is to edgeguard a falco?). Despite that, if you make it a point NOT to grab unless it's impossible for jiggs to crouch (i.e. after needles, while combo'ing, or if jiggs is in her shield), you can avoid some of the things that kill most sheik players.

This isn't to say it's a completely even match or anything: jiggs can rest sheik half the time she's recovering at least, even if the sheik's smart about it, and jiggs' combo game on sheik can be almost as ridiculous as her edgeguarding. This in mind, jiggs might have an advantage, but it's very playable for any sheik player who knows the MU

 

[x After Dawn x]

LMAO. So why do you even post? your opinion is nothing more than a vote with no reasoning behind it. You are kinda proving my point. I was actually looking for explanations on the MU.

You vote for democrats because you like blue.

or because he's black

hmm

 

[Merkuri]

Okay, sheik jiggs? Sheik actually outranges jiggs' ridiculousness with her own bair. Sheik's bair covers huge area because of how long it stays out(something marth can't say about his ranged attacks), and has great range. Similar to bair is sheik's nair in that it stays out a long time, and can trade hits with jiggs nicely.

Shiek's bair outranges Jigs' bair but in this match up it's still a far worse move. The fact that it stays out for such a long time is a bad thing, it means that it's not as spammable and it leaves Sheik vulnerable after it's used. Jigs can spam bairs, if Sheik decides to counter them with her own bair Jigs can bait bairs by jumping in and out quickly due to her amazing air mobility, once Sheik does bair jigs can just bair you no mattter how well you try to space it. The problem here is that Sheik's counter for bairs can be countered while Sheik has no counter for Jigs' counter and therefore jigs comes out on top.

Additionally, sheik's combo game isn't really any different against puff, it's just less dominant. She still has her standard ftilt-->slap stuff, and she still has great setups like downtilt and dash attack that she would have against any other character. While she can't combo as long, the fact that jiggs dies at lower damages helps make up for that.

Bull****, f-tilt -> slap does not work on jigs, in fact if I remember correctly no tilts to strong finishes work on Jigs. The only viable killing link Sheik has in this match up is d-throw -> fair. Which doesn't say much because Sheik's grab game is sub-par and extremely risky against Puff. And Jigs dieing at lower percents is negated by the fact that she can't be edge guarded. Once she survives she will be making it back on to the stage.

Sheik's needles are useful as they cover a wide area that prevent jiggs from easily maneuvering around them. They also set up nicely into almost any attack, which can be sheik's great way of getting around jiggs' crouch game.

The needles are slow, jigs can duck under them and she is usually in the air so they shouldn't be hitting her anyways. The needles aren't entirely useless but they are not significant match up. As for jumping needles, getting rid of Jigs' crouch game from a distance simply isn't that big of a help either.

This matchup is like the falco jiggs matchup in that, while falco has to watch out for getting gimped and upthrow rest shenanigans, sheik has to watch out for crouch--> rest and uptilt rest. In both cases, characters are exploited heavily in comparable ways (is anyone honestly going to tell me that it's easier to consistently uptilt rest a sheik who's wary of it, than it is to edgeguard a falco?). Despite that, if you make it a point NOT to grab unless it's impossible for jiggs to crouch (i.e. after needles, while combo'ing, or if jiggs is in her shield), you can avoid some of the things that kill most sheik players.

I'm sorry but you simply don't know what you are talking about. Jigs vs Falco is winnable for Falco because his combo game is still existent on Puff, Sheik's combo game sucks against puff. You're asking if it's easier to edge guard a falco than to consistently uptilt rest a Sheik, you're probably right in this regard however you fail to acknowledge that it's easier to edge guard a Sheik than it is to edge guard a Falco. Part of what makes this match unwinnable for Sheik( 60:40 in Jigs' favor is generous to Sheik) is that Sheik gets **** edge guarded here. All Jigs has to do is wait on the ledge, since Sheik's up B won't hit Jigs off the ledge(assuming she's not right in front of the stage) all Jigs has to do is wait for Sheik to up b on to the stage and the ledge hop rest her. This will work over and over again because sadly there is nothing Sheik can do to stop it(see Amsah vs Hbox) while on the other hand of course Sheik can't edge guard Puff.

This isn't to say it's a completely even match or anything: jiggs can rest sheik half the time she's recovering at least, even if the sheik's smart about it, and jiggs' combo game on sheik can be almost as ridiculous as her edgeguarding. This in mind, jiggs might have an advantage, but it's very playable for any sheik player who knows the MU

It's not playable at all. Jigs should rest the sheik more than half of the time she recovers. i'd say 2/3 is more accurate.
Sheik will not win this match up unless she is considerably better than the Puff player. To summarize why Sheik loses so badly. Her combo game is removed from the match up. Her grab game is a high risk medium reward gamble and her solid edge guarding is rendered irrelevant. On the other hand Sheik has only sub-par rest punishes; with good DI and not on Yoshi Story Puff can live upwards of 85% from Sheik's best rest punishes and that's just sad. When both characters play like they should Jigs wins the air game as well. Anyone who thinks this match up is ok for Sheik is wishfully thinking. It sucks balls for Shiek.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

fox > falcon
falco >> falcon
marth < falcon
sheik >> falcon
puff = falcon

pointless post with no justifications, arguments, or reasoning of any kind.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Okay, sheik jiggs? Sheik actually outranges jiggs' ridiculousness with her own bair. Sheik's bair covers huge area because of how long it stays out(something marth can't say about his ranged attacks), and has great range.

Being airborne for a while vs a character that can do launcher --> Rest on you is bad.

Also, lol wut at range comment. It comes out much faster, but Sheik has to be below+away or above+away for it to beat Puff's Bair. Otherwise Puff's Bair goes through with epic disjointedness.

Similar to bair is sheik's nair in that it stays out a long time, and can trade hits with jiggs nicely.

Fair enough. Though it should be noted that this only works if Sheik is away+below or away+above Puff and Puff will be trying to either be directly below or directly in front of Sheik the entire time and she has better aerial mobility and jumps to do it with.

Additionally, sheik's combo game isn't really any different against puff, it's just less dominant.

Combos and OHKOs are pretty much the only things that let Sheik keep pace with the other top characters so this is a big problem.

She still has her standard ftilt-->slap stuff, and she still has great setups like downtilt and dash attack that she would have against any other character. While she can't combo as long, the fact that jiggs dies at lower damages helps make up for that.

If Puff DIs away, F-tilt doesn't combo to anything except Sheik getting hit for trying to follow it. And Dash Attack is super risky because of CC Rest, CC F-smash, Rest OoS, etc. It additionally just doesn't combo sometimes because they DI away (and after like 70 it doesn't combo no matter where they DI). D-tilt is fabulous if you can sneak it when they're above to land, but lower range can be irksome.

Sheik's needles are useful as they cover a wide area that prevent jiggs from easily maneuvering around them. They also set up nicely into almost any attack, which can be sheik's great way of getting around jiggs' crouch game.

If you're trying to approach crouching Jigglypuff with needles, and Puff moves forward, you die. Sheik's aerial mobility does not work well vs patient Jiggs, even if her actual aerials are great. Needles from platform give Jigglypuff a very easy position to strive for, too, and grounded ones fail altogether.

This matchup is like the falco jiggs matchup in that, while falco has to watch out for getting gimped and upthrow rest shenanigans, sheik has to watch out for crouch--> rest and uptilt rest.

Falco is the only character in the entire game that can legitimately combo a Jiggs that knows how to DI so no it's not comparable at all. Falco can actually take advantage of Puff's awful tech roll and get some Dair --> Dair chains going into more moves. Falco's projectile is also much better for keeping her out.

The matchups are not very comparable.

In both cases, characters are exploited heavily in comparable ways (is anyone honestly going to tell me that it's easier to consistently uptilt rest a sheik who's wary of it, than it is to edgeguard a falco?).

It's easier to edgeguard Sheik than it is to edgeguard Falco because edgeguarding Sheik is just waiting until she poofs and then Resting her. She doesn't have a good Rest punish so this works up to like 80% on most stages. You can also F-smash, Bair, etc.

Despite that, if you make it a point NOT to grab unless it's impossible for jiggs to crouch (i.e. after needles, while combo'ing, or if jiggs is in her shield), you can avoid some of the things that kill most sheik players.

Crouch isn't the only defense Puff has vs grab. Her normal game of spacing aerials with abuse of aerial mobility is stupidly difficult to grab. The crouch screws with a ton of Sheik's weaknesses including her ground game, which is mainly weak hits, and her high jumps (jump vs a ducking Puff to get away and then you're above her, and she's one step closer to getting under you and possibly killing you -- if she reads one of your sex-kick aerials that you mentioned earlier and lands an Uair btw, or simply Pounds through them, Sheik is very liable to die from it).

This isn't to say it's a completely even match or anything: jiggs can rest sheik half the time she's recovering at least, even if the sheik's smart about it, and jiggs' combo game on sheik can be almost as ridiculous as her edgeguarding. This in mind, jiggs might have an advantage, but it's very playable for any sheik player who knows the MU

I'm not going to argue it's unwinnable. It's doable, but difficult.

 

[KAOSTAR]

fox > falcon
falco >> falcon
marth < falcon
sheik >> falcon
puff = falcon

pointless post with no justifications, arguments, or reasoning of any kind.

lmao I agree.

your biggest problem is the format is wrong lol.

 

[Druggedfox]

@KK

I think I'm correct in saying that short hop bairs auto cancel. So if you do a DI'd away bair where the strong hit would hit jiggs if she approached, you can then DI away before jiggs can punish you. If she tries, just ftilt her. And yes, sheik does have to be below/above+away for this to work, but since when is positioning not a legitimate part of smash?

To anyone who doubts this, just rewatch the beginning of amsah vs hbox on yoshi's story:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q76jzEBqUiw

I watched this match very carefully as far as bair spamming on sheik's part. Not more than once or twice did amsah bair's come out, followed by him getting punished for it. In fact, the only times he got hit while bair spamming was before the bair came out. Also, I might note that hungrybox actually got killed for bairing when amsah would wait a bair out followed doing a fastfalled autocanceled fair. So much for aerial mobility making jiggs invincibile. I'm aware amsah got two stocked, but the bair spamming itself worked like a charm.

As for puff DI'ing away on tilts: yes you're totally right. But when discussing other matchups people still count upthrow rest as a combo, and jab reset rest as a combo. If I'm not mistaken, both of those are avoidable fairly easily, yet people still consider them. In a similar manner, you can hardly expect a puff to DI correctly on every single combo you attempt. Also, glad you recognize the usefulness of downtilt

Approaching against jiggs with needles and I'm dead? Why would I be approaching with needles, much less approaching at all. My main use of needles would probably be out of a full jump (especially when platforms are there) to prevent jiggs from approaching easily. The needles, if positioned correctly, either hit jiggs or stop her from coming forward. In fact, you cite a patient jiggs? I wouldn't play anything but a patient sheik in the matchup. Waiting for jiggs to commit to a bair and then getting her with needles or your own bair works just as well as the reverse. As for CC'ing jiggs... I don't mean to sound like arrogant but, has no one considered downsmash? If they try to crouch under a grab, or CC a dash attack, downsmash allows you to rack up some pretty good damage without getting punished. Even if jiggs shields it, downsmash is a shield pressure in and of itself against jiggs' tiny shield. In fact, if she's used her shield at all, it has a great chance to shield poke. This seems to be perhaps one of the most overlooked options by sheik players and I've never understood why.

Furthermore, I was only saying the falco/jiggs matchup was comparable in terms of the defensive aspect and how easily they can both be gimped. I'm hardly saying sheik's combo game is even remotely comparable to falco's on jiggs (which for some reason is the impression both you and merkuri got); I'm simply saying that just as jiggs has amazing setups into rest on sheik, and has amazingly easy edgeguarding, she also has similarly amazing setups on falco. The point simply being that despite this, a good falco player can put his whole effort into not getting rested. A similar comparison would be fighting a good ICs. I'm fully aware that getting a sync'ed grab to start wobbling is 100x times harder than setting up a rest, but I would bet that there's hardly a player ever fighting an IC player without the thought "Don't get grabbed at ALL costs".

Lastly, I never said crouch was her only defense against grab. In fact, all I said was that a sheik player should simply make sure to only grab if it's guaranteed.You're entirely right, KK, in saying that her normal game of spacing aerials with abuse of aerial mobility is stupidly difficult to grab. On the other hand, I never said it was easy, or that it should even be attempted. In fact, if anything, I'm saying DONT grab while she's spacing aerials, because I'm aware of how stupid it is. All I said was, and I quote:

Despite that, if you make it a point NOT to grab unless it's impossible for jiggs to crouch (i.e. after needles, while combo'ing, or if jiggs is in her shield), you can avoid some of the things that kill most sheik players.

No where did I claim it was easy to grab her jiggs while she's spacing, or that it should even be attempted. I understand this matchup is difficult, but it's hard to take something seriously when I'm being quoted and then having the other person argue a point I never made.

Does anyone know hbox/mango/darc's opinion on the matchup? Note: I'm well aware jiggs has an advantage, but anything worse than 60/40 is unrealistic I think. I'm not arguing sheik beats jiggs, but simply that sheik players tend to exaggerate the difficulty of the matchup.

 

[Winston]

Does anyone know hbox/mango/darc's opinion on the matchup?

you don't really have to...

I'm not dissing Amsah AT ALL,

I'm just being honest.

The matchup imo is SUPER bad, and it happens to be my favorite matchup.

"you don't really have to" as in "you don't really have to try".

 

[PB&J]

hbox was taught by a shiek player..he knows that match up really good where the shieks playing a puff dont know the match up as well. Just becasue hbox beat all the shieks doest mean the match up is as bad as people think I also remember reno having close games with hbox @ rom.

People - a 60/40 match up is a big difference..stop throwing those numbers around so much

before pound 3 i remember fox vs jiggs was like 65/35 . which it is clearly an even match up

jman vs hbox. hbox was more patient then jman. very close matches though

I also think shiek vs falco is even once she avoids the lasers correctly. they both can edge guard each other pretty good and combo each other. plus they can bait each other with needles and lasers

55/45 in falco favor is a bit too much in my opinion.

ps- alot of the jiggs match ups will take longer to figure out since most of the community is afraid of her

oh and hbox's pressure game is very good now. just had to say it before u guys seen it at apex

 

[MooseEatsBear]

fox > falcon
falco >> falcon
marth < falcon
sheik >> falcon
puff = falcon

pointless post with no justifications, arguments, or reasoning of any kind.

This^
/thread
LOLJK, but seriously, I think this is pretty accurate. I only watch videos, and I don't a have a lot of experience in these matchups, but I think Jiggs might be > and not =.

 

[rhan]

How does Puff = Falcon? I'm not knowledgable of the matchup. I'm just at a loss...

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'd just take Lumpy's word for it. He is the Wombo Master, after all.

 

[TemPesT-]

all about the knee! :D

and not trying to downthrow knee... (at least early %)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I think puff > falcon if the puff holds down when he touches the ground.

otherwise yeah, even.

 

[Pi]

funny to see samus matchups lol

 

[Mahone]

if you really want i can sit down and figure out why her fair is good. that was more of an addendum than a main point.

what i meant is, you haven't countered my main points at all. and neither did that guy. tell me why crouch is bad or how marth can get by with no kill moves and i'll have more of a reason to listen to you. i'll give you "you didn't explain her fair well enough" but that's about all you've objected to specifically.



^i was gonna respond to him systematically but KK said it better already

crouch isn't bad, but if you play a marth that is good, they just won't grab in spots where you can crouch, or the can just run up to bait it and then fsmash you. He can kill with tipper upair, tipper fair, uptilt, at high percent sideb to uptilt. It's similiar to the falco matchup where his kill moves aren't great (drpp usually resorts to bair at like 150), but its pretty safe to get jiggs up to that kind of percentage.

I think one main problem with this matchup is that if the marth can pivot his game is much better and i am not sure whether we are assuming he can or not.

 

[idea]

crouch isn't bad, but if you play a marth that is good, they just won't grab in spots where you can crouch, or the can just run up to bait it and then fsmash you. He can kill with tipper upair, tipper fair, uptilt, at high percent sideb to uptilt. It's similiar to the falco matchup where his kill moves aren't great (drpp usually resorts to bair at like 150), but its pretty safe to get jiggs up to that kind of percentage.

I think one main problem with this matchup is that if the marth can pivot his game is much better and i am not sure whether we are assuming he can or not.

i play I.B. all the time, don't worry about me not playing good marths =P

i don't see how marth would have time to run up to me and punish my crouch with fsmash. that just doesn't add up.

tipper upair, yes, at mid-100%s, unless i'm around the top platform of the level. same percentage as with fair, a bit lower for uptilt, and side-b doesn't lead to uptilt at high percentages with good DI. with jigglypuff being the lightest character, she can't really be killed by combos or edgeguarding, so to even that out she is supposed to die early off of normal moves. if she's living to 100%+ then there's already a bit of an imbalance there.

falco's kill moves aren't great, but he has combos, lasers, and superior shield pressure. and i would still say he kills jiggs earlier than marth, tipper fsmash excluded.

hm...i can't say i know much about marth's pivoting or how that would affect the matchup. how does that change things?

to summarize the matchup, i would say marth can hit jiggs more easily but he can't kill her. in the time it takes marth to get jiggs to 130% marth can expect to have been rested, edgeguarded, or both.

 

[Mahone]

i play I.B. all the time, don't worry about me not playing good marths =P

i don't see how marth would have time to run up to me and punish my crouch with fsmash. that just doesn't add up.

tipper upair, yes, at mid-100%s, unless i'm around the top platform of the level. same percentage as with fair, a bit lower for uptilt, and side-b doesn't lead to uptilt at high percentages with good DI. with jigglypuff being the lightest character, she can't really be killed by combos or edgeguarding, so to even that out she is supposed to die early off of normal moves. if she's living to 100%+ then there's already a bit of an imbalance there.

falco's kill moves aren't great, but he has combos, lasers, and superior shield pressure. and i would still say he kills jiggs earlier than marth, tipper fsmash excluded.

hm...i can't say i know much about marth's pivoting or how that would affect the matchup. how does that change things?

to summarize the matchup, i would say marth can hit jiggs more easily but he can't kill her. in the time it takes marth to get jiggs to 130% marth can expect to have been rested, edgeguarded, or both.

It's not about how good the marth is in general, if he doesn't know the matchup then it doesn't really mean anything.

I'm pretty sure marth has time to punish, but ill work on that today and tell you his best punish.

I'll agree that falco is better, but marth can space retreating fairs all day and throw in the occasional ftilt or fsmash. Also if you get hit with an inside fair you take like 4 before you can get out.

If marth can pivot that he can fthrow->tipper fsmash as a guaranteed combo up til like 100+ percent. Also pivot would help in punishing crouch, because he might be too slow without it, but again im not 100 percent sure about that one.

I also want to point out that if resting marth with edgehog or uptilt or whatever is so easy, then you also have to consider that if he di's so that he dies of the side, he should be able to come back and tipper fsmash or dwnsmash before you wake up, so he could get kills that way if you are at a high enough percent.

Also, unless you are god, you are bound to miss a rest or two, and i no we are talking about high level play, but even mango misses rest so i think its important to point out that he has an amazing rest punish in neutral b.

I dunno, i think that it's pretty obvious that its a bad matchup, but i don't really feel like argueing anymore, so just put it as 90-10 Jiggs, and then hopefully when i play in tournaments all the marth mains will see that i am playing puff and switch to their crappy fox secondary and i will have a much easier time winning.

 

[Druggedfox]

I won't really comment on the rest of the post, but fthrow-->fsmash up to 100+? Last I checked a jiggs DI'ing down and away makes that not a combo at anything above like 15%.

 

[dch111]

Mahone, that m2k vs mango on dreamland vid you mentioned is more of an argument why the match-up is even, rather than any side having an advantage. Sure, Mango couldn't get in, but M2k couldn't approach safely. If he maintained the spaced aerials, it would be a stalemate, not a win for Marth lol.

Why is it obvious that it's a bad match-up? The only thing "seemingly" obvious is range, but even then you can't consider range as just absolute range (range of the move without movement of the character). The corrected range (range + mobility, i.e. how far the move's hitboxes can actually cover in a certain amount of time) is more accurate. Puff hardly loses in that department.

I'll agree that falco is better, but marth can space retreating fairs all day and throw in the occasional ftilt or fsmash. Also if you get hit with an inside fair you take like 4 before you can get out.

This is the common, naive view of the match-up. You picture in your head this vision of a Marth on a vast, flat plane retreating with Fairs which ought, by all common sense, be unapproachable. The Puff struggles to chase, but alas cannot catch up. The problem is, where is Marth retreating to? The battles take place on finite (and usually small) islands with death surrounding the sides. Every retreat is generally putting yourself in a worse position. At some point, you run out of stage. Your options become limited. The occasional ftilt or fsmash is often what the Puff wants you to do, and baits it liberally, since the fsmash is especially easy to punish. And what is Puff doing getting hit with an inside Fair? I thought your Marth was spacing correctly, and thus should be getting tippers? If Puff got that close before getting hit, Marth would have gotten an aerial in the face already.

"Marth's fair and f-tilt outrange Jigg's bair, so you can wall them out indefinitely" is just a bull**** argument. How effectively does Marth wall out Fox? Or Falcon? Mobility is a very large aspect of spacing that people just don't seem to consider when talking about matchups.

 

[Winston]

I won't really comment on the rest of the post, but fthrow-->fsmash up to 100+? Last I checked a jiggs DI'ing down and away makes that not a combo at anything above like 15%.

magus showed that it's possible if you pivot. at higher percents (I forget what) you can wavedash.

I don't know if anyone can land it consistently.

 

[Pi]

magus showed that it's possible if you pivot. at higher percents (I forget what) you can wavedash.

I don't know if anyone can land it consistently.

Pivot's not that hard
I'm sure one could get 80-90% consistent with it easily
and the other 20/10% you would just end up dashing away w/o getting a hit

 

[KAOSTAR]

pivot smashes are really easy.

controlling aerial di and aerials is much harder.

its nice that you can f smash in either direction so you don't have to do extra shenanigans like if you wanted to dash F, dash away, pivot jab.(you could dash forward pivot then turnaround jab.)

all you have to do is flick the stick on the opposite direction during your dash. pretty giggling easy

 

[t3h Icy]

I'm just going to list what I've gathered from all the posts, but these are just rough numbers based on what people have said. Unless other people confirm them, they're just approximations:

Falcon 55:45 Marth?
Falco 65:35 Falcon?
Fox 65:35 Falcon?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Falcon?
Jigglypuff 55:45 Marth?
Jigglypuff 60:40 Sheik?
Sheik 60:40 Falcon?

fox: -3

falco: -1

jiggs: -2

marth: 0

peach: 2 Ive seen to many darkrain videos =D

fox destroys falcon

i always thought falcon does really well against falco


once fox hits your shield as falcon

it should be some super duper damage

u guys are just noobs and dont understand anything


**** noobs

<3

ok whats easier


nairing a falcons shield and waiting for him 2 roll or hitting him then it leading 2 grabs which leads to combos that lead 2 easy as tek chases


as where falcon


has 2 have SICK reads which is like 193913 times harder then auto ****

Reposting Hax's opinion on Falcon vs Sheik:

sheik: -1 or -2 to the average falcon, +1 or +2 to me. this matchup is actually sooo easy now but i can understand why people would fuss over it. i hated it for a good while too. to clarify: her dthrow bullsh*t does not work all you have to do is roll your cstick and not tech and you'll break out... think of it in the sense that both chars have no approach but falcon is faster and has a better DD. and if the falcon stays under 100% edgeguarding her is cake. i beat amsah in pound pools and i jv3 stocked plank this weekend as proof

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_9HVqIpNEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=af3DPxbZ6bs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-O52qQ25VM

 

[Magus420]

F-throw f-smash is not guaranteed. They can DI down & away. D-throw f-smash will work if they DI down & away though. If they DI down then d-throw f-smash does not work, and f-throw f-smash will only work if they pivot it (which is guaranteed there if they do it properly) or are near 100% and WD f-smash.

The ability to pivot f-smash and at high damage WD f-smash off of f-throw restores the mixup between f/d-throw to f-smash that was once considered negated by DIing down.

 

[Niko45]

Even though the pivot fsmash tactic could end up helping a lot vs puff, it still doesn't deal with the fact that attempting to grab jiggs at all is extremely risky and difficult to do.

Any Marth running up to a crouching jiggs and fsmashing is asking to get rested. That should work once per 10 matches with the reward of 18% and no kill if Jiggs is under 70%.

Marth can't retreat fair all day. Starting from middle of stage, depending on the stage, he has 2-3 retreat fairs before he is backed down to the ledge. Marth uses retreat fairs as educated guesses, hoping to anticipate a jiggs approach. If you guess wrong, well, good luck getting that stage control back and your next retreat fair should be even easier to bait. Meanwhile, if Marth actually lands a retreat fair, THIS DOESN'T COMBO. Retreat fair is a defensive, one-hit move. At best Marth gets to re-control the stage and setup to guess some more. The risk-reward is skewed drastically in this matchup.