Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

unknown522 · Mar 7, 2012

Hmm. I remember having a discussion with armada, mango, and one other person (Amsah I think. Or ice maybe) at apex about reacting vs predicting and how just straight reaction is underrated and underused for things like edgeguarding and tech chasing. Especially by the lower leveled players. We all agreed.

KirbyKaze · Mar 7, 2012

You can have a really elaborate strategy that involves careful positioning, option coverage, neutralization of tech rolls, and precise movements.

Or you can just grab them because you see which way they're rolling (or not rolling). And not worry about all of the above.

Reaction so broken (if you can do it).

PGH Carroll · Mar 7, 2012

looking at their controller to see where they are teching is too pro.

knowing>reacting>predicting

Meneks · Mar 7, 2012

DJnicholasRAGE said:
looking at their controller to see where they are teching is too pro.

knowing>reacting>predicting

I always wondered if people actually did that

rokimomi · Mar 7, 2012

I just hit both sticks in random directions, even I don't know which way I'm teching

ShroudedOne · Mar 8, 2012

I've always thought that a purely reaction based style of play was the best. But it seems flawed, for some reason. Not sure why, though.

KirbyKaze · Mar 8, 2012

Reaction based play requires your move meet a certain speed threshold. Prediction based stuff therefore gives you options that you wouldn't have otherwise.

You have to think very hard about whether risking your combo is worth the consistent damage, however.

Ah, basic levels of game depth.

Reaction based stuff is generally stronger in this game.

Bones0 · Mar 8, 2012

Tell that to Falcon mains who spam throw -> guess tech stomp. :troll:

Meneks · Mar 8, 2012

Reacting is better because theres no sure 100% proven way to actually KNOW where your opponent is going, by reacting your opponent already made a move into the direction that they're going in so you just simply have to react to it

knightpraetor · Mar 8, 2012

i strongly disagree with predictive moves that totally give up all sense of pressure when they dno't have a chance to gimp or send them off stage..

thanks everyone...just reading my own words made me realize why i don't agree with marth using fthrow hard predict dair in place...if they tech away it's fine, but what if they tech roll in....hells no..not worth it..marth's pressure and spacing is totally lost and they are behind you......screw that

(wasted the entire night experimenting with that and should have just thought it through instead..ah well...)

Bones0 · Mar 8, 2012

Well you can fthrow and cover missed tech, tech in place, and tech roll behind you with dair on reaction (the back of his dair is certainly big enough). If they are by the ledge and don't slide off from the fthrow/bthrow you can cover all of their options. :D

stelzig · Mar 8, 2012

If the player is not capable of doing stuff on reaction very well (and knows this), then it makes perfect sense to still make some sort of read. Being realistic about your own abbilities is quite important too. Leave the work on reactive playstyles to your friendlies or matches that you are confident you have in the bag anyway and don't play above your abbilities in important matches. A person may be so bad at reacting that he ends up failing every time instead of half the time in 50:50 situations.

Playing on prediction probably also helps you learn people's habits faster. And knowing what to look out for/expect does help when you start adding in reaction and option coverage - I believe this is also what m2k means when he says "predict first, react second"

But of course working towards better reaction against every single thing in the game (that can realistically be reacted to) is ideal. This is extremely obvious.

Edit: Oddly enough I think it is much more common to think the other way around and do big and flashy play in friendlies, and go reactive and "boring" in serious games. This only really makes sense if you are actually good at reacting to the situation.

Fortress | Sveet · Mar 8, 2012

KirbyKaze said:
Reaction based stuff is generally stronger in this game.

Bones0 said:
Tell that to Falcon mains who spam throw -> guess tech stomp.

God have I tried. Theres a decently well respected one that still wont do this

Bing · Mar 8, 2012

I've been trying to refrain from using a prediction based system because I feel that If I can just learn from reactions, and get good at that, I think it would help me in the long run

KirbyKaze · Mar 9, 2012

Bones0 said:
Tell that to Falcon mains who spam throw -> guess tech stomp.

Falcon players are scrubs.

LuCKy · Mar 9, 2012

nininininininin

omgwtfToph · Mar 9, 2012

sup joey

goin to evo this year? lolz

MM me <3

Bing · Mar 9, 2012

So anyone got any tips for the Sheik Matchup?

I dont have much of an issue with combos sheiks... but I suck at the rest of the MU. Help me

KirbyKaze · Mar 9, 2012

Your problems sound extremely general and, based on my perception of your player level from playing you, you will benefit very little from specifics. If you benefit at all. So, instead, I'm going to give you a magic spell:

Search this thread --> Advanced Search --> Search by user --> Unknown522 / Lovage / etc. --> Key word: Sheik --> ?????

Bing · Mar 9, 2012

Sorry I know my question was fairly vague... I dont have much Sheik experience. Like.. I've been ***** by you, gone even with Yhii and ***** some guy at Apex named Twitch.

So like... I dunno. I just know I want to get better at this MU...

Should I nair shine or drillshine for the approach?

KirbyKaze · Mar 9, 2012

Search this thread --> Advanced Search --> Search by user --> Unknown522 / Lovage / etc. --> Key word: Sheik --> ?????

Bing · Mar 9, 2012

okay thanks David

KirbyKaze · Mar 9, 2012

Most general questions can be solved with that spell.

~Twitch~ · Mar 9, 2012

Bing said:
Sorry I know my question was fairly vague... I dont have much Sheik experience. Like.. I've been ***** by you, gone even with Yhii and ***** some guy at Apex named Twitch.

maaaan some scrub stole my name.

Bing · Mar 9, 2012

I dunno if he had the ~.. but his tag defs said Twitch... and I wrecked him <3

linkoninja · Mar 10, 2012

Hey guys I've been playing Fox recently and I feel I'm really starting to understand him as a character. I've been Shining pretty effectively and I use all his tools effectively. I'm decent basically
my question is now that I can do pretty much all the basics with Fox do I start learning how to get more technical like Wave-shine, all that other stuff or should I continue to practice the basics with Fox for a while? I still get stuck in my shine sometimes so that brings me to another question: on what frame do you jump to jump cancel shine, and when successfully hitting an opponent does this change when you jump? I can jump cancel empty shines like nothing but when I hit I get stuck every now and then.

Bones0 · Mar 10, 2012

You can JC shine on frame 4 if you don't hit anyone. Not sure what frame it is when you connect with someone's body or shield, but it is increased, so you have to wait a little longer. Just go into Training Mode vs. a CPU and use Starman on him to practice nair-shines, or you can play a lvl 1 CPU with your handicap at 1, his at 9, and Damage Ratio at .5 (or w/e the lowest is).

Someone should critique my vids.

FoxLisk · Mar 10, 2012

Bones0 said:
You can JC shine on frame 4 if you don't hit anyone. Not sure what frame it is when you connect with someone's body or shield, but it is increased, so you have to wait a little longer. Just go into Training Mode vs. a CPU and use Starman on him to practice nair-shines, or you can play a lvl 1 CPU with your handicap at 1, his at 9, and Damage Ratio at .5 (or w/e the lowest is).

Someone should critique my vids.

i think you misinterpreted his question. He was asking, as i understand it, on what frame you can jump, not on what frame you can shine again.

Bones0 · Mar 10, 2012

No, I knew what he meant. It's just a coincidence that shine and Fox's jump both last 3 frames. lol

[collapse=Shine]

Total: 39 (or more)
Hits: 1
Reflects: 4-21 or release+1
Jump cancelable whenever it reflects
Lag upon release: 19
Reflection lag: 19[/collapse]

Alch0ol · Mar 10, 2012

Hey guys I was wondering if anyone might critique some of my videos. The first one is verse a peach and the last one verse a falco. Both of the matches are pretty long because we did best of 7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGzE_gSbf9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXBgxqByk98

Engo · Mar 10, 2012

Is reacting always better than predicting? I feel like my fox is 80% reacting and the rest is predicting or doing small things that pressure the opponent into teching in certain directions.

Sinji · Mar 10, 2012

How do you edge guard DR. MArio?
what do you do when Ganon has you cornered at the edge?

advice plz

FoxLisk · Mar 10, 2012

Bones0 said:
No, I knew what he meant. It's just a coincidence that shine and Fox's jump both last 3 frames. lol

oh dang, i thought you could cancel shine faster than that. my mistake, good sir.

Crooked Crow · Mar 10, 2012

Bing said:
Sorry I know my question was fairly vague... I dont have much Sheik experience. Like.. I've been ***** by you, gone even with Yhii and ***** some guy at Apex named Twitch.

So like... I dunno. I just know I want to get better at this MU...

Should I nair shine or drillshine for the approach?

You've never gone even with my Sheik.

Bones0 · Mar 10, 2012

I smell a MM.

unknown522 · Mar 10, 2012

Bing said:
gone even with Yhii

Should I nair shine or drillshine for the approach?

Yhii said:
You've never gone even with my Sheik.

mmmmmmm money maaaaaaatch!!!

rjgbadger · Mar 10, 2012

Alch0ol said:
Hey guys I was wondering if anyone might critique some of my videos. The first one is verse a peach and the last one verse a falco. Both of the matches are pretty long because we did best of 7s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGzE_gSbf9o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXBgxqByk98

Its like you're permanently bound to using a ledgehop dair when your opponent is on stage.

Apasher · Mar 10, 2012

Not sure if this is asked/answered already, but what is the best way to edgeguard Marth?

Bones0 · Mar 10, 2012

Grab the ledge. Shine spike him during invincibility if he's below you. If not, JC the shine into a firestall. Repeat until he is about to up-B. Shine bair; if the shine misses, the bair should hit (at low %s you can DJ into shine for more KB). If he up-Bs onto the stage as you are stalling with Firefox shines, just LH a bair to knock him back off. Be ready for ground tech rolls and simply punish with fsmash (you should be close enough that you won't have to move).

Things to keep in mind that you will probably mess up when you try for the first time:

1. REACT to up-B. Don't get scared and roll. When you get good at managing your invincibility, you will rarely have to worry about it anyway. At really low %s, even if he hits you with the non-sweet spot, you can still easily LH out of the super low stun and bair him off.

2. REACT to side-Bs and DJ fair attempts. If you are managing your invincibility right, you should never be threatened by this. Right before he gets in range refresh your invincibility, then shine-bair (shine in case he FFs, bair in case he relied on hitting you or if he up-Bs). If he is too low to hit you with either move and doesn't have a DJ, DO NOT ROLL. REACT. If he side-Bs or DJ fairs you while you are invincible, obviously just shine spike (would still just shine-bair just in case you somehow miss the shine).

If he is recovering too high for any of the above to be guaranteed, guard the ledge without grabbing it. Be close enough that he cannot just fall to the ledge without getting baired. If he side-Bs, REACT with FH bair. Trades easily. Fair is harder to trade with, but only if you react really slow and he gets the low hitbox out. If they are ballsy enough to dair, either get to them with a bair before they get it out in time or shield it and bair OoS. If they air dodge perfectly, your bair will whiff, so FF to the ground asap before he does. Shine, or if you have time, bair/dsmash to knock him back off. Shine and bair are the best if you can hit him before he lands and regains his jump.

Basic Examples:
0:44, 3:00
3:10
1:15, 1:40
1:10

commonyoshi · Mar 11, 2012

So how should I DI Falco's pillaring? Right now I just hold left or right as he combos me across the stage.

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