The Ike Match-Up Ratio Topic

Nysyarc · Sep 13, 2010

That's true, we really should only include data from players who still main Ike. I was just trying to be diplomatic because I disagree with his disagreeing with our ratios, lol.

Renegade TX2000 · Sep 13, 2010

lol Snaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaake that's one mu i agree with if you don't even like what I have to say! Snake hUU HAA

Even if I don't main ike i'm pretty confident i have better mu knowledge with some of the cast then you guys are displaying on the board atm.

theeboredone · Sep 13, 2010

If you're so confident, why not explain your reasoning? Quite frankly, you're really not proving yourself if you just walk in and say "I know X better than you".

Renegade TX2000 · Sep 13, 2010

i'll make a list just give me a sec

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

Renegade TX2000 said:
I disagree with some of these mu's

the only mu's that are in our favor is luigi/ganondorf/zelda everything else is either 5/5 or in their favor or by a bit.

That's nice. However:

1) You're wrong.

2) You no longer play as Ike.

3) This topic is only for those who actively use Ike.

So please

4) Get out. Nobody likes arrogant idiots like you. You haven't used Ike in a long time, why on earth would you know more than people who are actively using Ike in tournaments, like say San for example?

Nys, if he posts here again, give him an infraction if possible. I don't want to deal with that low level of thinking in this topic.

Count · Sep 13, 2010

You guys are kidding yourselves if you think Ren's ike isn't still amazing.

Did you know he beat Mew2King in Ike dittos in a low tier tournament that had over 50 entrants and got second only to Ally? This was in July.

Did you know that he got second in a mid tier tournament with ike, losing only to kain twice and winning a set against Y.b.M.? This was about a month ago

Saying Ren's Ike/matchup ratios aren't legitimate is stupid :/

If anybody namesearches this I'm sorry I just had to have some data to back up ren.

edit: and its not like he said he was better than you guys. Just that he disagreed.
Nys, if nintendofreak posts here again give him an infraction for flaming renegade. thanks. I can't handle flaming when I'm browsing the ike boards.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

I haven't heard of him using Ike in months. We aren't interested in people who casually use Ike now and then in low tier tournaments. They don't have a broad range of understanding Ike's MUs, particularly you know, the high tier characters which aren't in low tier tournaments. I'm not just targeting Ren: I wouldn't accept M2K's MU ratios most likely either as I've only heard of him using Ike in low tiers and the rare MM or friendly.

Anyone saying Ike only wins 3 MUs in stuck in a 2008 mindset about him. That's not needed here. If I wanted that level of thinking, I'd have the ratio topic be open to anyone's opinion about Ike. That's why our previous MU topic was a mess of flame wars: stupid people stuck thinking 2008 style about Ike, based on old opinions and old experiences.

Poltergust · Sep 13, 2010

Is Ike really 55:45 against Yoshi? I always considered the match-up to be even.

But, what do I know? I haven't played many Ikes. I'll just wait and see until I get more Ike experience.

san. · Sep 13, 2010

Do the Yoshi boards have any recent matchup topics on Ike Poltergust? (namesearch plz)

Kuraudo · Sep 13, 2010

lol, nidtendofreak with the holier than thou attitude. This is funny.

Wish I could help but I don't use Ike as frequently as before. Who knows I might go back so I can help some time, but I like the progress the character's been making. It's awesome to see.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

Kuraudo said:
lol, nidtendofreak with the holier than thou attitude. This is funny.

I don't like people not reading the first post. Particularly the blue letters on the first post. Ren hasn't been around here for ever. He hasn't show up in tournament results for using Ike forever. We can't know if he's still up to date or not. And then he comes in claiming that he knows more than most of us, claiming Ike has only 3 advantages? No, that does not go in this topic. The whole point of this topic was to avoid stupidity such as A2's logic, or 2008 thinking.

AN(M)ist · Sep 13, 2010

More than ren, I think ryko and Rydle should give their inputs here, and also those notable japanese players (Sora?) if they lurk around this board.

EDIT:

What MU ratio mind set do you guys have?

I'm thinking:
70:30 - Huge advantage, change-over recommended for the second character.
65:35 - Big Advantage, Winning is a pain for the second character, even with MU experience.
60:40 - Advantage, MU experience compulsory for the second character.
55:45 - Slight Advantage, Second character has less tools than the first and therefore needs to play more wisely.
50:50 - Even, Both players have the tools necessary to play on par with each other.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

No, not the japanese players. Their metagame is noticeably different, particularly in stage system which plays a big roll.

theeboredone · Sep 13, 2010

Niddo, I think you need to relax a bit and give Ren a chance to explain his reasoning rather than directly infracting him. There are lot of people on SWF who don't read the first post to threads and disregard a lot of things. I already told him that he's no better if he comes in here saying he knows stuff, but doesn't explain it. So give him his chance, and we can argue if necessary.

Ussi · Sep 13, 2010

I think Ren should post his opinion.

also, the only reason i find Ike:Yoshi 55:45 is cause of Ike's anti-aerial game and Yoshi's lack of OoS options. And dash attack going under eggs

Nysyarc · Sep 13, 2010

Count said:
You guys are kidding yourselves if you think Ren's ike isn't still amazing.

Not a single one of us said his Ike isn't good, he just doesn't main Ike anymore. Low tier events don't count because basically everyone who mains a high tier character uses Ike in LT; he's the MK of LT and he should be in mid tier and everyone knows that by now.

If he's only using Ike in low tier, he can't have as much MU experience with Ike against high tier characters as those of us who have been using Ike 100% more recently. So please read over our posts from now on before assuming we're inaccurately flaming someone.

Renegade TX2000 said:
i'll make a list just give me a sec

Awesome, I'm all for that. And if there are any more disagreements in here, let's keep the debating friendly guys.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

Bah, fine. He's got one post. I really don't like dealing with people who come in saying stupid things like that though. It's A2 all over again. Or Inui, take your pick between the two.

Ussi · Sep 13, 2010

he's nothing like those two. Niddo, you're spilling unneeded salt.

While i understand your point as not using Ike vs High tiers does have a big importance as its harder to agree to his ratio, but i think he's a good enough player to be able to intellientingly back up his ratios

Mr. Doom · Sep 13, 2010

But, then again, who would want to use Ike in a tourney set against people who have a decisive advantage over him?

devil's advocate

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

Ussi said:
he's nothing like those two. Niddo, you're spilling unneeded salt.

While i understand your point as not using Ike vs High tiers does have a big importance as its harder to agree to his ratio, but i think he's a good enough player to be able to intellientingly back up his ratios

So far, he's credited Ike with a whooping 2 more advantages, and started off in the same style. He's not off to a good start of convincing me otherwise. >_>

Ussi · Sep 13, 2010

He hasn't backed himself up yet. You just attacked right away without waiting for it. I know we don't like ignorant people but doesn't mean you can just dismiss his opinion just cause he thinks Ike doesn't do as well as we think. We all think differently.

Still, i probably will disagree with many of Ren's ratios but its healthly discussion for us all.

jamlosingthegame · Sep 13, 2010

"I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - I forgot who said this.

I wish I had more MU experience and actually went to tourneys. My friend might be going to the next Viridian City, so I might have a chance going there.

YagamiLight · Sep 13, 2010

jamlosingthegame said:
"I might not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" - I forgot who said this.

That is like Voltaire quote #1. You could have googled it.

Anyway I like Renegade and want to hear what he has to say. Comparing him to A2 and Inui is ludicrous.

Also I'm going to submit my ratios soon, please forgive me if I don't do it immediately, though. If I'm late for the deadline, feel free to use my old ratios or disregard me entirely.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 13, 2010

*shrug* That's what my initial opinion of him is. First impressions mean a lot.

san. · Sep 14, 2010

Even if you don't get your list out fully completed, thoughts on how your perspective of specific MUs change are always welcome.

I am confused how other boards put MK at 4-6 or something like that when I see MKs wreck them harder than they do us. Maybe I just put certain MUs at a higher standard than others..

Poltergust · Sep 14, 2010

san3711 said:
Do the Yoshi boards have any recent matchup topics on Ike Poltergust? (namesearch plz)

I don't namesearch (only check like most recent post and stuff like that). D:

Anyways, we're going to be discussing him in... a month or so? We're going by the list of characters in alphabetical order and discussing a character once per week. We're at Diddy Kong this week.

So that leaves DK, Falco, Fox, Ganondorf, and Ice Climbers. Then we'll be discussing Ike.

Heartstring · Sep 14, 2010

oh my i go for a single day and come back to find a flame war -__-
regardless i feel i should put my two cents into the thread

MK: 30-70
Snake: 40-60
diddy kong: 40-60
Falco: 35-65
Ice climbers: 45-55
marth: 35-65
Wario: 45-55
Dedede: 40-60
Pikachu: 45-55
Olimar: 30-70
Lucario: 40-60
Game&watch: 50-50
Pit: 45-55
Toon link: 45-55
Zerosuitsamus: 40-60
Kirby: 50-50
R.O.B: 45-55
Donkey kong: 55-45
Peach: 50-50
Fox: 40-60
Luigi: 40-60
Wolf: 50-50
Sheik: 50-50
Pokemon trainer: 60-40
Sonic: 55-45
Ness: 55-45
Bowser: 50-50
Lucas: 55-45
Ike: ditto's
Yoshi: 55-45
Mario: 50-50
Captain falcon: 55-45
Samus: 35-65
Jigglypuff: 60-40
Zelda: 55-45
Link: 50-50
Ganondorf: 60-40

i'm naturally pessimistic about obvious things such as ikes oh-so-linear recovery, but i reckon its not too bad.
also: i have personal hatred for fox and luigi, and the only link ive ever fought is Izaw so i can be forgiven on that account right? XD

Nidtendofreak · Sep 14, 2010

GP, can you do Nys a favor and put them in the order everyone else uses? The Ike:Opponent ratio instead of Opponent:Ike. It would probably be easier for Nys to avoid mistakes that way.

Heartstring · Sep 14, 2010

editing for viewing purposes

Nidtendofreak · Sep 14, 2010

You also need to add MU ratios for each PT pokemon. >_>

theeboredone · Sep 14, 2010

Here are mine and updated.

0-100 --> 80-20 (being a realist?)

40-60 (Really do wanna put this at 45-55, but that's giving Ike too much benefit of the doubt)

40-60 --> 45-55

30-70 --> 40-60 (has a hard time killing us after CG...read camping play.)

40-60

35-65

45-55

35-65

45-55

35-65

40-60

45-55 (The only reason I consider this 45-55 is soley because G&W has a variety of stages he can use on us)

45-55

40-60

35-65 --> 40-60

50-50

40-60

45-55

40-60

60-40

45-55
:shiek: 40-60

60-40 --> 65-35 (Eruption ****, possibly 70-30)

55-45

60-40 --> 65-35 (Ivysaur...just fails)

45-55

50-50

60-40

55-45

Ditto Match

55-45

50-50

60-40

40-60

45-55

60-40

65-35

Mr. Doom · Sep 14, 2010

Mr. Doom said:
Mr. Doom's turn.

40-60
45-55
45-55
45-55
50-50
45-55
50-50
45-55
50-50
45-55
55-45
50-50
50-50
50-50
55-45
50-50
50-50
50-50
50-50
45-55
60-40
45-55
:shiek: 45-55
55-45
45-55
60-40
55-45
50-50
60-40
60-40
60-40
-100-200
55-45
50-50
60-40
45-55
60-40
60-40
60-40
60-40

There, I'm done. Bye.

I've decided to go through my match-up chart again and make some adjustments. Any changes made are bold and white.

theeboredone · Sep 14, 2010

I would ask for an explanation...but I'm too lazy.

YagamiLight · Sep 14, 2010

YagamiLight said:
35:65
45:55
45:55
40:60
55:45
40:60
45:55 -> 50:50
40:60 -> 35:65
50:50
35:65 -> 40:60
40:60
55:45
45:55
40:60 -> 45:55
40:60 -> 45:55
50:50 -> 55:45
45:55 -> 55:45
55:45
55:45
45:55
60:40
45:55
:shiek: 45: 55 -> 50:50
60:40
65:35
60:40
50:50
50:50
55:45
60:40
55:45
Ditto Match
55:45
55:45->60:40
60:40
45:55
60:40
60:40
60:40
65:35

I was being too hard on Ike earlier, made most of these MUs better.

Except for D3 who is a raving homosexual.

Mr. Doom · Sep 14, 2010

Hmm. I thought I already gave my explanation earlier on. Oh well.

san. · Sep 14, 2010

DDD I think, is an example of a very few powerful tools.

Foodies · Sep 15, 2010

I guess I’ll just comment on the matchup I know best (wonder what that is...) since I don’t think I’m qualified to comment on the others (other than theorycrafting).
Though with that said...

35:65 - Theorycrafting ratio

If Marth spaces perfectly, it is impossible for Ike to punish. (But of course, Marth’s not going to be spacing perfectly all the time). If Marth gets the lead and decides to play incredibly ~~gay~~ campy, Ike can't do much about it. Marth can mess up Aether with counter, and his disjointed hitbox also makes it easier to hit Ike out of Aether if Marth is on stage (True, but see below). It’s also possible to DS and Dair Ike out of Aether; additionally, Marth can DS out of jab combos. (People don’t always have really good timing, which is needed for Marth to Dair Ike out of Aether. If Marth messes up it's possible to get Aetherspiked. DS is a risky move to use in general. Marth most likely will not DS out of jab cancels unless Ike is at high %/there is a platform. It’s not worth the risk since if Ike baits it by shielding after jab, it’s a free fsmash.)

40:60/45:55 - Reasonable ratio

In theory it is easy to gimp Ike, but it's hard to do consistently in reality. Marth has to guess how Ike will recover. Counter requires commitment, and reverse Aether beats it. Well, if timed wrong even regular Aether beats it. Fsmash/ almost any decently ranged attack beats reverse Aether. Ike will most likely will take damage from edgeguarding, but will not be gimped (unless you have bad DI/are read). Attempting to gimp Ike is high risk high reward for Marth imo. Marth can go for the easy ledgehog to force Ike onstage and hit him with an aerial, but then Ike most likely will be onstage or up high, where recovering isn’t as difficult. If Marth goes for more fancy stuff like offstage counter, it will either kill Ike or put himself in a really bad position. Walkoff fairs from Marth can be ADed, but then it becomes a competition to get to the ledge first. It’s possible to be stagespiked by DS, but it’s also possible to Aetherspike Marth, depending on both character’s positioning and timing of the attacks. Ike is decently heavy, so it already takes some work to get him in a position to be gimped.

Ike can gimp (or just outright kill) Marth as well. DS isn’t too hard to ledgehog, but Marth can DB stall to mess up the timing. If you force Marth to land on the stage with DS, it is a free upair (fair/nair too of course, but upair kills). Ike’s walkoff fair is similar to Marth’s walkoff fair in the sense that if it hits, the opponent is most likely dead. Ike’s is not as safe since it takes longer, but it has more range. Fair in general is very good offstage pressure, since people can’t really challenge it’s range. Also, Marth has a blind spot underneath him, which can be exploited by nearly ever character since his AD sucks. His good air mobility and aerials (and sometimes DB/SB shenanigans) make up for some of that, which prevents him from being juggled too badly. But if Ike successfully baits an AD...it hurts.

Marth is light, Ike is heavy. Marth has to hit Ike a lot more to kill him (aside from gimping), and Marth has no safe kill moves. Marth has the stupid DS glitch, which makes it harder for him to get back on the stage safely. Ike has bthrow to dash attack to force Marth offstage/guaranteed damage. A few jab combos/aerials and Marth is at killing percent... But if Marth spaces and edgeguards well, it is a really annoying matchup.

60:40 – If Marth has bad DI and fails at edgeguarding

I consistently lose to Metroid ._.

This turned out longer than I expected...and I probably missed something. Oh well.
tldr;

40:60

san. · Sep 15, 2010

Might move MK to 35:65.

Lots of things I've been thinking should happen in theory when playing against MK I haven't really seen emulated or posed as much of a threat as I thought. There was a similar reason why I had Marth pretty bad, but maybe it's mitigated at high level play and the focus lies elswhere

EDIT: Screw it. Decided to re-evaulate my re-evaluations because I based a lot of my MUs on theorycraft compared to how I play against people because good theorycraft is more stable at MUs, but in many MUs I just don't see practical advantages/disadvantages without going into theorycraft Mumbo Jumbo. Also, many non-falco projectiles are overrated, especially since we can powershield-->best jab in the game

san3711 said:
35-65
40-60 Snake gets jabbed to death so very easily, yet nade handling and even trade of hits from both sides as well as a more reliable kill move at high %s. Barely outside 45:55.

45-55 : Ike with decent banana manipulation, DACIT, etc helps a lot, especially since Ike can handle diddy without bananas. Jab interrupts DACUS up close, too.

40:60 (SDI spike. Dash attack under SHDL, jab sideB. Falco still has great damage racking and annoying jab though we can kill earlier and nair goes through everything when falco tries to land) Same difficulty as snake

50:50 we beat ICs very bad on most of our counterpicks, though.

40-60 imo this is a large change from what I thought before, mostly because of bthrow->dash attack and dash attack at the ledge as well as pressuring marth at the ledge for upB lag and light weight. Given the opportunity marth can still do work

50-50 retreating nair, dash away pivot jab, jab-->grab, occasional use of bair maybe fair
35-65 (Possible to gay DDD a lot, but the chaingrab is the single tool DDD needs to make the MU in his favor, and the weight doesn't help either. Grab armor, etc. Avoiding grabs kind of annoying but it's possible. Other than the grab, nothing special though, lol)
50-50
40-60
45-55
50-50
45-55
45-55
40-60
45-55
55-45
50:50
50-50
50-50
60-40
50-50
:shiek: 50-50
60-40
60-40
55-45 (never played charizard that much)
65-35 (same as charizard, wild guess lol)
50-50
55-45 (grab release, bthrow dash attack offstage + offstage game, and difficulty always landing successfully)
60-40
55-45
Ditto Match
55-45
60-40
60-40 weight+speed, but not enough reward for punishments. Makes it harder for us to get good kill moves outside of bair. OoS jab still does work though lol
50-50
55-45
60-40
60-40 (would be 55:45 if Ike couldn't bthrow-->dash attack him offstage and it's easy to grab him =( )
65-35 (same as link, would be 60:40 without the extra gay stuff we found out)

Changed quite a few. I was overrating the projectile/camp games of many characters (TL, ROB, etc)
Also changed some light character ratios, because their light weight I never really considered, just how bad they can mess up Ike. I started to think more about trades and especially CQC where light characters do not want to be usually.

The ones I kept the same were characters with legit aerial games, multiple jumps, and good characteristics that may be an annoyance.

2 I am really am tempted to move up even more are ZSS and pikachu, but for now I'll leave as is. Maybe wario, just seems like everything Ike does that just messes up wario, wario at least has to make Ike be a little careful.

I took out the "worst case theorycraft" for lots of the MUs I was thinking about.

Hist · Sep 19, 2010

Ike match up

Im not much of anybody in the Ike scene but i do play a lot with people that i believe are good.
I have a few match ups i'm solid on however that i can add about.

30-70
Very, very difficult fight. You can get a few hits at the little openings you get after MK attacks, however; if you miss them you're going to be juggled by nado. I can see possible attack openings but their just so hard to get to especially with MK's Punishing ability, it makes you hesitate to try different moves.

50-50
Funnest fight in the world IMHO. When me and my friend go at each other it ends up being a who ever missed first gets combo'd. Peach gets launched easily but she has so many possible approaches and juggles that she keeps you on your toes.

:kirby:

40-60
Between bair, grabs, and juggles kirby really dominates unless you can SD and grab with perfect timing

45-55
If you can powershield through the wall of items you really only have to wait for T.Link to hit the floor and abuse. Its just about being careful when your in mid high percentages.

45-55
Wolf has alot better ground game than ike(which is ike almost only game) however, he's limited to whats around him and infront of his laser a QD -> grab is usually possible after lasers and he's vulnerable to shielding. Not to mention his recovery is very spike/smashable. Hard to get into position to attack but once your in front of him he's all yours.

Nidtendofreak · Sep 20, 2010

Hey Nys, do you want to compile the ratios now, or wait a bit longer?

The Ike Match-Up Ratio Topic

Last King of Hollywood

Smash Ace

Smash Legend

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

Smash Master

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

4Aerith

Smash Hero

Smash Ace

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Legend

Last King of Hollywood

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Lord

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Master

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Hero

Smash Legend

Smash Champion

Smash Hero

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Journeyman

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero

Smash Cadet

Smash Hero

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