A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

DeLux · Oct 17, 2011

Yeah, I'm not sure where the misconception came from

I've repeatedly said something like: of the people who voted in the top 100, it consistently fell to about 70/30 splits. But there was between 20-35% nonparticipation throughout

Doom even misquoted that in the blog he made for his poll. I asked him to change it but he declined in doing that saying it wasn't relevant.

mikeHAZE · Oct 17, 2011

LOL there goes that.

New video will be up sometime this week.

SaveMeJebus · Oct 18, 2011

AlphaZealot said:
Tons of stages are banned in Melee basically because TO's feel like it. They may try to back it up with something like "it isn't conducive to competitive play" but really many of the stages banned in Melee are done so simply because, well, people don't like them.

This is not parallel to MK. People have 'not liked' MK for a long, long time. In fact, MK has lost the public polls about getting him banned for quite some time.

This over simplifies how rules are made though. In the case of the MK ban, for example:
-Statistics from multiple sources, most showing huge dominance/unparalleled success for MK
-Years of said dominance across every ruleset in NA
-Multiple public polls all in favor of the ban
-Previous BBR poll in favor of ban
-Information and discussion from the BBR relayed to the URC so their opinion(s) were taken into account
-Talking with top players, the majority of which also support a ban
-A current public poll here with 75% in favor of ban, and a public poll from AiB with 73% in favor of the ban

So, if all of this existed for, say, turning team attack off, then sure. Heres the thing though: it doesn't, which is why team attack is on and will stay on. These things (the above) do not occur unless there is something clearly wrong with the status quo/a current mechanic/etc. If it were a simple decision, it would not be divisive and would not have taken so much painstaking work (on behalf of some) and years to have occurred.

http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=119467

You made this blog so I'm pretty sure you know the results. Most of the players there wanted RC and Brinstar banned with or without MK banned. So why did you guys go and ban MK before you tested what would happen in tournament with these stages banned?

John12346 · Oct 18, 2011

Of all the people who voted MK to get banned, only about 50%, more or less, wanted RC or Brinstar banned.

Player-1 · Oct 18, 2011

^^^^^

this, past BBR polls of MK banned were close to 50% as well and he wasn't banned. Not only that, but we don't do something on majority opinion alone, MK has a lot of other reasons to be banned. RC does not, brinstar is kind of in the middle.

Flayl · Oct 18, 2011

Isn't RC "proven" to make air camping too easy? How is it less bannable than Brinstar?

SaveMeJebus · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
Of all the people who voted MK to get banned, only about 50%, more or less, wanted RC or Brinstar banned.

Yeah but you are not including the players that wanted to ban those stages whether or not MK was banned

@ P-1, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13493662&postcount=301

John12346 · Oct 18, 2011

That's because MK makes those stages virtually broken via his own existence...

However, MK is not a reason to ban a stage, we've been over this. There has to be something janky with the stage itself.

SaveMeJebus · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
That's because MK makes those stages virtually broken via his own existence...

However, MK is not a reason to ban a stage, we've been over this. There has to be something janky with the stage itself.

But these players voted to ban those stages even if MK did get banned.

John12346 · Oct 18, 2011

No... Tearbear counted them up.

Of all of the people who assumed MK was banned, only ~50%(don't remember the exact numbers) of these such people voted to ban Brinstar and RC.

SaveMeJebus · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
No... Tearbear counted them up.

Of all of the people who assumed MK was banned, only ~50%(don't remember the exact numbers) of these such people voted to ban Brinstar and RC.

The percentages of those stages were at about 57% for the ban if MK was banned. Maybe we should do a poll on SWF now since MK will no longer effect a players vote

Sorto · Oct 18, 2011

I find it funny that the ratios of the characters played by the urc do not reflect the ratios of characters played by the competitive community. The fact that none of them play mk, shows that the members must have had some similar feelings about him before creating the urc. It was like let's take a random sample of players that don't match or reflect the larger sample of tournament players and ask them to make a ruleset. They lack representation! Its like our government only surveying people from the south and asking them to make laws. The sample doesn't reflect enough of the community. The limiting factor of the urc is the membership lacks diversity so of course they can't see out of there own lil box. But do you really expect them to? The truth is an intelligent community should be able to think for themselves. Create rulesets for your tournies that you think are legitimate. Don't just abide by the urc rules because they colored it in pretty letters and stickied it! Seriously! It is only a guideline. And it should be treated as such. And it should not be called a ruleset but a ruleset guideline or something, just saying.

Ussi · Oct 18, 2011

Except its not a guideline, its the standard for tourneys.

2nd, TOs decide the rules of THEIR tourneys in the end. And those TOs decided for THEIR tourneys and anyone who wants to follow them they will do this.

Sorto · Oct 18, 2011

Ussi said:
Except its not a guideline, its the standard for tourneys.

2nd, TOs decide the rules of THEIR tourneys in the end. And those TOs decided for THEIR tourneys and anyone who wants to follow them they will do this.

Perhaps a group of players who disagree with the mk ban should create another ruleset. And be backed by big name players and other tos so there ruleset can be backed. There def enough big name players who believe mk should be legal and perhaps disagree with the timer, lgl, or stages. I know for one they could get mew2kings backing. But there are def enough big name players who disagree that they could make another ruleset or ruleset guideline.

Ussi · Oct 18, 2011

except 75% of the community will go to the mk-banned events. Eventually the 25% of pro-mk will probably want to play for more money... and more than just MK dittos

Sorto · Oct 18, 2011

Ussi said:
except 75% of the community will go to the mk-banned events. Eventually the 25% of pro-mk will probably want to play for more money... and more than just MK dittos

Or perhaps the 75% will find something new to wine about and just make there previous judgements laughable. I think the attendance of an mk tournament with a revised ruleset under more notable players would def have decent attendance. Doesn't more then 25 percent of the community play mk, I mean we already got most of those players attending. And it wont just be mk dittos. A lot of non mk top players disagree with the ban. Also it depends of the quality of player that backs each ruleset that show how each will turnout. I think if top players and tos that disagree with the ban created a revised rulset with mk legal and revised stages and timer and ledge grab rules then they could get an ample turnout. Based on the communities distaste with other rules besides mk legality, and a if they got a better level of player backing.

John12346 · Oct 18, 2011

I'm not getting into this argument, but Sorto, only 11.69% of Brawl players use MK in tournament play. A mere 7.94% actually main him.

Sorto · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
I'm not getting into this argument, but Sorto, only 11.69% of Brawl players use MK in tournament play. A mere 7.94% actually main him.

12% of the players play him and he is over centralizing?

SaveMeJebus · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
I'm not getting into this argument, but Sorto, only 11.69% of Brawl players use MK in tournament play. A mere 7.94% actually main him.

Then why was overcentralization one of the reasons for banning MK?

mikeHAZE · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
I'm not getting into this argument, but Sorto, only 11.69% of Brawl players use MK in tournament play. A mere 7.94% actually main him.

wait, what's this 18.99% then?

John12346 · Oct 18, 2011

The 11.69% and 7.94% figures are straight from Rajam's national PR charts. 18.99% is from Ripple's data, and it shows the relative amount of usage MK receives in tournament play. MK is used by 1 in every 10 people, yet is used once in every 5 matches, in other words.

It's still a case of overcentralization, because the relative amount of usage for every other character is a LOT lower than what MK has.

JTsm · Oct 18, 2011

Hey guys, just want to drop by and leave this link just right hurrrrrrr:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312811

It's about forming an anti-ban committee.

B.A.M. · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
I'm not getting into this argument, but Sorto, only 11.69% of Brawl players use MK in tournament play. A mere 7.94% actually main him.

This is what pisses me off. None of these numbers were ever brought up and people had to find it themselves. This ish is so stupid. Community gauged everything on a bunch of numbers they probably didnt even attempt to read, let alone understand.

This community pisses me off. How freakin sketchy is this. And the whole damn URC claimed they banned MK cuz he was over-centralized. THIS is why people mock our community. Because instead of getting together and learning about this game, instead of attempting to learn tactics even though tech skill is needed, instead of knowing MUs in a fighting game, everyone sits and complains. People write idiotic blogs about furries, male players assault women in the community, and everyone is so damn conceited about being good at the game that they flat out reject the effort top MK players have put into this game. People flat out reject the discussions M2K, Ally, Anti, Tyrant have in order to better the character. This is seriously freakin stupid. Wake up Brawl community; you have what could be a decent game going to **** because you made it so. Dont blame MK; blame yourselves.

Player-1 · Oct 18, 2011

Flayl said:
Isn't RC "proven" to make air camping too easy? How is it less bannable than Brinstar?

I don't see a problem with air camping, and I don't know what you mean by "proven to make air camping too easy"

SaveMeJebus said:
Yeah but you are not including the players that wanted to ban those stages whether or not MK was banned

@ P-1, http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13493662&postcount=301

I have no idea what that link is supposed to mean...? In any case, I disagree with AZ saying theoretically nothing is broken on that stage though if that makes any difference.

Flayl · Oct 18, 2011

Player-1 said:
I don't see a problem with air camping, and I don't know what you mean by "proven to make air camping too easy"

I have no idea what that link is supposed to mean...? In any case, I disagree with AZ saying theoretically nothing is broken on that stage though if that makes any difference.

The multiple sets that have an MK timing someone out on Cruise, which can also be done by Wario and G&W.

John12346 · Oct 18, 2011

Okay, if you guys REALLY want to say MK isn't overcentralizing, then you're going to have to explain where MK got almost half of all of 2011's tournament money from.

- The original reasoning was that "Everyone uses MK, of course he's going to get all of the money!" AKA overcentralization.
- The alternative reasoning was that "Mew2King wins like a billion million percent of all of MK's money!" which is wrong because I showed how he's not even making a significant proportion of MK's money(17% or something, where Snake's and Diddy's top players are winning something like 25%-35% for their characters).

If it's neither of the above two factors, then it's character dominance; the point pro-ban MOST wants to prove.

Player-1 · Oct 18, 2011

I don't see anything wrong with timing someone out either except for "it's boring", and no, they really can't time people out too well unless you're some crappy character like ganon. Learn the stage.

Flayl · Oct 18, 2011

Player-1 said:
I don't see anything wrong with timing someone out either except for "it's boring", and no, they really can't time people out too well unless you're some crappy character like ganon. Learn the stage.

Okay, why is "learn the stage" more applicable to Rainbow Cruise than Brinstar?

not to mention getting timed out by MK/G&W/Wario has little or nothing to do with "learning the stage" but whatever.

C.J. · Oct 18, 2011

SaveMeJebus said:
Then why was overcentralization one of the reasons for banning MK?

Don't know for sure, so don't quote me, but it was less about everyone using him and more so about he was overcentralizing among money winning characters, which is kind of an odd point, but, whatever. Not my argument, I don't care. Don't respond to this either Jebus, I really don't want to discuss something that I don't care about.

B.A.M. said:
THIS is why people mock our community.

Uhh, no. Definitely not. People mock our community because we change the game from it's package with little to no proof showing that it is necessary. We started out without items and never tested to see if we could leave some on without them being detrimental to gameplay. It's because we ban so many stages that *might* not have to be banned. It's because we have rules in our ruleset that are completely external (LGL being the main one). It's because people want to ban things specifically because they're "gay" and "cheap" such as DDD's infinites. And actually, the majority of other fighting game communities were very pleased to see MK being banned. The majority of the people who responded on SRK (excluding people who just posted to flame brawl) were of the opinion that if anything, banning MK should have happened SOONER than it did.

Are they right or wrong, couldn't tell you, don't care. However, they don't mock our community for things such as banning MK. They mock it for things like our banning of items, stages, desire to ban "gay" things, and because we are willing to actively impose external rules on our game in order to keep it the way we want instead of the way the game was made.

Flayl said:
The multiple sets that have an MK timing someone out on Cruise, which can also be done by Wario and G&W.

Why is that bad? Because it's dumb or cheap? It's a counterpick, deal with it @ the part about G&W/Wario being able to time someone out there.

@ the MK part, it's MK, I ignore arguments that have him as a focal point because you can argue he breaks SV; so if you want to ban it on the premise of MK breaking it, ban every PS1, SV, BF, and Delphino as well.

EDIT:

Flayl said:
Okay, why is "learn the stage" more applicable to Rainbow Cruise than Brinstar?

Brinstar acid is largely random (which level of rising it stops at) whereas RC is on a set track.
So randomness can be planned around but not "learned" while a set track can be both.

Player-1 · Oct 18, 2011

Flayl said:
Okay, why is "learn the stage" more applicable to Rainbow Cruise than Brinstar?

not to mention getting timed out by MK/G&W/Wario has little or nothing to do with "learning the stage" but whatever.

Brinstar is random, RC isn't. And yes it does have something to do with learning the stage, lol.

SaveMeJebus · Oct 18, 2011

John12346 said:
Okay, if you guys REALLY want to say MK isn't overcentralizing, then you're going to have to explain where MK got almost half of all of 2011's tournament money from.

- The original reasoning was that "Everyone uses MK, of course he's going to get all of the money!" AKA overcentralization.
- The alternative reasoning was that "Mew2King wins like a billion million percent of all of MK's money!" which is wrong because I showed how he's not even making a significant proportion of MK's money(17% or something, where Snake's and Diddy's top players are winning something like 25%-35% for their characters).

If it's neither of the above two factors, then it's character dominance; the point pro-ban MOST wants to prove.

What the hell does money have to do with anything? If we had a tournament with a million dollars going to first and a Snake won the tournament, would we ban Snake?

If you take out every other character's top players, I think it's only fair you should take them out completely. This means any money they won with any other character used by that player.

Judo777 · Oct 18, 2011

B.A.M. said:
This is what pisses me off. None of these numbers were ever brought up and people had to find it themselves. This ish is so stupid. Community gauged everything on a bunch of numbers they probably didnt even attempt to read, let alone understand.

This community pisses me off. How freakin sketchy is this. And the whole damn URC claimed they banned MK cuz he was over-centralized. THIS is why people mock our community. Because instead of getting together and learning about this game, instead of attempting to learn tactics even though tech skill is needed, instead of knowing MUs in a fighting game, everyone sits and complains. People write idiotic blogs about furries, male players assault women in the community, and everyone is so damn conceited about being good at the game that they flat out reject the effort top MK players have put into this game. People flat out reject the discussions M2K, Ally, Anti, Tyrant have in order to better the character. This is seriously freakin stupid. Wake up Brawl community; you have what could be a decent game going to **** because you made it so. Dont blame MK; blame yourselves.

What about the good players that didn't put tons of time into MK, and instead just picked him up cause they got tired of losing to him, and then instantly became top threats in their region?

The really sad part about the post I just made is I already realize that the second anyone asks me for an example I'm gonna eventually get "well they are from the midwest so they are bad so no one cares" since my only examples would be near by.

M@v · Oct 18, 2011

Judo777 said:
The really sad part about the post I just made is I already realize that the second anyone asks me for an example I'm gonna eventually get "well they are from the midwest so they are bad so no one cares" since my only examples would be near by.

And this is one thing I can't stand about the community. For lack of better words, the "Smugness" of some regions compared to others.

Masky · Oct 19, 2011

..........

Player-1 · Oct 19, 2011

no.

10 no's

Masky · Oct 19, 2011

..........

C.J. · Oct 19, 2011

Masky said:
Wut? But aren't walkoffs banned because of Dedede?

Not in the least like P-1 said. I have no idea why that misconception is still around.

Walkoffs are banned because gameplay is likely to degenerate into walkoff camping. Walkoff camping, while it is a skill, it is not a skill we particularly care to test and takes away from other skill sets that we do want to test.

Player-1 · Oct 19, 2011

Masky said:
Excellent response by a URC member to a sincere question from the community.

thank you.

Masky · Oct 19, 2011

..........

John12346 · Oct 19, 2011

C.J. said:
Walkoffs are banned because gameplay is likely to degenerate into walkoff camping. Walkoff camping, while it is a skill, it is not a skill we particularly care to test and takes away from other skill sets that we do want to test.

Masky, just respond to this, lol. This is the reasoning for walkoff stages being banned.

A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

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