The Ike Match-Up Ratio Topic

[Ussi]

these bots are getting more advanced by the day

 

[YagamiLight]

In order for me to give my opinion on these match-ups, it is necessary for you to first pay a small transfer fee to my royal cousins in Nigeria who will promptly be able to transfer the national treasury (and the match-up opinions) to your bank account.

 

[Ussi]

You already gave your opinion

 

[YagamiLight]

I guess that means you won't be saving my royal cousins in Nigeria?

Then no 475,000,000,000 US Dollars for you.

 

[Nysyarc]

Lmao Light. And yah that was probably a human-operated ad bot, but an ad bot nonetheless. It made a good effort to fit in, I'll give it that.

 

[solecalibur]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=203418&page=125

Zss boards are talking about you

 

[Iofsauron]

I'm just wondering, are these Match-up ratios being updated at all?

 

[Ussi]

Next season yea o-o

 

[Foodies]

Are we going to update summaries on matchups as well? (though that probably would take a while/require a new board.)

 

[Yamato Hong]

Thanks to the efforts of professional Ike mains, we may have seen a more improved metagame for Ike! ^-^

Guilhe did a phenomenal job with his matchup threads then... Where could he have gone now?

 

[theeboredone]

Either he got tired of us or quit LOL.

 

[AN(M)ist]

Is cape the only thing that makes the mario MU even for Ike? I don't see how mario MU is this different than luigi MU. Both they're range are like the same. Some one care to explain plz.

 

[san.]

I think the MU is a good portion Ike's favor. I've played Boss, Kirinblaze, and plenty other nice marios.

Ike can usually jab mario without worry, leaving more than enough time to shield or uptilt if the Mario decides to aerial out of a jab. Nair messes up Mario's spacing ability pretty hard.

Ike can easily jab or powershield fireballs. If mario uses a fireball as an approach, Ike's fair has enough range to hit Mario before even getting hit by a fireball.

Recovering offstage, there is a way to recover if Mario tries to FLUDD or cape your aether. Make sure you're recovering as close to the stage as possible. If Mario is going to cape, hold back. If Mario is going to FLUDD, hold forward. Of course, reverse aether completely messes up cape gimps, but leaves you more susceptible to FLUDD, so if you reverse aether make sure he won't try to FLUDD. It is very dangerous for mario to follow you offstage, because then reverse aether you are almost guaranteed to return, and Ike can punish hard if he gets back to the stage or even worse for Mario.

When Mario is offstage, he will use his fireballs. It's really easy to just use full hop fairs to pressure Mario offstage. The pressure is enough to get Mario to do more of what you want, or he gets hit, which is even better. Mario's cape for recovery is only effective 3 times when recovering so keep him trying to recover low. Remember, bthrow-->dash attack is guaranteed around ~65-->~85% and works around more % if they DI incorrectly. Fthrow-->dash attack offstage at high percents (~90-120+) is also effective (lack of a good fair).

If Mario manages to snap to the ledge, all you really need to do is just fair him to death. You can mix it up, but fair is easist because mario has no aerials to outrange it, and he will suffer upB lag upon landing. If you manage a grab before he lands (let's just say he does a regular getup), bthrow to upsmash is guaranteed.

Easiest way to take stocks off of Mario is jab-->uptilt. Upsmash is also very easy, but it takes observation because of the properties of the lift of the cape. If Mario is facing away from you or just walking around, be prepared for the pivot fsmash. Mario shouldn't be killing very early, or at least compared to you. Still, watch out for jab-->dsmash and the occasional upsmash, even though they may be hard to land or hard to actually kill us.

To me, the MU seems to be solidly in favor of Ike. Mario doesn't have enough tools to get Ike offstage to a place where he can easily gimp Ike, and gimping Ike is not favorable enough odds in my opinion.

 

[AN(M)ist]

That's covers just about everything for me, thanks a lot.

There's this guy Ivan who also plays mario, he's been really tough for me. Guess I need to jab and nair alot more.

 

[jamlosingthegame]

@AN(M)ist: About the cape thing
1) fsmash facing away.
2) have lulz
3) ????
4) PROFIT!!!

I also have a friend named Ivan. He sometimes uses Mario, but mains Ganon.

 

[Heartstring]

mario can be annoying if you dont know how to space, same with luigi...or if your jsut plain offensive luigi's destroys aaand being offensive is fun ^_^

 

[theeboredone]

Honestly, I consider Luigi more dangerous soley for the fact that Luigi can jab+upB us to death. That and I see his tornado can be hell of annoying.

In all honesty, I think Mario is really hard to play on wifi, because any lag can delay your actions if you happen to get by a fireball or cape. It can make using aether to recover difficult, and on top of that, P-shielding is difficult to do as well.

Also why I struggle vs Pit online -_-. Seems like every Pit I play has some huge lag with them. Hit stun from the arrows turn into 2 seconds.

 

[Nysyarc]

Honestly, I consider Luigi more dangerous soley for the fact that Luigi can jab+upB us to death. That and I see his tornado can be hell of annoying.

Heh, after having played Zhao and many other local guys who second Luigi, I've gotten into the habit of preparing to SDI down as soon as I see a potential jab coming. That's really the only way I've found to escape the jab -> upB is to SDI the jab down and PS, which does work and then it's a free Usmash for you. And yah his tornado is something you really have to see coming miles away or there's not much you can do about it. If you do see it coming then a good retreating Fair will punish.

Also agreed about Pit online; it's really hard to seriously practice that MU online because without being able to PS and time dodges properly the arrows are practically true combos into each other as long as he keeps them going.

 

[KoSa!]

Mario > Luigi in the Ike matchup. Fireball approaches, and his a gimping wizard. You can see the UpB setups coming a lot of the times, no need to fear it. People fear Luigi's srk but people should fear his fsmash, now that thing is lethal. It's also harder for Luigi to get in in this matchup with fireballs shooting completely horizontally, he would have to do a falling fireball to get in.

This is coming from observation I don't play any of the above characters, but friends do and I've seen videos of these characters.

 

[-RedX-]

Also why I struggle vs Pit online -_-. Seems like every Pit I play has some huge lag with them. Hit stun from the arrows turn into 2 seconds.

Wow, I thought I was the only who felt like that. rofl

Recovering offstage, there is a way to recover if Mario tries to FLUDD or cape your aether. Make sure you're recovering as close to the stage as possible. If Mario is going to cape, hold back. If Mario is going to FLUDD, hold forward. Of course, reverse aether completely messes up cape gimps, but leaves you more susceptible to FLUDD, so if you reverse aether make sure he won't try to FLUDD. It is very dangerous for mario to follow you offstage, because then reverse aether you are almost guaranteed to return, and Ike can punish hard if he gets back to the stage or even worse for Mario.

I really needed this info, thanks. ;O
Inb4A2

1000th post already? D;

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Id say lugi is more dangerous than mario cause luigis close range is much more dangerous espically with luigi bein able to kill faster the only thing luigi has a disadvantage I would say recovering wise even though luigi still has a good recovery

 

[Ussi]

Luigi's shield push makes him easier.

 

[M.C. Pee-Pants]

Luigi's shield push makes him easier.

that helps him space as well

 

[Ussi]

It doesn't let him punish Ike OoS

 

[theeboredone]

Oh yea, Luigi's f-smash is hell of dangerous. Thing can kill you at 90 if you don't DI well. On top of that, he can spam the crap out of it since it has little delay. However, one thing both Mario and Luigi lack is kill moves. You know Luigi is gonna try to jab+upB you or f-smash you. You know Mario is gonna try to f-smash or d-smash you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe those are their primary kill moves.

 

[Nysyarc]

Besides gimping with Mario, which is usually easy to see coming and avoid unless it happens to be a very good and creative Mario player, those are basically their only kill moves. Luigi can also KO with Nair but it has to be the sweet-spot (first frame or two), and it's not as strong as Fsmash. Some of their throws can sort of KO but they're easy to DI and stale quickly.

So basically if you go up a stock just space them and try not to spot-dodge or roll at all, just shield the smashes. And don't follow them off-stage; I'm fairly confident Ike has the advantage on stage against both of them due to range and Jab, so just control the stage.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Alright people, strap on your bootstraps: it's time for another round of MU ratios. You'll all have one week from today to get your MU ratios in. Same format as before, changes in bold please, unless you haven't posted before. In which case everything is new obviously.

As for myself: I don't think much has changed. However, one or two of the MU ratios has gotten "better" IMO, now that we have an idea of just how often we can use Bthrow->Dash Attack for free damage. This only changed MU ratios that were, IMO, right on the edge between two numbers before, and only needed a #1-#1 difference to push it over the edge when it comes to rounding.

3-7
4-6
45-55
35-65
50-50 Upon giving this one more thought, I'm not seeing it as slightly Ike's advantage. Just the way I describe the MU ratio in my head sounds like a dead even MU to me.
35-65
45-55
35-65
50-50
35-65
40-60
50-50 A borderline MU that was altered due to Bthrow->Dash Attack %s.
45-55
40-60
35-65 It seems that my opinion of this ratio keeps bouncing back and forth between 35-65 and 40-60. :/ For the time being, I'm rounding it back towards more in ZSS's favor.
45-55
50-50 Same as G&W
40-60
50-50 Just a note, I believe the Bthrow->Dash Attack and new Peach stuff balances the ratio out to be the same as before.
45-55
60-40
40-60
:shiek: 40-60
65-35 Due to Squirtle's MU changing, and how it rounds out. Doesn't look right in my head, but thats how it basically rounds out. :/ Unless I did my math wrong and it's still 60-40.
70-30 Didn't know about the Eruption edgeguarding before. Add that in with either a GR Change Grab off the ledge, or Bthrow->Dash Attack by the ledge and this MU is just ****. I'm sorry, but Squirtle gets destroyed by Ike, plain and simple.
45-55
55-45
50-50
50-50
60-40
55-45
Ditto Match
55-45
55-45 Bthrow -> Dash Attack stuff again.
60-40
40-60
60-40
60-40
60-40 A way to combo Link off the stage at a fairly low angle? Yay!
70-30 Same as Link.

Apparently, I had 6 "on the boarder" MUs last time. Go figure.

 

[san.]

35-65
40-60 Snake gets jabbed to death so very easily, yet nade handling and even trade of hits from both sides as well as a more reliable kill move at high %s. Barely outside 45:55.

45-55 : Ike with decent banana manipulation, DACIT, etc helps a lot, especially since Ike can handle diddy without bananas. Jab interrupts DACUS up close, too.

40:60 (SDI spike. Dash attack under SHDL, jab sideB. Falco still has great damage racking and annoying jab though we can kill earlier and nair goes through everything when falco tries to land) Same difficulty as snake

50:50 we beat ICs very bad on most of our counterpicks, though.

40-60 imo this is a large change from what I thought before, mostly because of bthrow->dash attack and dash attack at the ledge as well as pressuring marth at the ledge for upB lag and light weight. Given the opportunity marth can still do work

50-50 retreating nair, dash away pivot jab, jab-->grab, occasional use of bair maybe fair
35-65 (Possible to gay DDD a lot, but the chaingrab is the single tool DDD needs to make the MU in his favor, and the weight doesn't help either. Grab armor, etc. Avoiding grabs kind of annoying but it's possible. Other than the grab, nothing special though, lol)
50-50
40-60
45-55
50-50
45-55
45-55
40-60
45-55
55-45 ROB just seems really easy to me.. may be even higher but theorycraft makes me think it's 50:50
50:50
50-50
50-50
60-40
50-50
:shiek: 45-55
60-40
60-40
55-45 (never played charizard that much)
65-35 (same as charizard, wild guess lol)
50-50
55-45 (grab release, bthrow dash attack offstage + offstage game, and difficulty always landing successfully)
60-40
55-45
Ditto Match
55-45
60-40
60-40 weight+speed, but not enough reward for punishments. Makes it harder for us to get good kill moves outside of bair. OoS jab still does work though lol
50-50
55-45
60-40
60-40 (would be 55:45 if Ike couldn't bthrow-->dash attack him offstage and it's easy to grab him =( )
65-35 (same as link, would be 60:40 without the extra gay stuff we found out)

 

[lordhelmet]

Do you guys really think you have 4-6 over CF? I always thought it was 45-55 (Ike).

Then again San would know a bit better than me

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Do you guys really think you have 4-6 over CF? I always thought it was 45-55 (Ike).

Then again San would know a bit better than me

*nods*

San beat Ally. The few Falcons I've played were easy to beat, and the few times I've used Falcon against Ike I've noticed an uphill battle. Ike has too much range over Falcon for it to be 45-55. Nair just kills a lot of things Falcon can attempt to use for an approach.

 

[san.]

It could possibly be 55:45 because of Falcon's speed. If I could see some vids it may convince me =)

He just doesn't get enough reward for the times he does punish compared to getting jabbed for % and bair for kills. But is speed really enough? It is for sonic because of all of his mixups that work for different things/cancel, but falcon can't do all that.

 

[lordhelmet]

*nods*

San beat Ally. The few Falcons I've played were easy to beat, and the few times I've used Falcon against Ike I've noticed an uphill battle. Ike has too much range over Falcon for it to be 45-55. Nair just kills a lot of things Falcon can attempt to use for an approach.

*shrug*

I'll stick with my ratio but I don't see Ike being harder than characters like Fox/Lucario.

The match-up is pretty bad on paper but I've never had too many problems with it. Uair and utilt is all you need against Ike xD

Not to mention San's Ike is better than Ally's Falcon. I mean he has to have more MU experience and more character experience simply because Ike is his actual main.

Edit: @ San's edit xD I could look for some vids but I would only be showing you San vs Ally vids. Based on the ones I watched it honestly didn't look like a 4-6 MU. On top of what I said above your Ike is better than Ally's Falcon anyway.

 

[san.]

1 match shouldn't decide a MU ratio, but only help to affirm past notions you had on an MU that you didn't have enough proof to say. I think falcon is harder than Luigi even though both I put as 60:40, but easier than yoshi and jiggs. Don't really care if falcon is 55:45 or 60:40 could go either way depending on which aspects you want to put emphasis on.

I would compare Falcon to Mario in difficulty.

EDIT: scratch that, falcon's harder than mario too rofl.

 

[theeboredone]

I'll post my thoughts later.

 

[-RedX-]

30-70
40-60
45-55
35-65 -> 40-60 - Not as hard I as I thought when it comes to edgeguarding.
45-55 I don't like them. :[
40-60
40-60
35-65
45-55
35-65
45-55
45-55 -> 50-50 - I can beat Penta now. *shrugs* lol
45-55
35-65 -> 40-60 - Recently played Jash again, just had to wait for him to land. Still gay though.
40-60
45-55
55-45 ROB sucks.
50-50
50-50
40-60
55-45
40-60
:shiek: 45-55
55-45 -> 60-40
55-45 -> 60-40 - Eruption discussion. (No rhyme intended)
60-40
50-50
45-55
55-45
55-45
55-45
- Port priority.
55-45
45-55 -> 50-50 - This ***** shouldn't be gimping me.
55-45
40-60
55-45
60-40
60-40
60-40

I need to go to tournies more often. -.-

 

[Nysyarc]

30-70
40-60
35-65 -> 40-60
40-60
40-60 -> 50-50
40-60
45-55
40-60
45-55
40-60
45-55 -> 50-50
45-55
45-55
45-55
35-65 -> 40-60
45-55
40-60
50-50
45-55
45-55
60-40
45-55
:shiek: 40-60
60-40 -> 65-35
60-40 -> 65-35
60-40 -> 65-35
50-50
45-55
55-45
60-40
55-45
x = Wut?
55-45
50-50
65-35 -> 60-40
45-55
45-55 -> 50-50
60-40
65-35
70-30

15-85

Change Reasonings:

- I actually don't know why I had this ratio so bad, I've never had that much of a problem with Diddy except on very specific stages. Seeing San vs Gnes almost makes me want to put it at 45-55 but that'd be a stretch for the base MU.

- Again, not sure why I had this one so far in their favor when I've said many times that I believe the MU is even and maybe even slightly in our favor.

- I find as long as you can take the first stock against Lucario, your set as long as you keep your head. He won't be able to KO you until you've racked damage on him, then once he's at high percent just space and punish mistakes. His projectile isn't really a threat at all unless you're off-stage and he times it to hit Aether, but that doesn't warrant giving him an advantage in the MU.

- After extensively playing a local ZSS main I've found this MU isn't quite as bad as I thought.

- See Squirtle and Ivysaur.

- Grab release nonsense, Bthrow -> DA, massively outranged, walk-off Fair, Eruption... I've never had a problem with a single Squirtle.

- Really bad recovery, projectile is basically a non-factor, gets outranged heavily, Jabs win on the ground. Has a few tricks but nothing that isn't simple for Ike to counter.

- And after playing a CF main locally, I've seen some of the trickier stuff CF can pull off on Ike; my opinion was a bit biased here cause I'd only played mediocre/bad CFs before.

- As long as you play smart, Jigglypuff can have a very hard time KOing you, while it can be very easy to KO Jiggs by comparison. The only thing to really watch out for is gimping, but I really haven't seen examples of Jiggs gimping Ike consistently enough for it to give a significant advantage in the MU.

 

[Ussi]

30-70
40-60
45-55 Watching San vs Gnes was lovely. Ike's just gotta learn to nanar
40-60
55-45
40-60 I haven't seen Marth do what it can in theory yet.. So gonna rely mainly on what i've witnessed in practice.
45-55
35-65 CG > Gimp... so stupid
50-50
40-60
40-60
50-50
50-50
45-55Again, relying on what i've witnessed/experienced in practice.
40-60
45-55
50-50
50 - 50
50-50
45-55
60-40
40-60
:shiek: 40-60
60-40
60-40
60-40
55-45
50-50
50-50
60-40
55-45
My friends - Your Friends
55-45
60-40
55-45
45-55
55-45
60-40
60-40
65-35




We got better :D... only thing i made worse was DDD

Edit: O_o i had Yoshi at 60-40 for some reason

 

[Renegade TX2000]

I disagree with some of these mu's

the only mu's that are in our favor is luigi/ganondorf/zelda everything else is either 5/5 or in their favor or by a bit.

 

[Nysyarc]

I disagree with some of these mu's

the only mu's that are in our favor is luigi/ganondorf/zelda everything else is either 5/5 or in their favor or by a bit.

Well, feel free to post your numbers on the MUs and I can add it to the data, but we're using the general consensus of every Ike main based on the mathematical average of everyone's input.

 

[theeboredone]

Nothing against Ren, but I wouldn't feel comfortable having his numbers averaged into ours considering he...

1. Doesn't post here often, so we don't even know what he is up to.
2. Not sure how often he plays Ike still.
3. He mains Snake