A URC members thoughts on the Metaknight Ban

[AlphaZealot]

[You made this blog so I'm pretty sure you know the results. Most of the players there wanted RC and Brinstar banned with or without MK banned. So why did you guys go and ban MK before you tested what would happen in tournament with these stages banned?

MK still dominates US tournaments where such stages are banned.

 

[Judo777]

So if we just want to see who is better at smash............ Why not host coin tournaments? I mean there is absolutely nothing wrong with coin matches, its just not what we want to test.

 

[Judo777]

@ C.J: banning MK was done not due to the character brokeness but "MK dittos not being fun and the character is gay and theres not enough variety." Thats what I was referring to. You and I are saying the same thing. Read after I made the "mocking" statement.

@Judo: A ton of top players pick up characters fairly easily. Not to mention hes a Chun Li esque top tier due to a few defensive options that havent become too popular yet. Im still going to say there are some options people just dont know how to punish properly with MK yet. I know you do not believe that, and I know you believe everyones best MU is MK. However, Tyrant, Mike and I go through vids every now and then, and theres still a ton of issues with how ppl deal with some MK tactics. Again like I said top players who dominate their region can usually pick up any top tier for a bit and start dominating. Smart play just goes a long way. Its also a ton easier when you have the best player base by far constantly improving the characters metagame. Makes it easier for you to find in depth details on how to use the character, strong tactics, and converse with other top players to get your MK in solid condition. I really believe a ton of people underestimate that fact.

I don't underestimate that fact at all. I am aware of this. However anyone that thinks that tier don't play a huge role is equally ignorant. MK has lots of stuff that is punishable and exploitable, just not all the time....... One of the biggest challenges is that MK tactics are exploitable but only given great reaction time, or a really hard read. Great player exploit this all the time. But they can't do it forever.

And the only problem i have with your post is that YES MK IS EVERYONE'S strongest MU at top levels. Like there is a significant difference in character knowledge from MK over everyone else. I have a decent reputation for being able to play everyone. I can play all of the top tiers (except IC's but they are coming along) with relative proficiency and give high level players like Kel, Kryzstedez (people who I have sat down with and played matches) and such a decent fight (I obviously don't win all the time but I can take games and such). However of those top tiers whenever I switch over to MK the tide swings drastically from when I was playing Diddy or Falco. Kel and Kryz know the MK MU sooooooooooo much better than any other MU that it is really one sided comparatively.

Immediately you might think that maybe my MK is just worse than my Diddy and Falco however through some experimental tourney play at smaller tourneys I have discovered that MK is probably my second best character (besides Sheik obviously and hes not far behind considering I have put like no time into him). I'm sure I am no different from other high-mid high level players that literally sit around all the time trying to think of ways to get around MK's tactics and trying to figure out what to do in a hundred different situations with MK. I have literally practiced against MK and experimented the most insane tactics to get around MK. And while I have pretty good success vs MK in tourney he is still the character I lose to more than any other (except maybe Kirby.......).

And for any MK in the whole nation to say that he has more Sheik experience than I have MK experience and MU knowledge is absolutely insane.

Crap this was a double post? sry guys

 

[SaveMeJebus]

MK still dominates US tournaments where such stages are banned.

But you guys never tried increasing the timer (eight minutes doesn't even make any sense) or at least, lowering the stocks and leaving the timer as is.

 

[Sorto]

If you want a metaknight legal ruleset and have ideas for it post here:

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=312904

 

[DeLux]

But you guys never tried increasing the timer (eight minutes doesn't even make any sense) or at least, lowering the stocks and leaving the timer as is.

I don't understand what the timer has to do with AZ's post stating MK's dominance across all stages even the one's that aren't RC/Brinstar.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I don't understand what the timer has to do with AZ's post stating MK's dominance across all stages even the one's that aren't RC/Brinstar.

One of the reasons I heard for the MK ban was that it was so easy for him to run out the timer and that his LGL was too high. Well, this solves those problems. I was just trying to point out that they didn't try everything they could to save the character and instead they just banned him

 

[Tesh]

We also didn't try banning his specials. Mods even locked my thread about it. Conspiracy I say.

 

[C.J.]

That's a big part of the point though Jebus... you shouldn't HAVE to try and "save" a character. If he needs "saving" he's too good.

Whether you agree or not is 100% irrelevant. Don't argue that part, lol. It is VERY widely accepted that you cut the problem at the source, not try to put band-aids on it and hope it works.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The band-aids are already there (for every character). We just need a perfect fit

 

[Sorto]

Exactly. The rules jebus is discussing aren't mk only. They apply to the whole cast. A ten minute timer/ lower ledge grab affects the whole cast not just mk. Watch videos with will (dk) vs richbrown(oli). Lgl and timer changes could have and most likely would have changed the outcome of that match. And there was no mk involved.

 

[Tesh]

A pikmin pull limit could have changed the outcome of the match right before it.

 

[DeLux]

One of the reasons I heard for the MK ban was that it was so easy for him to run out the timer and that his LGL was too high. Well, this solves those problems. I was just trying to point out that they didn't try everything they could to save the character and instead they just banned him

But again, the timer has nothing to do with the stages

Not saying you're necessarily wrong, but it doesn't address or rebut his point and just seeks to misdirect the argument flow to something unrelated.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

A pikmin pull limit could have changed the outcome of the match right before it.

Can every character pluck pikmin? No. Can every character grab the ledge? Yes

 

[Sorto]

A pikmin pull limit could have changed the outcome of the match right before it.

True. But my change isn't targetted at one character like yours

 

[Tesh]

So punishing everyone for the sins of 1 is okay? You support an LGL on ganondorf and Sonic?

 

[SaveMeJebus]

So punishing everyone for the sins of 1 is okay? You support an LGL on ganondorf and Sonic?

We've already seen what could happen without a ledge grab limit (Will vs. ADHD and Will vs. Rich). Sure, players can get better at combating planking but there is also nothing stopping the plankers from getting better at planking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izKkjqNmqF4

 

[Mew2King]

The MK players that are dominating these tournaments with RC and Brinstar off are winning because they are BETTER PLAYERS. Ally has proved himself many times with many characters, so has Anti, I've proved myself more than any other smash player overall by a long shot, and Nairo is just a really really really good MK, either 4th or 5th in the whole world. At events such as Ktar, all of these top 4 (or top 3 and 5th depending if you think tyrant or nairo is better) are present since they all happen to live within the same region (and ally lives very close to NY)

But if MK wins, that means ban him (No possible way they DESERVE to win or anything.... -_- ) If he loses that means the metagame is healthy.

^ smashboards logic

 

[C.J.]

Exactly. The rules jebus is discussing aren't mk only. They apply to the whole cast. A ten minute timer/ lower ledge grab affects the whole cast not just mk. Watch videos with will (dk) vs richbrown(oli). Lgl and timer changes could have and most likely would have changed the outcome of that match. And there was no mk involved.

I'm so tired of that game being brought up. That was the FIRST time players had been exposed to DK's planking. Shut up about it, holy crap. And you know what, so Olimar can't beat DK's planking, who cares? It means it's a bad match-up. Why is it more fair for DK to have a bad MU vs Olimar than Olimar vs DK? You're against it because you do not BELIEVE it was fair/fun to watch/whatever. Either way, you're arguing subjectively. That match is a terrible example of anything except for a tactic that works mainly on novelty and MAYBE a bad match-up. It's not a big deal.

You're right, a ten minute timer does affect the whole cast! So does a 6 minute one. Why are you pushing for a ten minute timer? If your response includes either something about MK, characters able to time out, the fact that you want people to approach, or anything along those lines, don't bother responding. Anything like that is either about MK (which you can't do otherwise it goes against the initial point/easy to refute) or it is subjective.
*Spoiler alert* There is not a single objective reason to change the timer. 8 minutes is arbitrary too, this is true. However, it's the status quo so burden of proof is on you.

We've already seen what could happen without a ledge grab limit (Will vs. ADHD and Will vs. Rich). Sure, players can get better at combating planking but there is also nothing stopping the plankers from getting better at planking

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izKkjqNmqF4

Except there is something that can stop plankers from getting better at planking. Planking, at its best, is highly punishable by most characters and must be done as a fixed pattern. You can't get better than the best the game will allow, and even then it's punishable. However, creativity will allow you to beat planking (that isn't MK) and even at it's best, it is still beatable.

Also, why would you post a video from 08? That proves nothing except novelty effect.

 

[B.A.M.]

lol if Rich knew how to beat DK planking it wouldve been different. Which is saddening because a ton of the community automatically labeled it as broken without even doing some research. Which is a big thing this community does.

@ Judo: Honestly, I think a ton of people believe they know the MU better than think they do for one. but of course thats just opinion. Something I will say though is your MK doing well shouldnt be surprising. For one, how to pick up MK is easy (not to master!). No doubt about that. his normals just like Chun are awesome. He also probably the one characters you've seen fight more than the rest, and that stuff does rub off. Just like Yun and Ken, Diddy, Falco, and Snake arent as easy to pick up. That doesnt mean at top level they dont hang. Thats just the reality of the situation.

@John12341: So M2K making 17% of the money isnt a lot. But 12% of people playing MK is....... alright man. one person making nearly 1/5 of the money isnt a ton. Of course not. cuz that would make sense. One damn person out of hundreds.

@M2K: Thank you

@C.J: Thank you

@Tesh: Shut up

 

[Sorto]

So punishing everyone for the sins of 1 is okay? You support an LGL on ganondorf and Sonic?

That shouldn't cause a problem for them. Are those characters good on the ledge? They wont play on the edge and go past the limit because that is not a good position for them. Its not like the limit will be so small that characters will accidently pass it. It will be enough that a character must be purposely trying to abuse ledge grab invincibility for stalling and unfair options to pass it. And even if they pass it, it still must go to time. People with unfair ledge tactics are being punished so to speak. But everyone is being effected by it.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

I'm so tired of that game being brought up. That was the FIRST time players had been exposed to DK's planking. Shut up about it, holy crap. And you know what, so Olimar can't beat DK's planking, who cares? It means it's a bad match-up. Why is it more fair for DK to have a bad MU vs Olimar than Olimar vs DK? You're against it because you do not BELIEVE it was fair/fun to watch/whatever. Either way, you're arguing subjectively. That match is a terrible example of anything except for a tactic that works mainly on novelty and MAYBE a bad match-up. It's not a big deal.

You're right, a ten minute timer does affect the whole cast! So does a 6 minute one. Why are you pushing for a ten minute timer? If your response includes either something about MK, characters able to time out, the fact that you want people to approach, or anything along those lines, don't bother responding. Anything like that is either about MK (which you can't do otherwise it goes against the initial point/easy to refute) or it is subjective.
*Spoiler alert* There is not a single objective reason to change the timer. 8 minutes is arbitrary too, this is true. However, it's the status quo so burden of proof is on you.

It's not a bad match up. The match up would always come down to who ever has the percent/stock lead

 

[C.J.]

You know what other MUs are like that? Diddy vs every bad character. Marth vs every character w/o a huge or disjointed hitbox. MK vs... everyone.

You know what those are called traditionally? Bad MUs.

 

[Tesh]

OKay, lets put a spotdodge limit on Ganondorf and Sonic too. They don't have good spotdodges so they won't abuse it and accidentally go over the limit. The limit is there to deal with Link, DDD and Falco and those are the only ones that will be affected.

Ganondorf grabbing the ledge 100 times isn't broken. It shouldn't be limited. If you lose to it thats YOUR fault. You are basically saying its okay to nerf things because they are sub-optimal.

 

[Mew2King]

I can tell you straight up without lying, that DDD is -- SEVERELY -- disadvantaged against a planking GW, to the point that there is NO REASON for GW to NOT plank if he has a stock lead, or even a % lead. Mixing up ledge drop nairs and uairs gives him a huge, huge advantage. Without doing that it's very winnable for DDD but with planking it is honestly just stupid. Maybe it's not 100% unbeatable, but nothing is, and the point is that there is NO REASON NOT TO DO IT. Falco would get -- ***** -- by a lot of planking characters if they could grab the ledge indefinitely. There should be a LGL regardless if MK is legal or not.

 

[B.A.M.]

Shut the hell up Tesh. All you do is make stupid extremes that justify nothing. Why do you make such bad arguments?
I dont mind you arguing your point but stop with the ridiculous logical thought process.

 

[C.J.]

I can tell you straight up without lying, that DDD is -- SEVERELY -- disadvantaged against a planking GW, to the point that there is NO REASON for GW to NOT plank if he has a stock lead, or even a % lead. Mixing up ledge drop nairs and uairs gives him a huge, huge advantage. Without doing that it's very winnable for DDD but with planking it is honestly just stupid. Maybe it's not 100% unbeatable, but nothing is, and the point is that there is NO REASON NOT TO DO IT. Falco would get -- ***** -- by a lot of planking characters if they could grab the ledge indefinitely. There should be a LGL regardless if MK is legal or not.

Sounds like bad MUs/bad character traits to me. Give snake an uptilt limit vs Jigglypuff. Unless you're arguing that some characters have more intrinsic worth than others. In which case, subjective, argument is a bad one.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

You know what other MUs are like that? Diddy vs every bad character. Marth vs every character w/o a huge disjointed hitbox. MK vs... everyone.

You know what those are called traditionally? Bad MUs.

No because without a LGL as long as Olimar keeps the lead, its almost impossible to bring it back. Once DK gets the lead, it's almost impossible to bring it back? name me one other MU that is like this?

 

[Tesh]

Do you have a counter argument or are you just going to get mad because I'm right?

Explain to me why its okay to nerf things for being bad. Reread his post and tell me why we should nerf bad characters because they share a basic function with a broken one.

 

[Sorto]

Why is everyone limiting specific characters? Planking has been shown to effect the metagame severly. It is the main thing that makes mk broken. Let's not ban peach bomber in melee. Let's ban peach because she can use it. Planking isn't stalling. But it is used as such a tactic. Plankers are trying to avoid conflict by abusing invincibility frames. They aren't trying to fight there trying to run the timer. In essence there trying to stall.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

Do you have a counter argument or are you just going to get mad because I'm right?

Explain to me why its okay to nerf things for being bad. Reread his post and tell me why we should nerf bad characters because they share a basic function with a broken one.

Explain to me why a character would want to remain on the ledge if it's not advantageous for him

 

[Sorto]

Do you have a counter argument or are you just going to get mad because I'm right?

Explain to me why its okay to nerf things for being bad. Reread his post and tell me why we should nerf bad characters because they share a basic function with a broken one.

And repeatedly spot dodging hasn't been shown to have any real effect on tourny outcomes.

 

[B.A.M.]

@Tesh:Spotdodging and planking arent the same. Thats why Tesh. Theres no point of a counter argument because every spot dodge is easily beaten. Planking is something strong for a ton of characters. Planking isnt that bad for Ganon lol. Planking in itself is a low risk tactic due to the abuse of invincibility frames.

@ Sorto: THANK YOU.

@Tesh: You are making a ridiculous assertion that has no bearing on the topic at hand. THATS why it bothers me. You always go off to some absurd comparison. Thats your argument all the time.

 

[Tesh]

Explain to me why a character would want to remain on the ledge if it's not advantageous for him

Explain to me why I would main Sonic if its not advantageous? Or punish a shield break with my jab? You are endorsing the limitation of poor decisions or non broken decisions(like managing RCO lag by trying to first hit your opponent away with Ganondorf)

And repeatedly spot dodging hasn't been shown to have any real effect on tourny outcomes.

Niether has Ganon ledge camping. Or Sonic planking. Which is exactly my point. Even if you think GnW or Pit or Marth need an LGL, its dumb to start limiting things that aren't damaging to the metagame.

I support limiting MK, but not limiting the entire cast because of MK. Did anyone ever ban the entire cast from pressing down B and mashing cstick up repeatedly? No, because its only a problem when 1 character does it. That is my issue with a universal LGL. You and Jebus are basically saying "well down b + cstick up is just a vertical spindash jump for sonic, so banning that wont affect the metagame".

 

[SaveMeJebus]

It's obvious that the ledge is the most advantageous position. If you had to choose between jumping back on stage and risking getting hit out again or staying on the ledge and waiting for your opponent to react with something you can punish, it's obvious what the best choice is

 

[Sorto]

@tesh: all we are saying is that the rules wont effect sonic or other characters. Thus as a rule it will only effect the characters it is meant to. I understand your argument. But planking is used to run the timer. It is truly a form of stalling and an effective one at that. It is not true stalling, but its main purpose is to stall. When peach did peach bomber in melee u cud always hit her. Not everyone but a fair amount of characters could. The thing is she wasn't bombing to be offensive, she was bombing to stall and hope someone would be dumb enought to go for here because they would be put in a severly disadvantaged position if they did. Similar to good planking characters. Peach bomber was more cut and dry as well.

 

[B.A.M.]

@TESH: NO LOL noone is saying that. Have you been planked out crazy by a Gdubs, pit or even silly ROB? Or DK? A ton of characters can make abuse of the ledge. Dont be silly.

However with that being said, I actually dont believe there should be a LGL for any character lol. Why? Because if you look at the frame data (even for MK as he cant buffer the ledge release action) theres things you can do to defend against these tactics. I just believe not enough people have put in the effort to figure out how. I mean you got a national lvl player getting owned by DK ( while he is the top DK) due to DK's planking lol. I really believe people underestimate how good it is to just grab the ledge in these scenarios and abuse your own invincibility frames. So in actuality I concur with you Tesh. I just like giving you a hard time because your arguments are pure nonsense.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

The same can be said for walk off camping. It's beatable. Maybe we should unban all the stages that have walk off camping.

 

[Tesh]

@ Jebus its also advantageous not to approach with Snake, but we don't ban that. Snake camping in the middle of the ****ing stage is harder to stop than Ganondorf planking the ledge. Its stupid to start limiting a weak strategy because people are afraid to read someone for a stagespike.

In any case, if there MUST be a global LGL, it needs to be much higher for non MKs. Even in the overused Rich Brown vs Will example. It took Will nearly 200 ledge grabs and it didn't go to time. Meanwhile MKs are timing out with under 20. There is a massive gap in how "broken" other characters ledge camps are. Anyone "abusing" the ledge all game with a non mk character will have to go over 100 grabs imo.

 

[Sorto]

@tesh. That is def up for discussion. And I can see varying lgl limits. If you feel there could be a fair ruleset, that keeps mk legal by all means post in that topic. All ideas are welcome to be heard there.